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PTSD As A Legal Defense

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If the PTSD wasn't the cause of the offense then it shouldn't be allowed to be used as the defense, IMHO. Just common sense really.

However, I am sorry to hear they poked fun at you. There's no reason for that.

bec
 
This is a really sensitive issue. I think it's safe to say that all of us here are pretty much mortified by what has been done to this baby.

However, I wonder how many of us with PTSD who have been sexually abused as children were abused at the hands of someone with undiagnosed PTSD. That's not to say that PTSD causes pedophilia. However, we also don't know that it doesn't play a role.

It's obvious that not enough is known about PTSD OR pedophilia to make any sort of informed opinion. It's sad, really.
 
I am not familiar with this case. I think it's really hard to say. I don't think PTSD turns anyone into a pedophile. However, those with dissociation are sometimes confused about what's happening, where they are and what the appropriate course of action is. How this would turn into harming a child I'm not sure, as it's unlikely it would have been conceived as a threat (as it has been mentioned people with PTSD have killed other people when they thought they were being attacked or their life was in danger).

Every case of PTSD is really different though so it's hard to make categorical judgments. I do think it's a legitimate defence in general, I'm not sure about in this case it's seems like a bit of a leap. And just as an aside, it really gets me that most media coverage of mental illness is about people with illnesses doing horrible things. The opposite is a lot more common.

Although I've had no entanglements with the law, the most likely scenario for me would be something like being asked to follow some sort of instruction by a police officer or at the airport, and not doing it (either not understanding what was said, or not able to move) and then being arrested for resisting or something along those lines. And, in that scenario I think PTSD is a reasonable defence because it's like having a disability- either cognitive (unable to understand directions) or physical (unable to move). Ironically, the more threatened I feel (ie being yelled at, grabbed, physically searched) the more likely I would be unable to respond.
 
I have no idea the case you are talking about, and in fact in the course of offering my response, I am purposely completely removing any consideration of the case, pedophilia, etc. ..... my "take" on this has nothing to do with that guy and whatever he did. I am pushing it from my mind.

Now.

In terms of can PTSD cause a person to do Bad Things ???

Yes, absolutely, in my opinion.

To the non-sufferer, I would say, you have no idea the RAGE that comes with PTSD. Not just the absoluteness of the emotion, but the heat of the rage. It is so white-hot that a person cannot stand to have it inside of them, it must be let out to relieve some of the pain, the pressure, to cool some of the heat that is burning us up from the inside, out.

Even minor annoyances hit our breaking point (a very low threshold -- nothing that would even get a second thought by a "normal" person) and we will *SNAP* into anger or rage ... we lash out at whomever is around us, and it feels like we have no choice but to lash out, literally we can see no other option to deal with the situation & what we are feeling inside, than to vent it out. Bam! Vent.

Our whole existence is absolute, black-and-white, all-or-nothing, and completely IN THAT MOMENT.


Now to offer some perspective :)

In my experience, which is only my own experience :) there have been many stages to this condition. As my PTSD was developing and untreated (the first 9 months after my trauma) I felt as if I was plummeting down a steep, rocky slope... there was nothing to grab, nothing to hold onto, I was just falling, falling, tumbling, falling ......... I knew what it was (that it was PTSD) but that knowledge alone wasn't enough; it was totally out of control and worsening daily. During that uncontrolled/worsening period, that is when the rage and snapping at minor things was the worst; it was really black-and-white, all-or-nothing. I was living on such an edge that it took little more than a blink to punt me right over the edge.

Once I started therapy and started learning about PTSD, that's when things started turning around. I gained a lot of power over the PTSD just by learning about it. It brought tremendous relief to know that my symptoms were not unique or unexplained, that my symptoms were all NORMAL for what I was going through, that the health community had identified this as a real illness and I was not some fluke of nature. *WHEW!* -- that was huge.

Since getting that validation from the Establishment, naturally it's been an ongoing process of learning to identify WTF is going on in my head, categorize it, and trying to figure out what is the healthiest way through it. Identification of the emotions is 90% of the battle, at least for me. Once I can identify something as "out of whack," then I can more easily discount it and try to proceed in a more normal fashion. It has been a HELL of a lot of very hard work.

Another level of progress for me was brought about by medication. I've lucked out, and adding a second anti-depressant has greatly reduced some of my PTSD symptoms. Like, the overwhelming paranoia that makes me hide/live under the level of the windows (literally) in my own home... I still get "flares" of paranoia that last for a few days, but it is probably 75% gone. Lordy what a relief!!! I do occasionally overreact to situations, but the blinding rage is gone. That snap-anger is gone. (Now when I feel overwhelmed by negative emotion I am able to clamp down my jaw and remove myself from the situation, thereby diffusing it.)


What is my point? When I was undiagnosed and untreated -- back when I was still spiraling out of control? -- yes, I absolutely could see how someone would lose emotional control and do something Very Bad.

Personally, I never did act out on my emotions (like, criminally or causing someone harm), because throughout all of this I clung tightly to my moral compass. I was raised in a religious home, and I guess because of those deep roots, that's where I looked to find something to cling to as I was tossed around in this endless sea of awfulness. There was nothing else. So I was constantly looking to God for strength and deliverance from this horrible BEAST in my head, and I knew despite the maelstrom going on in my head that the Ten Commandments and what was considered morally right, were all safe, proper and what I should be striving for. Those were the compass to steer by -- not the whacked-out shit going on in my head. I knew the rules of millions of normal people trumped whatever crazy shit I was feeling inside. So those were the guides I kept looking to for sense and reason ..... even though my brain was pissed with it all. LOL

It was my only tie to what was sensible. Everything I said, everything I did, I held up against that compass to analyze before acting on it. I thanked God every day for giving me that "compass" to keep referring to. I felt like I was always 1 step away from flying right off the cliff, but having that compass to keep referring to was the sole thing keeping me safe, and keeping others safe.


I often wondered, what if that moral compass wasn't there??? What would keep a person from acting out on their emotions, what would keep a person from doing really bad things to others??

The answer I kept coming to was, Nothing.

Right? I mean, I couldn't think of anything else that would help them differentiate right from wrong ... because at that point, the only point of reference you have is a sea of fear, anger, irritation, rage ... It is overwhelming, suffocating, all-encompassing ... the bad stuff is all you can see at that point ... so without an external set of standards for what is right vs. wrong, what would keep a PTSDer from acting on what they feel?


I don't know what is the case for others with PTSD. I don't know if people who are using PTSD as a criminal defense, actually lost touch with the 'moral compass' I'm referring to, or if they're just trying to get away with a loss of old-fashioned impulse control. Is it possible? Is it real? Is it legit? Is it not? I don't know ... I never went over the edge, so I can't tell you if going over the edge even happens, or can happen, or how.

But given what I felt inside my own head and body, do I find it PLAUSIBLE? Yes. But have I personally experienced or witnessed it? No.


Just my opinion ......... and I am sure others' mileage will vary.

Bailey
 
If the PTSD wasn't the cause of the offense then it shouldn't be allowed to be used as the defense, IMHO. Just common sense really.

However, I am sorry to hear they poked fun at you. There's no reason for that.

bec
Well.... looking at the assaults, rape, attempted murder, etc., yes it is a good defense. Hyper-sensitivity is not always a bad thing. Man forces his way into my home, which is barely one step below breaking and entering, threatening me for money. He admits it under oath. Ok, so instead of calling 911 I went for a gun, based on my past experiences, courtesy of my PTSD. Or is it because of it? Who knows. But I had enough control over myself that I could have shot the man, but I didn't.


What if I went for the phone instead? I wouldn't have made it. Would he have stopped me? I think so.
But, would he have beaten me up? Killed me? Slapped me around? Raped me?
I have no idea. Thank God.

Better off questioning how far he could have/would have gone than to question if killing him was the right thing to do.
Jesus knows the answer, and so do I.
 
CJ,
I would have done the same thing; the guy was threatening you, he is inside your home and you can assume that he is dangerous. I don't think a rational person would somehow make the invader sit still while I pick up the phone and ask the police to come in about 20 minutes, oh, and bring a broom and dustpan to clean up my remains. I would defend myself and my home from the invader without wasting time wondering what else he is going to do now that he is in my home. PTSD or not, the unwelcome guest would be made incapacitated, either by a gun or a bat or some other weapon. People who come into my home unwelcomed leave on stretchers.
 
CJ: Defending yourself was not because of your PTSD. Were you in an uncontrollable rage from PTSD, were having a flashback, were you in a dissociative state? If the answer is no, then your PTSD wasn't the cause. The cause was, based on your experiences you believed that your life was in danger.. See the difference?

I whole heartedly believe the idiot that came up with these laws that you can not defend yourself in your own home should have his home broken into and his life threatened! I bet that law would change fast! It's a stupid law and a stupid charge no matter how you look at it. Your being charged with defending yourself is beyond stupidity in my opinion. It's unjust no matter how you look at it. However that doesn't meant PTSD is the cause of it. I could see it adding to your PTSD though!

bec
 
becvan, I think you are right in that someone in CJ's situation would not have their reaction caused by PTSD, but PTSD surely could cause them to over-react (e.g., react with a greater level of force than a non-PTSDer might use).

It doesn't cause the reaction itself, but IMO it definitely impacts how they react.

Bailey
 
touchy topic

Not everyone who rapes a baby or child is a pedophile. This is an extremely important distinction to make. A pedophile is a person who prefers to have sex with children. It is a preference, not an orientation. They know that what they do is wrong, but they CHOOSE to do it anyway. My father raped me regularly and it didn't have a f'ing thing to do with pedophilia. It was about power, control, and terror. Rape and other types of sexual usury, particularly in the domestic arena, are frequently about power/control issues. It is just as effective a technique to control someone as beating them is. Maybe better.

PTSD is a condition, not a disease. It is controllable with treatment. Granted, there are varying degrees of success in treatment, but it stigmatizes ALL of us who have never harmed anyone when some damn defense lawyer trots out the "I'm-mentally-ill-so-I'm-not-guilty," crap. And it is crap. Because no matter what happened to you, no matter how horrific, you are still responsible for your actions in the world. I realize this is a controversial statement; but it is absolutely true. If you abuse/d your own kids because of your condition, you are guilty of being an abuser AND responsible for your actions. If you never sought treatment, for whatever reason, you're responsible for that, too. If you do not participate fully in your treatment...guess what? You have to own that as well.

I know I sound harsh. Hell, I AM harsh. I had to be, or I wouldn't be here now because my father would have been the death of me. So that means that every single day of my life, I wake up and CHOOSE not to give in. To fight the good fight. To take responsibility when I make wrong/poor/bad decisions. And that kind of responsibility is f'ing hard. I have never used my condition, severe as it is, as an excuse or "get out of jail free" card. And, sadly, there have been times when I REALLY wanted to- the main one being a run-in with law enforcement. Never mentioned it. Hired an attorney, spoke before the judge, got the sentence, and filled it. Because we must all learn to own the bad, along with the good. If you own it, it is yours. And once you can claim it, awful as it is, you no longer have to be ashamed of what some other person/s did to you. There is no shame in our survival. I refuse-REFUSE- to feel shame because my father and mother were horrible parents. They're the ones who should be ashamed of themselves- the things they did and didn't do...

As a side note for MrsB, my father was a Vietnam veteran. Two tours. Bronze star, 2 purple hearts, one of only two survivors of an enemy ambush. He was a bad-ass, highly trained, skilled soldier. Know how he got to Southeast Asia? Because he murdered somebody and the court offered him a choice- prison or war zone. My father was a long lost cause and a very bad man before he saw one day of combat. So my guess is, your guy- the one you're writing about, was already a very bad man long before Iraq. IF he even has ptsd, it doesn't make you a slavering beast. That dude already had issues if he could rape a 13 month old baby to death. Check his background (if you can)- I bet you'll find a poor home life, gang activity, fire setting, and convictions for assault, sexual assault, and/or other sex related crimes in his past. Provided it's not all hidden in a juvenile record. Because no one, not even somebody with extreme dissociated state ptsd, just wakes up one day and decides to rape an infant. No one. I'd like to know how your paper comes out. red
 
To be specific, from what I dug up (so I can't be held responsible if I'm wrong) a pedophile is into sex with pre-pubescent children while a hebephile is into sex with pubescent/post-pubescent children. This is using the term children to cover anyone under the age of 18.

This IS important as people misuse the term pedophile to mean anyone having sex with anyone under the age of 18. I know in some cases there are people that have stretched the limits on that as the state they may live in has different standards. In Utah, for example parents can consent to the marriage of their 14 year old daughter to a man over 21. But it must be a parental consent as well as the girl. So technically her husband is a pedophile. But, is it a criminal pedophaelia or is it.....? Unlikely it's criminal in nature as it is within the legal bounds of state law, but clearly a form of legal pedophaelia.
 
Back to the legal issue...

In Canada and the United States, in order for a person to not be considered culpable for their crimes they need to lack the mens rea (formed intent) to commit the crime. From a legal standpoint, the mens rea can be formed a split second prior to the act being committed. If someone with PTSD committed a violent act and brought about someone's death they would be responsible for the act they committed, simply because they would have formed the intent to act in a certain way. PTSD sufferers are known to react strongly to threats, yet they almost always know they are performing the act. The exception to this circumstance would be disassociative fugue states, or night terrors/sleep walking when person has no conscious thought processes.

I think it would be extremely irresponsible and dangerous for someone to be ruled not guilty by reason of mental defect for harming someone solely on the basis of PTSD. Once the precedent is set it can rarely be reversed.
 
A huge part of PTSD is disassociative states for many sufferers. It is part of PTSD not separate from it. Hence my point that it is entirely plausible line of defense if one was in that state and committed a crime.

bec
 
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