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Please help me understand

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Ariadne

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I've been trying to write this for a week, but every time I'd open the page and start thinking about what I needed to say, I'd feel overwhelmed and just go back to bed.

First though I want to say that I'm immensely grateful for everyone here. Reading posts has helped me so much with so many of those feelings that I thought just were me being weird. To know I'm not the only one who feels, thinks, reacts, or worries the way I do is huge.

edit because no one seems able to actually read it without jumping to really weird conclusions
 
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I think I would say that you have gone to far trying to reconcile with this T. She has stepped over the line it seems to me a lot. I think you both made mistakes. Yours were cause by her un professional/ ethical actions. Hope that helps.
Peace be safe
 
I'm sorry as maybe this will upset you to hear - but yes in my opinion you've stalked her and invaded her requests to be left alone and this has got out of hand. It it were me I would have got an order against you too.

This doesn't excuse her total incompetence and lack of boundaries and all sorts of professional errors she has made, but you need to leave her alone. Being an ex client doesn't entitle you to make comments about her life or be in touch with her even after she has tried to stop contact.

The amount of times you still keep contacting her via Skype and Facebook etc is not ok. You have to respect someone's boundaries for no contact.

You have to stop this and let her go.

Sorry don't mean to be harsh but it sounds like you are obsessed with her in an unhealthy way.

That said she sounds totally unprofessional and incompetent but she still has the right to be left alone if you understand what I'm saying.

How would you feel in reverse if you asked someone to leave you alone and they kept doing this to you?

Apologies if this is too blunt
 
OMG this post gave me the heebie jeebies, probably because I freak out (totally) when someone crosses my boundaries, and this is repeated crossing of boundaries with an inability to take "no" for an answer. I understand you have PTSD but please try not to add to other's trauma. I've been stalked, and it's not fun. (The stalking was not my primary trauma.) Your ex therapist is a survivor? This can explain her inconsistent behavior and reactions to having her boundaries crossed. I think it would be best for you to move on. At this point it's not her job to give you closure (given the termination and no contact order). I've been terminated multiple times and never got a closure session. That is, it's not something that therapists have to give you. Maybe it would be a good idea to practice abiding by others boundaries, no matter how insignificant they may seem to you, or even if you think it's it their best interest for you to cross the boundary.
 
I think she was justified. You turned up at her house when are hadn't shared her address and without permission, emailed her repeatedly, tried to advise her on her use of social media and after you'd been told not to contact her you repeatedly texted her about active suicidal behaviour.

I hear you say there was no malevolent intent in any of that but honestly all of what you describe would feel quite threatening to me - texting her when actively suicidal would feel like emotional blackmail or punishment.

Yes, she overstepped the boundaries in being too friendly when you were seeing her and I can understand you not knowing where the line was in therapy but as soon as you were terminated, you were done. I don't know how else she could be other than friendly meeting you in public - that isn't an invite in to private areas of her life.

The thing that strikes me is your lack of responsibility or accountability for your behaviour and lack of empathy for the impact of your behaviour on her. I would be completely freaked if I told someone roughly where I lived and they then turned up at my front door. You scared someone so much they needed to take legal action to stop you contacting them - that is no small thing. I think you'd have a better chance of having the order lifted if you were able to show some sense of ownership of what you did and your responsibility for the order being placed.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but you did ask.
 
I appreciate all the responses and to much, I do agree. I do want to just clarify a little bit...

I presented things here in such a way as to try to avoid presenting my opinions on things, which includes how I feel about all of it. I only mention how I felt at the time.

For one thing, she actually did not tell me not to contact her until nearly a year after I had been trying to contact her and for half of that year she was encouraging contact. Then when I was messaging her, she was doing things to respond, rather than in any way suggest the messages were unwanted. It was only when I had befriended this girl that she was stalking and harassing and the girl asked for my protection that I confronted her about that; that wasn't about her being a former therapist, but a friend to a girl who came to me too scared to leave her apartment because she was being stalked. She didn't tell me vaguely where she lived, she told me in a detailed description how to get there, and in my experience, that generally is a kind of invitation. She never said "don't come to my house."

My reason for not taking the other T's word about her was because he was lying to me about a lot of things and actively trying to triangulate me with her, which was why I left the agency for counseling. And the texting her while suicidal; are you aware of what ambien does? I was absolutely not conscious for that! And since then, I will not touch ambien ever again.

I did not know about roughly half of the messages I had been sending to her because I had done so in my sleep. I had been on the ambien the whole time I was working with her and if ever she had said, "hey, did you know you tried to skype call me?" (hypothetically) I would have taken steps to avoid letting that happen. In truth I am utterly mortified and despondent that I did that. I cry about it almost every day. I can't ever take that back, or any of the things I said when off my meds. And no, it's not an excuse! But I have had to examine what led to my behavior to make sure nothing like this ever happens again.

And, I am leaving her alone, I'm no longer seeking any kind of interaction with her. I'm just processing my feelings. (as I mentioned, my interest in having the order lifted is so I don't have to look for her everywhere)

I do know I have an unhealthy fixation with her. And I know I was wrong to get mixed up in all that. Because of the way she lied on the order itself, I suspect it was more about retaliation for defending my friend than her actually feeling afraid of me.

Most of the time I tend to feel like it's all my fault and I'm the only one who messed up. I feel like I failed her as a client and as a person. I feel like I was lost and I hate myself for letting her see that. I should have taken her unethical behavior to her supervisor or the agency, but I was afraid she'd get in trouble.
 
Wow this sounds very complicated and painful.

First of all take a breather and tell yourself that you are going to be ok you can make it out of this. You are not bad person or a failure. This situation just seems complicated.

I believe your therapist was unprofessional and crossed many boundaries and the relationship between you too seems very confusing. Maybe she did take advantage of your emotional vulnerability you became unhealthy attached and she mishandled that. She does seem like a crap of a therapist.

But, she is not coming back to fix this for you or to rescue you. If she couldn't even keep the relationship safe when you saw her, what makes you think that she is coming back in any way shape or form to help you heal? This kind of like trauma bonding. Expecting our abuser to come back to us and be the savor and things get back to what they were.

The only person that can fix this is you. Don't start with the problems you have with her. Start elsewhere. Think about those problems and deal with them. Try to distract and remove your thoughts from her. As you get stronger and healthier and hopefully build healthier relationships you can come back and revisit what happened with her. Try to heal yourself and I believe this situation will heal yourself. You'll see you'll come on the other side and think: wow can't believe I gave this person so much of my thoughts space and time.

Best of luck.
 
Wow this sounds very complicated and painful.

But, she is not coming back to fix this for you or to rescue you. If she couldn't even keep the relationship safe when you saw her, what makes you think that she is coming back in any way shape or form to help you heal? This kind of like trauma bonding. Expecting our abuser to come back to us and be the savor and things get back to what they were.

thanks, I actually don't want her back at all. I have a new therapist that I am working with. I am working on healing myself and going back to school and making pragmatic changes in my life to avoid the insomnia and other issues.

another thing I wanted to clarify for others: when I said she hugged me at an event, I want to explain: she knew at this point that I had feelings for her and I had told her that I hate to be touched. She does not usually hug people, she doesn't even shake hands all that often. So her hugging me was highly unusual and confusing. At that same event she introduced me to her daughters, having me sit beside them at a crafting table. To me this seems to suggest that she did not have concerns about me violating her privacy at all as she was still at that time, over a year after terminating therapy; confiding in me about her home life and family. (Telling me about how one of her kids needed grounding after a speaker and her teen boy needed constant reminding about things, etc.)

My unwillingness to trust her co-worker's word about things pertaining to her has to do with the fact that in this town nearly 90% of the people I know have been to this place, know the same people and I have witnessed numerous hipaa violations and ethical issues. It was my primary care provider who expressed concern about the withholding of my records from my counselor and encouraged me to seek mediation, which is in their policy to provide.

editing to add:
When I say she told me thing while in therapy, I mean:
where she gets coffee
where her kids go to school
her ex-husband's vasectomy and a nickname only used in the bedroom
her best friend's name and about her kid
where she goes for massages monthly and if she doesn't go monthly she'll throw up after
that wednesdays was mini-pizza night
they had two cats and a "fish with a shell" (turtles as pets are illegal here)
that she shops on saturdays and cooks on sundays
what restaurants she likes
that if she gets turned upside down she'll pass out
her youngest has a heart condition
her oldest is afraid of birds, put herself through college with beauty contests and they watch The Walking Dead every Sunday night. Their favorite character is Darryl. (I do not watch that show)
her son likes lifting weights, once jumped out of a second story window because he thought it'd be faster than walking down the stairs.
her middle daughter likes playing the Sims
when I asked how many kids she had she said that usually when asked she just says "lots", then went on to explain she has 4 but two are hers and two are adopted.
she's a tetrachromat
she's very sensitive and keeps salt in her desk drawers to block negativity
she does not use birth control
she has a gastro-intestinal disorder
her parents were "hippies"
she has numerous tattoos
she usually wear dresses at home and likes to go barefoot
she and her youngest get private ballet tutoring
she doesn't like certain co-workers
she hates having her office moved

All of that was volunteered by her. Sometimes she would interrupt me while sharing something and turn the conversation back to herself.
When offering advice she'd say things like "I want you to..." or "I need you to..."
After terminating therapy she continued to accept small gifts from me. Including the last time I saw her in person.
 
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@Ariadne - her making errors in therapy by over-sharing does not somehow excuse you then acting on your fixation.

Your trauma history is explanation for how you became obsessed, certainly. Just like the ambien is an explanation for the suicidal texting. You are still responsible. You're not guilty. You're responsible. There's a difference.

I'd say that she clearly had her own problems. Those are hers.

You had your problems. Those are yours.

I'd not pursue it further. You are not neutral about her - you still have internal conflict bound up in this - and so, you're better off turning away from it entirely. Work on accepting your own actions, and resolving that you did some things that were not OK. Learn how to accept those things without it needing to be you as the mistake maker and her as totally innocent, or vice versa. That's just cognitive distortion at work.
 
lol....that's so not the point!

I'm not seeking excuses for behavior I already said was INAPPROPRIATE. Hello, I've owned that! And I've already said I AM leaving her alone, having nothing to do with her, etc. Done.

My point was the question that if she did NOT express her boundaries, did NOT tell me she did not want contact and had involved me herself in her life is it still considered harassment when for her to even see my messages she had to voluntarily choose to open and read them? Is it stalking for me to read her facebook if she is also reading mine (and talking about it to people who then tell me). It's not about finding blame or jesus....seems like everyone is so ready to jump on the cognitive distortions bandwagon, like you all think you're therapists.

My question was simple really, though the context is complex. Yes, I own my feelings and fixation, yes I feel responsible for my choices and actions even when I was completely unable to control them. (by the way, do you tell a woman who's been raped while unconscious that she's "responsible"?) Yes, I know my problems are MINE. That's why I already stated that I have a good therapist now who is helping me with MY issues. I've gotten stabilized on medication that prevents similar issues from cropping up.

But I had wanted to ask, if my actions were consistent with the tone she set and her own actions and I had a legitimate reason for attempting to contact her at the time (and no, I'm not still trying in case anyone needs that part reiterated- I HAVE ZERO CONTACT WITH HER NOW AND IT WILL STAY THAT WAY!!!) is it still unlawful behavior if she didn't even say not to contact her until just before the order and in reaction to my writing to her boss and threatening to complain.
 
I don't know as it matters if is lawful or not. It is going to be bad for you and her. You have already said you have no contact I would keep it that way and move beyond it as I really don't think there is any way forward other wise. I would never want to go around her again. Best to put this one in your rear view mirror I think.
 
is it still considered harassment when for her to even see my messages she had to voluntarily choose to open and read them? Is it stalking for me to read her facebook if she is also reading mine (and talking about it to people who then tell me)
Yes. Your actions were harassment irregardless. You are making the same argument of, 'is it still rape if they were flirting with me all night, demanded that I walk them to their place, and took off all their clothes and said they wanted sex...and then they said no, stop it after we had gotten started, but didn't push me away or anything?'

is it still unlawful behavior if she didn't even say not to contact her until just before the order and in reaction to my writing to her boss and threatening to complain.
Yes, because she at any time can say that you are over the boundary lines. And you did clearly have an understanding, when the relationship first began, that she was being unusually forthright.

Her inconsistency with her behavior doesn't change your actions. You made choices. Period.
 
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