On convincing myself that my perpetrators are human beings

[HealingInProcess]

Operative word being can, I think.
Can does not mean have to, and can does not mean will, and can does not mean there is no consequence from whatever sort of justice is supposed to deal with these matters.



Yea, on another hand, there are people that do not get (in self awareness, or anything else) to the point we are at... so maybe it is accomplishments worth keeping in mind too, because they are accomplishments, not just steps on a crumbly road.

Yeah I don't know how many people are walking around with terrible trauma that they've repressed. Actually as I've gotten more informed on his topic I feel like I'm seeing symptoms in a lot of different people I've come across. It's pretty scary.

 

[HealingInProcess]

Yeah I don't know how many people are walking around with terrible trauma that they've repressed. Actually as I've gotten more informed on his topic I feel like I'm seeing symptoms in a lot of different people I've come across. It's pretty scary.

Has anyone else seen this as well in the people around them?

 

[freebird]

Has anyone else seen this as well in the people around them?

I have. But despite how scary it is, for me, it is like a protective 6th sense. Also, I appreciate when people see it in me, because then I don't feel so alone, and they give me advice. My aunt saw it in me and recommended I get diagnosed. She basically saved my life.

 

[Justmehere]

You mentioned faith, and there are 3 books by Christian authors that I would recommend:
1.)Dead Link Removed- talks a lot about people being made up of good and evil, and how to begin to see the world of grey around us (less black and white) as a way to reduce symptoms and face what happened.
2.) Dead Link Removed - talks about the difference between ordinary folks and perpetrators, in all their humanity.
3.) Dead Link Removed- a good resource that has some information on how to undo black and white thinking that comes from sexual abuse.

Has anyone else seen this as well in the people around them?

Yes and no. I try to not go around diagnosing others and guessing at trauma histories. Sometimes when someone discovers a hammer, everything can start to look like a nail. People have a lot of possible reasons to act the way they do.

 

[ILoveLife]

I would leave God out of this for now and focus on what kind of things you accept as moral standards and what you don't. That narrows it down to what it's possible for you to forgive in your lifetime or not.

I have the chance of making peace with one of my abusers right now, and it's been incredibly difficult to separate the person from the behaviors. This particular perp acts out of mental health issues, not true evilness. Another one of my abusers for example, I can't separate the person from the behavior. I think he is evil, and I have periods of compassion for the shit he endured in his life, but I haven't forgaven him. That speaks about me, not him at all. He's no longer in my life, why should he have that much of a hold of my emotions?

"What others think of me is none of my business" applies to what we think of others as well.

One of my own goals for myself is to separate myself from my traits. I mean, I have a stubborn trait, but I am not a stubborn person. But when I think harder about it, and try to apply it to others, it's really hard to see any other person separate from their traits.
Like, I have a neighbour who went through trauma as a child, we discussed a bit about it. She never really got over it, mostly because she had huge damage in her mind due to it and there's a constant reminder. I am getting over it, baby steps, but I don't have a constant reminder in myself of it. Do I say she is her trauma? No, but as my trauma belongs to me, so does her's belongs to her. What she does with it matters to her, not to me. What I do with mine, matters to me but not to her. At the same time, we share and talk and that is fine. We share compassion towards each other.

Same with perps. What happens to them, belongs to them. And they were the ones who refused to share our compassion, not us. So, we may have compassion towards what they've been through but not be compassionate towards the evil they do.

And I don't think we need to compare our own evil with it to relate to them and forgive them or whatever. We don't have the same evil, we don't do the same things. What we share is a story, we were in that story, and our minds constantly tell us that story, but it's nothing more than that right now.

Looking at people in general walking on the street, you can't really say which ones of them are victims of abuse, or are abusers.
If you want to think some guy is camped on the moon looking down seeing dots walking around, that guy has no idea which dot is what either. So, trying to be in that observer perspective, you can really connect to the idea that people are as superficial as they are complex, and they can actually be both abusers and victims of abuse.

What we do with our stories matters, sure, and if you believe in eternal damnation you've got your life made easier for you.
I really don't, so I've got to live with the idea that they will live merry lives even having done what they did. So it's up to me if I want to forgive them or not, but they will never really know, because it's not for them or their story - which is completely separate from mine at this point - it's for me and what I intend to write in my story. Right now they're just a dot that the moon guy sees just as equal as he sees me.

 

[Friday]

Actually as I've gotten more informed on his topic I feel like I'm seeing symptoms in a lot of different people I've come across. It's pretty scary.

Looked at another way... it’s enlightening.

Not because it’s necessarilly correct.
- All disorders share symptoms
- All symptoms are normal human traits taken to the extreme (ie pathological)

So looked at rather than as diagnostic? What you’re seeing may instead be a moment of grief, or shyness, or exhaustion, or rage, or fear, or anxiety, or zoning out, or, or, or. It may be a facet of their personality, or aspect of their character. Or it may be a symptom of another disorder someone is managaing. Regardless of whether it’s normal or symptomatic? You’re seeing glimpses into other people’s lives. Moments of their own journey. That can make other people more real. If you let it. (It can also create artificial distance, seeing only what you imagine; creating fictions to fill in the blanks or explain the unknown). But if you put down the hammer? Seeing neutral people as real is one of those steps to seeing anyone as real. Less Black & White, less disassociated, more present/grounded/connected.

 

[HealingInProcess]

Looked at another way... it’s enlightening.

Not because it’s necessarilly correct.
- All disorders share symptoms
- All symptoms are normal human traits taken to the extreme (ie pathological)

So looked at rather than as diagnostic? What you’re seeing may instead be a moment of grief, or shyness, or exhaustion, or rage, or fear, or anxiety, or zoning out, or, or, or. It may be a facet of their personality, or aspect of their character. Or it may be a symptom of another disorder someone is managaing. Regardless of whether it’s normal or symptomatic? You’re seeing glimpses into other people’s lives. Moments of their own journey. That can make other people more real. If you let it. (It can also create artificial distance, seeing only what you imagine; creating fictions to fill in the blanks or explain the unknown). But if you put down the hammer? Seeing neutral people as real is one of those steps to seeing anyone as real. Less Black & White, less disassociated, more present/grounded/connected.

Yes very true. I'm realizing other people exist and it's taken me decades.

 

[HealingInProcess]

I would leave God out of this for now and focus on what kind of things you accept as moral standards and what you don't. That narrows it down to what it's possible for you to forgive in your lifetime or not.

I have the chance of making peace with one of my abusers right now, and it's been incredibly difficult to separate the person from the behaviors. This particular perp acts out of mental health issues, not true evilness. Another one of my abusers for example, I can't separate the person from the behavior. I think he is evil, and I have periods of compassion for the shit he endured in his life, but I haven't forgaven him. That speaks about me, not him at all. He's no longer in my life, why should he have that much of a hold of my emotions?

"What others think of me is none of my business" applies to what we think of others as well.

One of my own goals for myself is to separate myself from my traits. I mean, I have a stubborn trait, but I am not a stubborn person. But when I think harder about it, and try to apply it to others, it's really hard to see any other person separate from their traits.
Like, I have a neighbour who went through trauma as a child, we discussed a bit about it. She never really got over it, mostly because she had huge damage in her mind due to it and there's a constant reminder. I am getting over it, baby steps, but I don't have a constant reminder in myself of it. Do I say she is her trauma? No, but as my trauma belongs to me, so does her's belongs to her. What she does with it matters to her, not to me. What I do with mine, matters to me but not to her. At the same time, we share and talk and that is fine. We share compassion towards each other.

Same with perps. What happens to them, belongs to them. And they were the ones who refused to share our compassion, not us. So, we may have compassion towards what they've been through but not be compassionate towards the evil they do.

And I don't think we need to compare our own evil with it to relate to them and forgive them or whatever. We don't have the same evil, we don't do the same things. What we share is a story, we were in that story, and our minds constantly tell us that story, but it's nothing more than that right now.

Looking at people in general walking on the street, you can't really say which ones of them are victims of abuse, or are abusers.
If you want to think some guy is camped on the moon looking down seeing dots walking around, that guy has no idea which dot is what either. So, trying to be in that observer perspective, you can really connect to the idea that people are as superficial as they are complex, and they can actually be both abusers and victims of abuse.

What we do with our stories matters, sure, and if you believe in eternal damnation you've got your life made easier for you.
I really don't, so I've got to live with the idea that they will live merry lives even having done what they did. So it's up to me if I want to forgive them or not, but they will never really know, because it's not for them or their story - which is completely separate from mine at this point - it's for me and what I intend to write in my story. Right now they're just a dot that the moon guy sees just as equal as he sees me.

I like this idea of each of us having a story and I think that's true. Yes there is most certainly injustice. This world is a lot more complex than I used to think it was I'll tell you that.