Post Traumatic Growth ?

[EveHarrington]

I realize my strong reaction was because I felt that the concept invalidated me and all of the hard work I've done.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Personally i dont feel its invailidating me and my growth as thats what its about. The way im reading this (and that form specifically) as a reult of your crisis/distaster (trauma). It says it right on top of the form. It asks, as a result of my trauma, i have a better understanding of spritual matters. Well no, because of my trauma im more f*cked up and mixed up about spiritual matters. And so on goes the form to no, no, no.

And that form more explains my stance on this. Its saying that you have growth you may not have had if not for the trauma. No! Or at least, due to healing from your trauma you have a better handle on these things and at this point, still no. I may be more empathic, maybe, but nothing on that form can I say I do better due to my trauma and actually do worse at it because of my trauma.

Maybe one day but i am not where near any of that.

 

[joeylittle]

Its saying that you have growth you may not have had if not for the trauma.

No - although I understand how one could see it that way. It's talking specifically about the ways in which surviving and working through the trauma (so, post-therapy, after you've come out the other side of the long dark tunnel) you have changed.

Or at least, due to healing from your trauma you have a better handle on these things and at this point, still no.

I kind of want to challenge this a little, though. I've read you say a number of times on the forum that when you first came here you were highly reactive, and believed that you were going to be pushed away so you operated defensively (I'm really paraphrasing - and please tell me if I've got it wrong). Then, you talk about getting through the shifting of the blame, and how that opened up a different way of looking at things for you. Also, the ways in which you share more openly now that you've become more comfortable.

I don't think that any of that should mean, 'oh goody! I'm better because of my trauma' - that's not what the guys who ran the studies are intending. But it does have to do with ways one's view shifts, post-trauma. Now, you are still in active recovery. And I think for people who's trauma was in childhood, this is an especially fraught (and upsetting) exercise, because your recollection of the time before the trauma is barely there, if at all. That makes it all look like you started at the bottom of the mountain with weights on your shoes, and of course you are aware that you don't know what it's like to not have the weights.

But if you just take it from a 'now' perspective, and not try and incorporate the 'who I was before trauma' aspect - it starts to get a little easier to see.

But, a big aspect is that, you actually need to be on the other side of healing to really do this properly. As the woman who wrote the opposing essay talks about, it's invalidating and possibly damaging to people who are mid-recovery, or even just starting, to think that the recovery benchmark is being able to identify how your trauma helped you grow. And it's a false metric for clinicians to use. Sort of like, you can't do the exit interview until the last day of work. Doing it any earlier is not going to give useful feedback. You can't evaluate your post-traumatic growth until you are fully post-trauma, and that includes recovery.

It's more about - assuming that trauma does a lot of shit to someone, after they've been able to work through that and recover, what has been created that might be considered a positive attribute? It doesn't mean the trauma was good.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It doesn't mean the trauma was good.

Yeah, that part I understood.

But, a big aspect is that, you actually need to be on the other side of healing to really do this properly.

Yeah, that I saw too because everything on that form I want to get there one day or aspire for.

I've read you say a number of times on the forum that when you first came here you were highly reactive, and believed that you were going to be pushed away so you operated defensively (I'm really paraphrasing - and please tell me if I've got it wrong). Then, you talk about getting through the shifting of the blame, and how that opened up a different way of looking at things for you. Also, the ways in which you share more openly now that you've become more comfortable.

Not wrong other than I was on defense not because I thought I would be pushed away per se. I suppose rejection was part of it but most of it was fear of being hurt.

But the remainder is correct and thats what i meant when i said i have grown, a lot, but not enough to say (just as example) on the form above, that its enough to say its even a one; as yes im more comfortable on here, but out there in the real world is another story.

I recongize that its a therory that could be true later but its just not now as im in the thick of it.

 

[BlueOrange]

PTG is difficult to apply to a person like me who has no recollection of 'a person before the trauma'. That said, my DID has provided me with a powerful incentive to get really good at dispute resolution and teamwork. I'm starting to teach those skills - most people don't find the subject matter as difficult as I do, which means that I'm often able to help people through whatever difficulties they do have.

 

[scout86]

I still haven't done the reading, but, considering the general idea, if you think of "growth" as an ongoing process, not a final destination, everything you learn along the way could be thought of as PTG, couldn't it? I'm not done with therapy. But, there are things I'm handling better than a year ago, or 2 years, much better than before I started therapy. I consider that to be "PTG", even if the study doesn't.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

if you think of "growth" as an ongoing process, not a final destination, everything you learn along the way could be thought of as PTG, couldn't it?

I would but its not how this is written, anywhere that ive found.

Take this for that was posted above:

Now, what im drawing into importantce is "result of crisis/disaster". Thats how this entire concept reads. So i say to myself "where i am today on all of this compared to where i would be if i didnt have the trauma". Thats how this reads. That doors have opened that likely wouldnt be there if not for the trauma (which is on the main site).

I hope one day to be there but, in my view, it almost dismisses all other growth. All of the little steps. I do see that its like being at the finish line of marathon and looking back seeing how far you ran, but reading that form makes me very sad. That because of my trauma, instead of having spiritual growth, i am very confused about spiritual matters (including having a non-extent reglious faith). Fear people. Count on no one in times of need. Lost my intrests. Dont appreciate my own life at all. Dont appreciate each day but rather dred reach day just waiting for the end. Express emotions horribly. You get the idea. The only one i can say maybe about is having more compassion for others.

That form very well expresses the entire concept better than I can type. It is not looking at every little step that got you where you are currently and calling that growth but rather what you have, due to trauma, after recovered from said trauma. But if not recovered from the trauma it very much dismisses the fact that you've grown. In my opinion and reaction to this entire therory. As no where on here does it say "you dont do cult rituals every day like what used to rule you. You shifted blame so that you could connect your past with abuse. That you could allow a site of people close." Etc. Growth? Yes. But doesnt fit this therory at all. Not even in a non-specific sense.

I dont know. As in most things, some will fit it, some wont. I aspire to these things but cant say that today any of it is true. But still have grown. That, for me, is my push back.

 

[scout86]

I read that, as best I could on this phone. Kind of hilarious, in a way. It seems pretty clear they are thinking of people who can point to one, discrete "crisis". Which isn't what you experienced and it's not what I experienced either. It's also not what my T had in mind when he talked about this.

They wrote the piece, they get to define the terms for the purpose of the article. I still think the general idea has value. The whole point of therapy is to encourage growth, isn't it?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

The whole point of therapy is to encourage growth, isn't it?

Yes it is, in my opinion.

Im not saying it has zero value. Im just saying that this is written in a way that degates the importance of small steps (and big ones) that dont put you in a place thats that life changing to say that you have a better understanding of spiriual matters and all thats on that form. I can make huge steps but still unable to answer yes to anything on that form.

Like, the form (and the therory) would be for someone fully "recovered" which is just a handful on the site that i can think of. It doesnt speak toward smaller growth on the way to "recovery" but just "recovery" in itself.

So yes, all in therapy is growth, but no, this therory doesnt speak about that growth. Only the last bit.

 

[joeylittle]

Like, the form (and the therory) would be for someone fully "recovered" which is just a handful on the site that i can think of. It doesnt speak toward smaller growth on the way to "recovery" but just "recovery" in itself.

I'm not sure I agree totally. I think someone could take a snapshot of where they are anywhere along their recovery timeline. You said yourself, once you backed up and thought about it, you'd maybe have some 1s.

I'm not saying they've nailed the inventory sheet - but it's not without some usefulness. Something else that the guys who came up with this write about is that it's not meant to replace resiliency. Anyone who has survived their trauma and is working on recovering from it, is demonstrating resiliency - which is an important part of trauma recovery.

It seems pretty clear they are thinking of people who can point to one, discrete "crisis".

That's definitely the bias. Although, Victor Frankl is in that category (for instance) - his crisis was surviving 3 years in concentration camps during WWII, losing his wife, mother, and brother in the process.

His belief is/was that the thing that motivates people (after basic survival) is the desire to make meaning out of one's life, and being able to find that meaning, moment to moment (even when it's small) is what makes it possible to survive the more horrible, inhumane, awful tragedies. I struggle with reading his stuff - sometimes, it's very very moving - and other times, I feel like he was a super-human genius, and what he was able to do is not what I will ever be able to do.

'growth' still strikes me as not quite the right word for what that is. post-traumatic evolution, maybe, or...I don't know what.

So yes, the concept of post-traumatic growth is easiest/clearest to apply when there is a distinct beginning, middle, and end to a trauma. I don't think that individuals who underwent childhood trauma experience that same beginning, middle, end; but perhaps that just means that those individuals can look at their survival and evolution as a kind of ongoing process that can be charted, and that noticing the small gains is just as valid and important as recognizing the bigger ones.

 

[scout86]

Just wanted to express appreciation for Victor Frankl. For me, his writing is responsible for a lot of my early PTG.
Got to remember to add him to today's list of people, places, and things to be grateful for!