My First Eye Contact With My T

[The Albatross]

Doubled back to add, our eyes would have to be the size of grapefruits to see as an owl does. But what we have that the owl doesn't is the ability to reason, problem solve, and deliberate before instinctual action.

 

[WillyKat]

We're not as bad at hunting as all that. One fairly unique quality we have is long distance pursuit. Being bi-pedal, we use energy more efficiently than many of the prey animals we hunt (or used to hunt before we began domesticating animals), which allows us to keep chasing past the point that the prey animals reach exhaustion.

 

[Promicarus]

edited

 

[macca]

Hey Albatross, do not worry - I didn't mean to suggest that because something feels true that it is true. Just that it seemed to make sense. In humans, our most developed sense is vision (just talking relatively in terms of our own senses only, not comparing our vision ability to the vision of other creatures). A lot of our communication takes place non verbally, even when verbal communication is present. In people, in many cultures around the world, eye contact is seen as rude and dominant. Primitive hunting for humans relied a lot on vision, and also on non verbal communication. So these are the reasons what Promicarus said made sense to me. He put in it a way that really struck me, due to the quality of his writing.

And of course - I fully agree with you that our brain is what separates us from every other creature on earth. Luckily, (or unluckily it feels like), the more primitive part of our brain takes over when we are in survival mode, so that we can hopefully survive without thinking about it when we don't have time to think - just to act. At least, that's how my t explained it to me, but I could have it wrong. So, if we are experiencing a lot of PTSD symptoms, it's the primitive part of our brain that is activated, so perhaps the more primitive things we do intuitively (like reading body language).

 

[Badger]

Wow, Promicarus, I like that too, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[EverOnly358]

I don't know why I like to do this but my therapist and I always go for walks during sessions. That sort of eliminates the need for eye contact. But going in the same direction, doing something together like walking, well it's connecting somehow. In a non threatening way.

Yup. That's a great idea. My husband and I always have serious discussions either in the car, sitting side by side on the couch or over Skype, just so I don't get triggered by eye contact... because if I do get triggered while we're discussing something upsetting, then I have some sort of emotional flashback (I think that's what happens... I'm still figuring this PTSD stuff out) and then I'm convinced he's yelling at me. Not that he's actually yelling at me (because he doesn't yell during serious discussions) but that's what my brain starts telling me. (PTSD sucks. :confused:)

Could it be, then, that this sensitized, traumatized look in the eye is the human version of a "bared neck"---drawing predators out of the woodwork? Could this be responsible for the phenomenon of "revictimization"--the statistical fact that those with a history of trauma tend to become the victims of later traumas at an incredibly higher incidence than those without trauma? ... Even I've lost one today, I fought my best, and will return tomorrow, undaunted--all the stronger and wiser for it.

@Promicarus, I think the traumatized look is definitely *part* of it, and I know other people recognize it in me, but I also think there's more going on there, too. I really liked your point of view about returning tomorrow undaunted. I didn't used to be that way at all... I would sometimes just walk away from things that were too difficult or complicated. But sometime just after finding out I had PTSD, that really changed. It's a battle... you just can't give up, and things are going to go wrong, but you just having to keep running back into the fray, being hopeful, being determined, trying to do better next time.

 

[EverOnly358]

Um... another thought. There's this thing I do to practice eye contact, because I know it would be better if I could manage it (I have trouble making eye contact with anyone). When I'm out shopping in a big busy store, I make a special effort to make eye contact with the checkout person. They're never going to remember me. It's easy to say something vague and polite. "Thank you." "Busy day here." "Really cold weather we're having, right?" And, if I make eye contact with a checkout person and I freak out, well, I can just leave... that's what I would be doing anyways. It's just a way to practice with minimal stress involved if it doesn't work out.

Gosh, I'm pretty hopeless, huh? ;)

 

[Promicarus]

@[DLMURL="https://www.myptsd.com/c/members/d123.21414/"]D123[/DLMURL]

You're not hopeless at all. From what I've learned, avoiding eye-contact is pretty standard for trauma survivors...and the fact that you're still practicing and making the effort means you're far from hopeless!

 

[DMerish]

I've just now stumbled on this thread, and an interesting one it is. But first, Reds, if you're still following this thread, big kudos! What you accomplished is awesome!!!

I understand, as Promicarus pointed out in one of his early posts, that different cultures maintain beliefs concerning when eye contact is and isn't appropriate. Someone growing up will most likely adopt the gestures/mannerisms of the culture they grew up in. In the U.S. eye contact is encouraged. I get that, and I also get that some people are simply more shy than others. I think shy folks, regardless of their culture, will allow more eye contact after they begin to let someone get to know them.

From what I've learned, avoiding eye-contact is pretty standard for trauma survivors

Could this ^ be partly due to the "unspeakableness" of the trauma? In other words, PTSD and trauma, IMO, is not spoken about sufficiently by the media and/or the public. Things generally not acceptable by the public (such as homosexuality or AIDS, formally) have a component of shame - the unspeakable.

I spent yesterday with my very intelligent three year old grand-daughter who is usually a very open, joyous and outgoing. We were at a table sipping warm cocoa and happily chatting when her cup tipped and a bit of the cocoa spilled on the table. She gasped, and I grabbed some napkins. When I looked at her next I saw that she was frozen, chin to her chest, looking downward.
She was somewhere else. I called her name softly. I asked her what was wrong: she wouldn't answer and she wouldn't look up.

I went to her side of the table, got down to her level, put my arm around her, said her name softly and asked her to look at me. She brought her chin up a little bit and looked at me. I asked her gently what was wrong. She said, "I spilled the milk." and started to cry. I assured her she hadn't done anything wrong, things spill all the time, messes get made and you just clean them up. Spilled milk cleans up quick and easy. Chin to chest again, she quietly said, "I spilled the milk yesterday and mama got really mad and I cried." I assured her I'd never get mad because of spilled milk or any mess she made. She looked at me surprised and amazed, and I told her again I don't get mad about messes. I'd only get mad if I told her not to do something for her own safety, like going out in the street, and then it wouldn't even be because I was mad at her so much as being real afraid he'd get hurt. She wrapped her little arms around my neck and we hugged real tight . . . I'm heartbroken that my grand-daughter was obviously shamed and reduced to tears and silence over spilled milk, and I'm uncertain if I should talk about what happened to my son :unsure:

 

[macca]

Maybe it's some primal, visceral knowledge, more deeply seated than our conscious minds have access to...that in eye-contact, we are revealing a vulnerable soul, walking around with necks bared, in a threat-rich environment, and unable to draw them in behind an adequately convincing facade that would enable us to "pass" in a world that views vulnerability as a liability to be preyed upon.

I remembered Promicarus writing this, as it really struck me at the time, and especially so as I have recently been reading a book someone else mentioned in another thread - called "What your body is saying" by Joe Navarro (an ex-FBI body language expert). He said something very interesting about eye contact being limited in the freeze response, and that children who have/are abused can get "stuck" in it...here's the quote:

"Interestingly and sadly, abused children often manifest these freezing limbic behaviors. In the presence of an abusive parent or adult, their arms will go dormant at their sides and they avoid eye contact as though that helps them not to be seen. In a way, they are hiding in the open, which is a tool of survival for these helpless kids."

 

[greenleaf]

Since the limbic system is mentioned here and we share that with other mammals, I'm thinking of our feral cats who used to get terrified if we looked directly at them. Now they know we're not going to attack. Staring might be connected with predators attacking in general?

I remember getting a jolt that felt like electricity and getting quite scared when I would be looked at in classes in school sometimes. I guess eye contact was involved but I always thought of it as being looked at; having the attention of the person wasn't safe. I haven't had that reaction in many years now but it was awful when I had to sit through classes... I was scared to sit in spots in rooms where people were more likely to look at me, and always wanted an edge seat.

I'm not quite sure how this changed; maybe finding out that most people were much safer than a certain family member over time did that, it's gradually almost vanished over years. Oh, except for the fun episode this autumn of getting triggered by bizarre threatening emails from said family member, gosh that was wonderful.

 

[Promicarus]

I sympathize. Because I was raised by a Latin American father, I ended up with what's been often referred to, in literature and commonly, as the "piercing Latin gaze". It's labeled as such for a reason--it's uncharacteristic of Americans...and most other cultures.

Fun thing was...nobody bothered to mention it to me...that I was being raised in a Latin American household. My father learned English first...long story...and my mother spent almost half her life in Latin America...but the second half...so no accent there, either. But everything else couldn't be more different, from eye-contact to body language, to facial expression, to vocal intonation.

So what I ended up with was not only having no idea why everyone else-supposedly "my people", as far as I knew--attacking me...for what reason I didn't understand...because I didn't have any explanation as to why I was different, to give to them...because no one had ever given me one, after all. I had no idea why everyone else in the world was completely different from my Father and Mother and Myself...completely alien to me.

So it usually progressed like this, on 9/10 instances of eye-contact with Americans....their catching my eye...noticing the quality of eye-contact was "aberrant"...almost "stalking" over, like the proverbial predator...sidling up until they were directly in my face...and asking confrontationally/threateningly "Is there something wrong with you?"..actually, more often it was a threatening accusation...'There's something wrong with you, often in a low growl, even.

Because, after all, I didn't/don't look Latin, at all. And I happened to attend schools where no other Latin American's were part of the student body, even as a poin of reference--for either myself, or for the others. Sometimes it was, I was soon to figure out--only a matter of attempting to first get me talking, in order to "suss me out"...but guess what? As soon as I did begin talking...I spoke with an American accent...but Latin style/intonation!....cinching it!...I'd failed the test conclusively, then!... And the reaction was one similar to the reaction of the aliens in the Body Snatchers...the old 70's movie...literally raising a public alarm to the effect of "We've got one here! There's somethin' wrong with this guy!"

Oh...did I mention that I grew up in Texas...widely known as the most open-minded and least confrontational of regional cultures? And one with a notorious interest in and appreciation of Latin Culture? (Sarcasm, for anyone who didn't get it).

So the problem of eye-contact features as especially prominent in my own story. Interestingly, Latin culture, being highly, almost painfully polite, and gentle, prides itself on "looking within" another, as a way of reaching out, and showing one's nobility in his/her sensitivity of spirit and in appreciation for the other.

American culture? Especially as defined by the standards of American Manhood?...Not so much! (Understatement)

So fix an American male, Texan, even better, with the look that I learned from my father was an appropriate one with which to greet another male? This "piercing" "looking within" quality of eye-contact? Well, that's considered a boundary-crossing provocation in the context of a competitive mode male interaction...you're picking a fight, in other words, and deserve what you get (Either that, or it's assumed that you're gay, and coming on to them...another particularly popular way to be seen in small town Texas!).

So it's kind of amusing, if you look at it that way...I was constantly going through life being attacked, having no idea why...and thinking that THEY had started it....When they, at least from their cultural viewpoint/frame of reference...had every legitimate right to claim that I was the one started it".

And the question becomes...How do you change your natural eye-contact? Really? Not without it then seeming obviously unnatural.

And what's more fundamental to another's sense of "whether someone is 'lO.K.' or not, than whether their eye-contact is "right"?

I've finally realized that it's like putting the gears of two different machines together, which weren't made to fit...the teeth will always catch, and grind. You can go through, and try to find exactly where, on each tooth, on each gear, and file and bend away forever, trying to get them to fit...but what's the point? They weren't made to fit. So I'm off to Latin America...approx 30 years too late. I lived there for a short time (never should have left)...and without exception, everyone I met immediately remarked "You're not American, you're Latin...or your father's Latin"....seems Latin Americans might hate Americans, on average...but they hate me less than Americans do, at least. It'll be nice to be able to walk down the street again, without the expectation that any given interaction is going to result in a fight or accusation of "not being allright". Maybe I'll finally be able to begin to learn what it feels like...to feel "all right".

So this can make you pretty resilient, as a way of growing up, actually. That's the bright side. And a pretty apt pupil of human nature, and the human condition, down to a level of minutiae others would never imagine...not having had a motivation to try to evaluate it and analyze it, in attempts to "figure out what was going on" in a completely and inexplicably alien world...where you couldn't get a sense of what made anyone else tick, what wavelength they were on...but only having every reason to expect that they would attack you immediately, literally on eye-contact, if given any opportunity whatsoever.

The eyes are perhaps the only remaining "magical" part of the human body. They are the windows to the soul. We can not have been able to make sense of what another has said, until we lock eyes with them, then suddenly have a complete and thorough grasp on exactly what they mean. We fall in love when "eyes meet across a crowded room". I'm convinced, as I mentioned, that due to the fact that humans are sight hunters, we're "built around" our sense of sight, as central to our experience of the world--we're especially attuned to reading the messages in another's eyes, even down to the level of their "soul and spirit". There are even relatively huge portions of the human brain devoted solely to interpreting eye-movements and reflected meaning. I even think there's something there, some reason that eye-contact seems so much more important to many women, than men...who, after all, are the potential prey, in a world where 50% of the population are stronger and sexually aggressive? Makes being able to read a person's soul in their eyes pretty important to basic safety.

What other way would it be likely for a sight hunter who happens to have predatory motivations, to spot likely prey, the vulnerability of a soul sensitized by trauma--than by reading that vulnerability in the eyes, the vulnerability of a soul who's experience has taught him/her to see the world as a dangerous place which their coping skills do not suffice to measure up against?

I've always been immediately accepted by Latin Americans as indisputably Latin American---how? On sight. As they put it, regularly..."I can see your heart". This is a primary trait in Latin Americans, men particularly. In an American male...well, it doesn't make you popular...not in a good way. You can bear your heart in a cooperative culture. It's considered fundamental. In a competitive culture? Just wait for the fun to ensue!