Mornin

[Ned]

I think they don't like grown-ups.

Hey Sea, sorry mate. This kind of proves Wagon's point. We ramble. Now we've hijacked your hello and turned it into a Granny-rant.
About standard....

 

[Anglesachse]

WTG Ned and Wagon LMFAO

Hey, Sea mate. Like any one here will confirm, we are one great big f*ckin dysfunctional family :cool: Don`t you worry yourself lad, your gonna fit in just grand.

Besides, Grandmothers are the real "wicked witch of the west" my beast wouldn`t last 2 secs up against one of mine, but then there all dead, so either way i`m f*cked.

 

[sea]

Hijack away I don't mind. Thanks you guys for the warm welcome. It is reall appreciated. Sorry I'm a load awkward at all this, lol. P.S: That grandmother was a grade-A asshole. End of. What'd she expect the answer to be? And there was kids there too. Ridiculous.

They don't know I've got issues to deal with, and I keep it that way. In the end, I can understand where they are coming from, and they understand where I've been. Enough said. Now hand the beer over.

This is mainly what I have trouble with cause I can't understand, and they can't understand cause I can't talk to them. I don't mean to be so negative or nothin. This is the first time I have ever tried to sit down and write something like this. Guess I just wanna be honest. Sometimes I get this weird feeling that if I don't tell people my problems, I'm being dishonest and untruthful lol. Also, I'm heavily medicated which makes it much easier. :D

I wish I could just call up some buddies or something and sit and drink and talk but I can't. It'd go, call up, we'd sit there, they'd talk, maybe they'd talk war or maybe they'd talk something normal, but I'd be there weird and awkward and drunk, trying to either: Pretend like I'm a regular, normal person, or pretend like I have the same view of war so we don't punch eachother.

I've more or less learned to live with the fact that people don't get it. (would I wish that on them?)

This is good to remember, I do think like that a lot. It's hard to be so zen when you feel so disconnected though isn't it. I'm not a super zen person, I try to be and try to you know, rise above it and be decent. But it is hard to do I guess cause the only person around me who knows anything at all is my therapist and some of the nurses in the VA when I went in. I hallucinate quite a bit and have violent dreams.

I'm trying to work on talking to people more casually about some stuff, look at people in the media who talk about it and are received alright, and I've been received alright the few times I've told anybody, I've even said it on the PTSD Forum, in the trauma diaries. People tend to think I am suspicious cause I don't answer simple questions you know? How long were you in Iraq, why'd you get divorced, why don't you know your kid, blah. You know. It's hard. So I don't answer and people think I'm hiding something.

On the PTSD site I have a f*ckin huge diary lol. This, is the hard part. Been tryin to come here for f*ckin 7 months and haven't got the nerve. Sometimes I sit around and miss my job and miss all that crap, you know? It is the weirdest feeling. But then I just get all sad and weepy and obnoxious. Then I come here and read all the forums that guests have access to and feel all weird and stupid and then think about my dumb therapist and how he wants me to do all this crap any way, so said what the hell this time.

I have a lot of resentment toward the military I think. Talking to military triggers me a lot. Think that is why I get so pissed off all the time. Projection or something. This is totally triggering me cause I am scared it will turn into every other interaction I've had. So far y'all have been really nice and welcoming which, is good, a lot.

Sorry, don't mean to be all negative. My life is actually pretty good, I think I just find reasons to get all angsty and crisis-y with no point. I don't want to or mean to but it's like I constantly generate crap in my head to be upset about when my life around me is perfectly fine. I'm not in combat any more. I'm not at my dad's any more. I'm not, where I was, I'm not there any more. I'm home and my family is here.

Except I sit in the f*cking closet all day and literally ignore them all day and play Battlefield 2 (sort of) online all day and barely go out even to eat and they think I hate them, but I don't, I am just scared to be around them because I am so f*cking alien, and I don't want to hurt them. I feel like I'm 60 feet tall and the world is made of clay and I'm stomping around all over it when I talk to people. Why can't I just go out and be normal you know. Chris (my wife/ex-wife/idk) makes fun of me cause I hide medical supplies around the house and take all my crap with me to the washroom and am weirdly OCD and strange about doing things, and I hoard things, and stuff. It's just weird, people think I am weird.

Shit, my turn to ramble! :speechless: :geek:

 

[Jimmy1]

Welcome mate. Honestly, we can say, We know how you feel. I felt like an outsider on the other forum and when I first came here in 09 i did not post a hell of a lot. The guys that used to hang around the forum then helped me out.
Its only become busy here over the last twelve months. In the past it could go a whole month or so without anyone posting.

As an idea, if you want to just lurk in the background, every month or so, just hit the like button or something like that on a post and it won't delete you. Its just a way of deleting inactive accounts.

You are by no means a woos. I would hate to be a medic. Think of the guys you saved. And the guys on here are from all over the place. We have Zoomies (airforce boys), Rangers, Marines, SF guys you name it, and they range in conflicts from Nam to the present and also in some places we are still not allowed to talk about.

None of the guys here really talk about what keeps them awake at night. All we do is share info on how to keep a relatively sane mind and survive during the day.

If you want to share, just share. If you want to rant, just rant. And I even put a thread at 'The Bar' for drunken rants.

As for your symptoms, there normal mate. OCD, being protective of things, isolating yourself. Its all protective measures your mind is putting into place.

My therapist told me I needed to get out and socialise too. I ignored her. I hate going out.

And you need to buy Battlefield 3. I am playing modern warfare 3 atm.

Good luck mate and if you have any questions, ask away.

 

[Anglesachse]

people think I am weird.

thats just down to the fact that "they" are not "us" we ain`t weird Sea mate. If any thing we are like broken toys, thrown out to the dump. so we build our own world, and "we" are all welcome there because "we" are all normal in our world.

In our world, shit OCD is second nature mate, as is siting in little dark spaces, We hate being around those who love us, but yet we have problems living without them. and as for resentment to the military, I think we all have that as well, but funnily, we would all go back in a heart beat.

And the biggest thing (I think) that gets us wound up, is people giving us the "Coochy Coo" treatment, or asking questions that "We" know you just don`t ask.

 

[Zipperhead]

Sea, at the end of the day, people only know what you choose to share or show them. I still talk with my old buddies. It's an awkward thing. I don't want them to know, and so I play the cards tight. I know a few of them know, but I doubt they would ever say anything. Hell, I even told 1 person thinking the word would get around. Still nothing. If you did your job well, then the people who matter don't care. And the people who don't matter, well, don't matter. Enough said. At the end of the day you have to ask yourself, do I care what so and so thinks? If the answer is yes, I'll bet that person will give you a fair shake. If the answer is no, then who cares? I was a good tank commander. The medics that pulled my fat ass out of that tank were good medics. We all had a job to do. And you know what? That job was to do what the politicians told us to do. Soldiers do not cause wars.

 

[sea]

A while ago there was somebody who came into the PTSD Forum chat and talked about how soldiers were murderers and they needed to take responsibility for being murderers and I was a murderer too if I was a soldier, like just complete f*cking judgment you know. I f*cking hate people who shove it in our face like we don't know what war is like. Yes, we get it, we were in a war. We know! We were there!

I don't know. I'm going to go out on a limb and try to talk about some shit. Which seems not to be common here as I'm told it's mostly about symptoms, so I guess read with caution. Now that I think about it, it's not related to any point that was made at all. Guess I am just tired of pretending and hiding and sitting in groups of people and having to pretend like I am the same as they are. Just did that in the VA for a f*cking week a while ago.

Hell maybe people here will hate me too, I don't know. This is a public place. But I guess everywhere else is public too. When I was in the VA I got called a traitor. I'm fluent in Arabic and I've studied the Qur'an. I understand Islam and I understand the precepts of Al-Qaeda. Because I understand without immediate condemnation, I'm considered a traitor. People tell me I have Stockholm syndrome or furthermore decline to even attribute my beliefs to any residual cause and outright label me disloyal.

As medics we are taught that all life is valuable and we must save life and preserve life. So, we shoot the enemy... but then we have to fix them. So already we get different programming than any other section of combat arms, who are all taught: Kill the enemy, the Enemy is bad, f*ck the enemy. It's tough talking to other veterans who are still in kill-the-enemy mode. I have a hair-trigger when it comes to things like that, and other veterans have a hair-trigger when it comes to patriotism or loyalty so it's like we can't have a f*cking conversation at all.

We are in a war, we are being shot at and killed every day, thousands of American soldiers have died, hundreds of them dead. I have seen my friends die. I get it. I can understand how my perspective triggers other people to believe that I think all of that is for nothing and we should just sing kumbaya with terrorists. I get it because people even talk about how we are over there for oil and how Bush/Obama/The Gov't sucks and "Hey y'all have you ever seen Loose Change?! LOL!" and all this and that, gets on my f*cking nerves. It's not the same thing but I understand how what I say could be seen as similar.

And, hell, nobody wants to get home after seeing the f*cking shit over there, and then have a philosophical conversation about humanity with some drunk idiot who throws in your face how black and white it all is. I get that. It's why I don't talk to people. It's why I haven't joined up to this place until now. The military training people receive teaches you how to depersonalize and think in black and white. I think in shades of gray. I think that is because the disconnect for me is that I don't instinctively remember what it was like in the field. I was forced to think in shades of gray and to relate in order to survive. I had years to think about shit in a f*cking hole in the middle of nowhere while everybody moved on with their lives.

Like in training most of us receive this message: We are us, they are them, we kill them, then we go home and I don't know, f*ck our wife and watch TV and drink beer. Or, whatever the hell normal people do. You know? It's necessary because you can't just humanize the enemy because you wouldn't be able to function killing human beings all day every day, you know? You don't have the f*cking time. You can't do it so it's a coping mech, and I get it. Shit, I did the same thing. There were no f*cking patients, there were just injuries.

For me, it was like we are us, they are them, but I have to help them anyway because that's my job (and that's my training). Do no harm, primum non nocere, you know? Then I get landed in prison get out and go home after years, but my wife is an alien who's separated from me while I was gone, my son's grown up, my friends are gone (they've moved on).

So they pin a f*cking medal on my chest and then I sit in my closet for a year and cry on the internet about my life. Who the hell even knows. Shit. Just got the grand prize of ramble over here. So how's that for casual disclosure. Barely know what I'm f*cking doing. Guess I am just so tired of hiding. When I am in a group of people it's always there in the background you know? It's not just Me-PTSD You-Normal. You know?

It has just f*cked up everything I thought I believed. God damn it, you know? Then I see these f*cking advertisements on television for f*cking sixteen year olds, oh, sign up for the army! We leave no man behind!

So now I just sit around and don't f*cking belong anywhere. I'm too sympathetic for the Americans and I'm too patriotic to America for Iraq. It'd be f*cking easier if it was yes/no on any side! But a binary answer would be a dishonest answer and I've had a hell of a long time to think about it while I was over there. So tired of it, you know? Hell, shit. I came here seven months ago and could barely f*cking talk, now I won't shut up. :speechless: I'm f*cking exhausted, sick, and doped to hell. And drunk, which I shouldn't be. Like I said, if y'all don't like me just feel free to delete me again.

 

[Ned]

Sea. Sometimes it has to be black and white, there just isn't the time or safety-zone to indulge in the luxury of fancy-f*ck pondering.
But I would be lying if I denied there have been times I've been pissed off by the sheer ignorance and destructive simplification of some around me.
Problem is, a lot of blokes can't do the shades of grey. They have to rely on binary yes/no. In the end it works and keeps their mates alive (mostly).
I've got a Qur'an. 1900 it dates from. Because I wanted to understand and be able to show a bit of respect. Doesn't mean I went native.
I reckon if you were to get a chat with some SF guys you would get a more constructive response.
Not knowing the history and mindset of a country you're in can be dangerous. I think Brits do give it a go.
No-one's going to condemn you for seeing a bit more...

 

[Zipperhead]

Well there was allot in there. I guess I'll start with what Combat Arms Troops do. I was a Tanker. I had 3 main jobs. Shock, causing the bad guys to leave us alone with intimidation. Protection. When the squishies (that's infantry in tanky)got in trouble, I'd park the tank between the bad guys and them, so they could recover. And last, and least, fire power. If the terrorists really insisted on putting there nuts on the table, my job to squish them. I was there to try to end the fight Sea. We were not there to cause it. We went where we had to go, and fought when we had to. I never once fired a round at someone who hadn't already shot at me. Not once. Combat Arms Troops are not all a bunch of "Gung Ho Murderers." We defend ourselves. And if we do it right, we do home.

I'm not saying this to confront you in your conviction that you are differant. I just think you need to understand us abit to. You see, almost all my engagements were near a small town called Howeze-Madad. We would push through wide open area's for hours. And as we pulled up to the small villages, the RPGs would start. The locals would run. Hey big surprise eh? You didn't know there were terrorists hiding in your village eh? I suppose that IED in the town square just appeared there by itself to? But the worst part, the kids. How could they endanger thier own kids that way? Hell, they used them as shields for f*ck sakes! I know not all Afghanis are evil. I know that there are victims there. But in the end, all I saw there was hate. And all I was trying to do was help.

So yes, when I see a turbine here in MY COUNTRY, I remember that hate. And I have to wonder why they see it nessicary to bring that hate here. To teach that hate to my kid. If thier way of life is so great, why don't they just go home and celibrate by themselves. I learned to hate from the best Sea. The people that hated so good that they killed thier own kids. I did not see the Love in thier society. I did not learn the Qur-an. I learned what they were about from thier actions. Actions speak louder than words Sea.

One final note here. I was just outside the CP one day when I noticed one of the young guys lookin like his whole family had just died. I talked to him, asked what was up. He told me a story, about the last Ambush he had been in. How he had the Recoiless at 300 meters, a clean lase. And then the little girl ran out from behind the wall. The round was already on it's way. He couldn't see if she made it, to much dust. But it was a HESH Round, so we all know what happened to that little girl, whether he had to see it or not. I reassured him that it wasn't his fault, how the Taliban had killed her by using her as a shield, and I said that at least it was a girl. We wouldn't have to deal with the locals complaining how an innocent got killed. To them it was just like a goat. Not worth complaining about. It was then that I realised I had learned to hate. I couldn't believe I had just said that. But it was true. No one ever cared enough about that little girl to even demand we pay for the funeral.

Sea, you are hurting. We all have our scars. We all have our own experiences. We are not it "Kill the enemy mode." But we still don't want to be judged, anymore than you do. You are one of us, and you can continue to be one of us as long as you want. But don't judge us. We did our job.

 

[sea]

Which is the main reason why I specifically don't generalize. Believe me, I comprehend that point of view and I don't actually judge it insofar as I'm not directly confronted with it. I don't have a problem with all veterans cause they're all stuck in the mode. I try not to apply generalizations to everyone. Of course I guess I also communicate in shades of gray, so maybe that is lost in translation. I just have a problem with the ones who have a problem with me. I'm just not used to interacting with people who don't have a problem with me.

It's not like I don't get it. It's just that it's foreign to me, and when people come at me I find it difficult to communicate to them the subtleties of my understanding. The reason I guess I brought it up in my post is because I guess I kind of expect it by now that when I try and discuss my beliefs and my experiences, people reject them. Because most soldiers don't spend five years in a country behind the lines. I guess, you know? Most people don't have to adapt to shades of grey to survive, like Ned said, most people need binary just to f*cking live.

I don't want to preach at people, I'm not interested in preaching. I don't care if you love all Iraqis or Afghans or whatever. I think I piss people off because that's what they think I'm doing, and it's not. The thing is, at the VA for example, I was around while a group of guys were being really racist. I told them to shut up. They argued with me and pulled out the same experiences you just did. I was in the field, they hated me, I hated them, what's wrong with you, don't judge me!!! Don't judge me cause I was in combat and I directly experienced -- and it's like, I don't understand why you're telling me this, because I know. I was there too. I saw it too.

I wanted to kill a guy in prison because he was coming at me with his f*cking bullshit about how, you know, oh, we want to send a message, we want to send a -- I wanted to put a f*cking razor in his throat. I know! You're confronted with hate like that and it's like, you hate back. Right? Fight hate with hate. And then when I start talking about people's humanity, and I stop tolerating hate, people think I judge them or I hate them, or I'm, you know, a sympathizer with terrorists, you know?

It is difficult to spend five years in a hole with a group of people and NOT understand where they come from. So I just stopped hating. And then I got home and said "hey guys, you know - It's not really That Simple" and people started hating me. And now I guess, I instinctively believe that if I talk about any of my experiences, that is the response I'm going to get. And hell this is a whole group of vets and I don't know your stories and it is probably not right that I believe you will hate me just because of whatever, but I guess like you, my experiences fuel my opinions too.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and everybody gets their opinion from the culmination of their experience. Obviously this practice is a little more zen than what I am actually capable of accomplishing when confronted, but I do believe it. It's like you. I reacted hair-trigger to stuff you said to me, but I don't suddenly think you're evil, or think that you are incapable of good, or think that you are incapable of being human, or that what you say is worthless or useless, and, just because of my reaction, doesn't mean that I can't think that way. You know? You have been really welcoming to me here which is a lot more than I expected, obviously, from anybody. I don't think you're a bad person. I comprehend that your experiences fuel your opinions.

People have a dichotomy. Some people do shit that is bad, some people do shit that is good, just because a person is a bad person (like for example a terrorist) doesn't mean that they are not human, you know? And that is the kind of stuff I say that gets me in trouble with people.

 

[Ned]

Well here's a thought. We've all got a different beast, that thing that f*cks us up. A big part of that is carrying around what we've seen and learned that sets us apart.
You've said as much yourself. Honestly mate I would get used to the idea of being pissed off with other people's reactions 'cos it's never going to go away.
We all have to deal with that. You've got your own experience and I can see where the knowledge in your head would aggravate people who don't share it. I know there's perfectly reasonable people who I upset because I won't talk about some things because they haven't been there and wouldn't get it.
They might well think ill of some of the things I had to do. You've got to learn to live with that, bite your lip now and then. Which is not a 'shut up', just try not to beat yourself up with it..

 

[reddevil1111]

Wanted to say hello. I lurk in here a lot more than I post.
We all cope differently. This is part of the fact that we all fought a different war and each of us faces different trauma.
Before I got married I ate out of the can just like I was still in the Marines. Cold soup,beans it was weird but I felt like I didnt deserve better. I slept in my apartment closet floor for 4 years then I got a matress and it was onthe floor for another 11 years.
I had to get involved with a woman who made me aware that I had some issues. Before that I thought I was doing good and acting pretty normal. Denial is a good road for some of us.
Glad to see you working on getting things out. Stop worring about what others think. Worry about what you think. Glad your here. -Red