Changing4Best
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I'd say it is very important NOT to come across as their buddy or peer or friend; make sure you assert your age as older than they are and more mature, etc.
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Ptsd & Relationships - The Importance Of Assertiveness
- Post starter AS1975
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I'd say it is very important NOT to come across as their buddy or peer or friend; make sure you assert your age as older than they are and more mature, etc.
- Post starter
- #74
Public/Private Nuisance is a crime - any person is entitled to arrest any person in the process of committing a crime, particularly when that offence includes operating a skateboard on a public road. The process of stating that one intends to enforce the law is not an assault, so how can it be aggressive? I am entitled to the "peaceful, private enjoyment of my property" and they are not entitled to intrude upon that. If enforcement, or the stated intention of enforcing the law, cannot be a threat, then the same cannot be aggressive, it is a statement of fact and a statement of entitlement. Putting someone on the ground in a lock is an arrest, if they get hurt resisting the same that is their business, it is not aggression as such on my part. I am merely exercising my common law right to abate a nuisance, they have no right to commit the same. Assertiveness "HAS" to include the situation where reasonableness has failed to remedy the situation, or it is going to be impossible to maintain.
Changing4Best
VIP Member
We had some kids in our neighborhood once that used to play their boom boxes until all hours of the night. Finally my husband called the Police and complained and when that did not work, he went in and spoke to the Chief of Police personally.
Well! The kids must have been warned by the Police that day, because that night they tried to scare us by threatening us and surrounding our house with a gang. Some of them had sticks or what appeared maybe even to be pipe bombs! (We lived in Union City, NJ, the first busstop out of NYC after the Lincoln Tunnel). They threatened us verbally as well.
My husband came out of the house holding his .357 caliper pistol up in the air and saying, "The next one of you Mother F***ers that takes a step closer to our house, I'll blow your F**kin' brains out!" He stayed in our doorway, never leaving our property.
Someone called the police and they came. They arrested my husband!!! The next morning in court one of the girls got up on the stand and in tears said, "He came across the street and held a gun to my 6 year old's head!" (Yeh right... the kid had not even been out there!)
Well, every time this thing came to court, she would not show up to go on the witness stand. Her younger sisters and their father and the kid would be there, but not her! Finally after about 5 times of this, and our witnesses showing up every time to defend my husband, all charges were dropped, "In the interest of Justice." I think she probably didn't show up, figuring that our witnesses would get tired of coming, but they all showed up faithfully every time, because we all wanted the noise and disturbances and nastiness to stop once and for all; we were all together on this 100%!
Actually, I say my husband, but he and I were not yet marred then, living together though. We chose the same Judge to marry us soon after this incident. (He even asked to "kiss the bride" for good luck! With my new husband's permission, I did ;) ).
Well! The kids must have been warned by the Police that day, because that night they tried to scare us by threatening us and surrounding our house with a gang. Some of them had sticks or what appeared maybe even to be pipe bombs! (We lived in Union City, NJ, the first busstop out of NYC after the Lincoln Tunnel). They threatened us verbally as well.
My husband came out of the house holding his .357 caliper pistol up in the air and saying, "The next one of you Mother F***ers that takes a step closer to our house, I'll blow your F**kin' brains out!" He stayed in our doorway, never leaving our property.
Someone called the police and they came. They arrested my husband!!! The next morning in court one of the girls got up on the stand and in tears said, "He came across the street and held a gun to my 6 year old's head!" (Yeh right... the kid had not even been out there!)
Well, every time this thing came to court, she would not show up to go on the witness stand. Her younger sisters and their father and the kid would be there, but not her! Finally after about 5 times of this, and our witnesses showing up every time to defend my husband, all charges were dropped, "In the interest of Justice." I think she probably didn't show up, figuring that our witnesses would get tired of coming, but they all showed up faithfully every time, because we all wanted the noise and disturbances and nastiness to stop once and for all; we were all together on this 100%!
Actually, I say my husband, but he and I were not yet marred then, living together though. We chose the same Judge to marry us soon after this incident. (He even asked to "kiss the bride" for good luck! With my new husband's permission, I did ;) ).
- Post starter
- #76
Well I decided, as it freaked my wife out when two of the little toerags mouthed off and I responded by seeking an altercation, that I have no need to get all aggressive. I'll try passive-aggressive for a change;)
Put simply, the way they foolishly endanger themselves and others, show no respect for road rules and laws, the chances are that in the next few years most of them will be involved in single/multi-vehicle accidents. As one of the local first responders, one of very few who will actually be able to don breathing apparatus in the first few minutes if say their car is on fire, I have the option to refuse (on the grounds of safety of course) to rescue the little darlings. I've performed too many rescues of obnoxious, ungrateful sods, I simply refuse to risk even a broken nail for these cherubs. Finally I realise the truth of what Sun Tzu meant when he said "If you sit by the river long enough you will see the body of your enemy float by" patience has never been one of my virtues, but now I need merely await the inevitable:woot:
Knowing I have PTSD and will relive it regardless of whether I help them or not, merely makes it easier - I already live with the guilt-trip of whether people I've saved were "worth" saving, one or two more won't hurt me. The serenity prayer even comes to my aid, I cannot make them respect others, I can make them wish they had.
Put simply, the way they foolishly endanger themselves and others, show no respect for road rules and laws, the chances are that in the next few years most of them will be involved in single/multi-vehicle accidents. As one of the local first responders, one of very few who will actually be able to don breathing apparatus in the first few minutes if say their car is on fire, I have the option to refuse (on the grounds of safety of course) to rescue the little darlings. I've performed too many rescues of obnoxious, ungrateful sods, I simply refuse to risk even a broken nail for these cherubs. Finally I realise the truth of what Sun Tzu meant when he said "If you sit by the river long enough you will see the body of your enemy float by" patience has never been one of my virtues, but now I need merely await the inevitable:woot:
Knowing I have PTSD and will relive it regardless of whether I help them or not, merely makes it easier - I already live with the guilt-trip of whether people I've saved were "worth" saving, one or two more won't hurt me. The serenity prayer even comes to my aid, I cannot make them respect others, I can make them wish they had.
Hi AS,
I wanted to post this here for a while (in response to your previous answer to me) and didn't get here. These things preclude an interchange being assertive:
Swear words.
Personal comments.
Put downs.
Aggressive body language.
Sarcasm.
Aggressive tone of voice.
Any behaviour or body language that's intention is to intimidate, threaten, shame, induce fear or degrade and no matter how subtle.
Assertive behaviour considers both parties point of view and is non threatening.
You say that assertive behaviour can include consequences and I would agree. Assertive behaviour can progress in stages and lead to consequences but assertive behaviour never leads to threats. There is a huge differences between threats and consequences.
I do think there are times when reactions other than assertive ones are appropriate but when it comes to assertiveness specifically then these apply.
***
I am sorry your concern about your children's safety is making things difficult. Your PTSD is from an accident isn't it? Do you think the hypervigilence is creeping in and being globalised a bit? It's darn hard to think that anything is relatively safe isn't it. One of the really nasty things about PTSD.
I wanted to post this here for a while (in response to your previous answer to me) and didn't get here. These things preclude an interchange being assertive:
Swear words.
Personal comments.
Put downs.
Aggressive body language.
Sarcasm.
Aggressive tone of voice.
Any behaviour or body language that's intention is to intimidate, threaten, shame, induce fear or degrade and no matter how subtle.
Assertive behaviour considers both parties point of view and is non threatening.
You say that assertive behaviour can include consequences and I would agree. Assertive behaviour can progress in stages and lead to consequences but assertive behaviour never leads to threats. There is a huge differences between threats and consequences.
I do think there are times when reactions other than assertive ones are appropriate but when it comes to assertiveness specifically then these apply.
***
I am sorry your concern about your children's safety is making things difficult. Your PTSD is from an accident isn't it? Do you think the hypervigilence is creeping in and being globalised a bit? It's darn hard to think that anything is relatively safe isn't it. One of the really nasty things about PTSD.
- Post starter
- #78
No my hypervigilance isn't from an accident, it is from seemingly innocuous situations, everyday stuff, growing out of proportion until there is actual blood, guts and the stench of blood, pus, vomit and sh*t. I didn't get my PTSD out of being deployed to a warzone, I got mine by virtue of being in "real situations" in normal everyday life. Having seen "normal" turn to "catastrophic" multiple times, I am eternally hyper, I'm constantly ready for the worst case outcome and try and head it off before it gets to where I'm at risk.
In counselling (group) the other day, we discussed anger. I don't experience "anger" like any normal person, everything goes from shades of gray to black and white, everything and everybody becomes an object, people who are on my side and whom I'm bound to protect, are white, everything else is in trouble. I have no difficulty in causing them significant harm in order to neutralise them (I've done so) and that is their problem in my book, they chose to put themselves in that position, thus they bought it and paid for it.
Trouble is I know just how 'over the top' this response can end up being, based upon what has happened to that point, but I'm not reacting to what has already happened, I'm reacting to what is about to happen. Not a superpower or psychic ability, just the result of experience, hyper-awareness, hyper-vigilance and the knowledge that my tolerance level is set at about 5/10, so 3+3+2 might not actually end up equaling 10, but 8/10 is not something I'm prepared to ignore. I don't like hurting people, I just seriously don't like getting hurt, or my family getting hurt. I go into every fight I've ever gone into expecting to be hospitalised (or worse), which means that is the level the game is about to be played at.
It troubles me, I try to avoid being placed in that situation because sooner or later I'll end up killing someone, in order to prevent them from doing what they were going to do and sincerely don't want to be trying to explain that in court. That said, I've just had a major setback (lost a job because apparently people were scared of me, go figure).
In counselling (group) the other day, we discussed anger. I don't experience "anger" like any normal person, everything goes from shades of gray to black and white, everything and everybody becomes an object, people who are on my side and whom I'm bound to protect, are white, everything else is in trouble. I have no difficulty in causing them significant harm in order to neutralise them (I've done so) and that is their problem in my book, they chose to put themselves in that position, thus they bought it and paid for it.
Trouble is I know just how 'over the top' this response can end up being, based upon what has happened to that point, but I'm not reacting to what has already happened, I'm reacting to what is about to happen. Not a superpower or psychic ability, just the result of experience, hyper-awareness, hyper-vigilance and the knowledge that my tolerance level is set at about 5/10, so 3+3+2 might not actually end up equaling 10, but 8/10 is not something I'm prepared to ignore. I don't like hurting people, I just seriously don't like getting hurt, or my family getting hurt. I go into every fight I've ever gone into expecting to be hospitalised (or worse), which means that is the level the game is about to be played at.
It troubles me, I try to avoid being placed in that situation because sooner or later I'll end up killing someone, in order to prevent them from doing what they were going to do and sincerely don't want to be trying to explain that in court. That said, I've just had a major setback (lost a job because apparently people were scared of me, go figure).
A
Anna
I agree about the anger.
I have learnt over the years how to be assertive without becoming aggressive. It was not an easy ride though.
Sadly my partner has 0 idea or tolerance of mental illness, so I have 0 support. When we argued he would shout I was aggressive, crazy which would just provoke me even more. In the end I was the one who had to learn how to control my anger as I realised he was not ever going to back down, one of those annoying people who always have to be right.
I try to stay calm and not to raise my voice when addressing an issue. It is damn hard though. I notice tone of voice and facial expressions really change the way in which something comes across.
I am ultra sensitive to facial expressions, tones of voice and things people say to me. I wear my heart on my sleeve and easily become offended or upset. In order to not get hurt, I build a wall around me and let few people in. I also try to avoid people.
Lots of people even those without mental illness also have assertiveness problems, and swallow a lot until it becomes too much, then they just explode with anger. I agree as piratelady says in a previous post, it can be learned. It took me years to master, but when you do, it is the greatest feeling finally having control.
If I feel anger I tend to walk away and tell the person I am arguing with that I cannot discuss this anymore and need to get away, I then go for a brisk walk.
Sometimes I just feel like I want to be alone, people really annoy me.
I have learnt over the years how to be assertive without becoming aggressive. It was not an easy ride though.
Sadly my partner has 0 idea or tolerance of mental illness, so I have 0 support. When we argued he would shout I was aggressive, crazy which would just provoke me even more. In the end I was the one who had to learn how to control my anger as I realised he was not ever going to back down, one of those annoying people who always have to be right.
I try to stay calm and not to raise my voice when addressing an issue. It is damn hard though. I notice tone of voice and facial expressions really change the way in which something comes across.
I am ultra sensitive to facial expressions, tones of voice and things people say to me. I wear my heart on my sleeve and easily become offended or upset. In order to not get hurt, I build a wall around me and let few people in. I also try to avoid people.
Lots of people even those without mental illness also have assertiveness problems, and swallow a lot until it becomes too much, then they just explode with anger. I agree as piratelady says in a previous post, it can be learned. It took me years to master, but when you do, it is the greatest feeling finally having control.
If I feel anger I tend to walk away and tell the person I am arguing with that I cannot discuss this anymore and need to get away, I then go for a brisk walk.
Sometimes I just feel like I want to be alone, people really annoy me.
Given that you can't predict the future and cannot possibly ever know what is about to happen, and particularly given the fact that you have PTSD from 'normal' situations turning 'catastrophic', do you think that it would be in your best interests to remove yourself from these situations as soon as you find yourself in that state? You say that you try to head things off before you're at risk, but I think that may be where there is a big problem... you need to remove yourself from the situation as soon as you realise you're in it, rather than trying to actively take steps to head anything off.
Think of it this way -
You mention about feeling the need to protect your family etc - how would your family feel if you were in this very situation - in Court, charged with a serious offense and facing jail time? Would they prefer that you had been able to walk away - together - as soon as the situation was not healthy or safe, or that you had acted on impulse, trying to prevent what you *think* someone else is going to do?
Think of it this way -
You mention about feeling the need to protect your family etc - how would your family feel if you were in this very situation - in Court, charged with a serious offense and facing jail time? Would they prefer that you had been able to walk away - together - as soon as the situation was not healthy or safe, or that you had acted on impulse, trying to prevent what you *think* someone else is going to do?
- Post starter
- #81
That is what scares me, that is what gives me nightmares and cold sweats. I'm trying to back out of a situation and the other parties are seeing that as me trying to "run away" or "avoid" them out of fear of them. I get backed into a corner and *bam*, all of a sudden the shutters come down, everything is black and white and it's on. For the average person, seeing someone try and avoid them due to their bluffing or bolshy behaviour, tends to (or seems to) embolden them further. How are they to realise that I'm not avoiding them because of what they are threatening to do, but because of what I'm going to do if push comes to shove.
How does assertiveness work when people aren't willing to listen or more importantly aren't picking up on body language and other signs? There is a major difference between the body language of someone withdrawing out of fear and someone trying to escape a situation before it becomes violent. It seems that whilst ever "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" that there will be those who lack the basic skill set to read the environmental clues and body language cues, I have to learn to deal with that, so do many people on this board. The world is populated with people who have managed to bluff their way through and believe that noone can or will stand up to them.
I live in fear, and have discussed it with people who know me, what I've done and who I am (and whose opinion I respect) of what happens if I happen upon a bank robbery or armed robbery while I have the kids with me. I know that historically I tend to act without thought or any regard for my own safety, I hate myself for that, I'd hate myself far more if I endangered others doing so. I suspect my lack of conscious thought or impulsiveness may be due to the co-morbid Rapid Cycling BiPolar Affective Disorder (BPAD Type) and that comorbidity is not unusual (in fact it appears to be normative Dilsaver, 2010; Simon, et al, 2004).
But these are simply labels, historically there was always that person in the tribe or group who went toward the danger for the sake of others, it was a valuable and admirable trait, and contributed to group survival. Unfortunately it is a self-limiting trait, as those who go toward danger without regard for their own safety tend not to pass their genes on as often as those who don't. Then we've moved into civilized society, where those traits are not highly regarded unless they are confined to specific, highly regulated, highly disciplined roles. When one is no longer able to act in such roles, where the self-preservation deficit disorder is highly valued, then such behaviour begins to be viewed as problematic as self-help remedies are not highly regarded in supposedly "law abiding society".
Dilsaver, S.D., 2010 'How to Treat PTSD in Patients with Comborbid Mood Disorders' Current Psychiatry, vol.9(4), pp.48-61
Link Removed
Simon, N.M., Otto, M.W., Wisniewski, S.R., Fossey, M., Sagduyu, K., Frank, E., Sachs, G.S., Nierenberg, A.A., Thase, M.E. & Pollack, M.H., 2004 'Anxiety Disorder Comorbidity in Bipolar Disorder Patients: Data from the First 500 Participants in the Systematic Treatment Enhancement Program for Bipolar Disorder (STEP-BD)' The American Journal of Psychiatry, vol.161(12), pp.2222-2229
[DLMURL]http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/data/Journals/AJP/3987/2222.pdf[/DLMURL]
How does assertiveness work when people aren't willing to listen or more importantly aren't picking up on body language and other signs? There is a major difference between the body language of someone withdrawing out of fear and someone trying to escape a situation before it becomes violent. It seems that whilst ever "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" that there will be those who lack the basic skill set to read the environmental clues and body language cues, I have to learn to deal with that, so do many people on this board. The world is populated with people who have managed to bluff their way through and believe that noone can or will stand up to them.
I live in fear, and have discussed it with people who know me, what I've done and who I am (and whose opinion I respect) of what happens if I happen upon a bank robbery or armed robbery while I have the kids with me. I know that historically I tend to act without thought or any regard for my own safety, I hate myself for that, I'd hate myself far more if I endangered others doing so. I suspect my lack of conscious thought or impulsiveness may be due to the co-morbid Rapid Cycling BiPolar Affective Disorder (BPAD Type) and that comorbidity is not unusual (in fact it appears to be normative Dilsaver, 2010; Simon, et al, 2004).
But these are simply labels, historically there was always that person in the tribe or group who went toward the danger for the sake of others, it was a valuable and admirable trait, and contributed to group survival. Unfortunately it is a self-limiting trait, as those who go toward danger without regard for their own safety tend not to pass their genes on as often as those who don't. Then we've moved into civilized society, where those traits are not highly regarded unless they are confined to specific, highly regulated, highly disciplined roles. When one is no longer able to act in such roles, where the self-preservation deficit disorder is highly valued, then such behaviour begins to be viewed as problematic as self-help remedies are not highly regarded in supposedly "law abiding society".
Dilsaver, S.D., 2010 'How to Treat PTSD in Patients with Comborbid Mood Disorders' Current Psychiatry, vol.9(4), pp.48-61
Link Removed
Simon, N.M., Otto, M.W., Wisniewski, S.R., Fossey, M., Sagduyu, K., Frank, E., Sachs, G.S., Nierenberg, A.A., Thase, M.E. & Pollack, M.H., 2004 'Anxiety Disorder Comorbidity in Bipolar Disorder Patients: Data from the First 500 Participants in the Systematic Treatment Enhancement Program for Bipolar Disorder (STEP-BD)' The American Journal of Psychiatry, vol.161(12), pp.2222-2229
[DLMURL]http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/data/Journals/AJP/3987/2222.pdf[/DLMURL]
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