Service dogs and training

[Gs172003]

Again, that's at work. I have made it clear that I would not put that patch on him at work a...

Nope.

The ADA doesn’t give people the right to be on private property. It gives them the right to br...

This.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I know I said I wasn't going to talk more about the patch and I'm not going to. I thought this would be good to add and hear why a handler uses these patches.

I'm named in the video so here's the back story. I posted a video of the 2 men following me in Walgreens. She commented on that video that said something like that's when her claws come out and why she has patches that say "don't you dare f*cking touch". It's what got me thinking about and wanting one of those patches as though I do have the mobility harness cape made into a vest, I wanted something that was removeable to be able to fit enviroments (on in places like Walmart and Walgreens and off in places like work and so forth) and one on the vest we use today that has the mobility buckle.

After the discussion on the thread I went back on that video of mine to ask her if she has ever had access issues due to those patches and she made this video to answer that. (So though I am not discussing it and hope I don't get in trouble for carrying it on. I wanted to give you all a bit of perspective from someone that's used those patches for about 7 yrs give or take. Nugget is 7 yrs old so she's had him quite a few yrs. You still may not agree and that's ok but still thought it would add to the discussion to share).

Why my do I use offensive gear?

 

[joeylittle]

I clicked through to some links, just because the convo is interesting. I did not know that a service animal can be refused public access if allowing said access fundamentally alters the nature of public offering.

The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies, practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements. If admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program, service animals may be prohibited. In addition, if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken, that animal may be excluded.

...In most settings, the presence of a service animal will not result in a fundamental alteration. However, there are some exceptions. For example, at a boarding school, service animals could be restricted from a specific area of a dormitory reserved specifically for students with allergies to dog dander. At a zoo, service animals can be restricted from areas where the animals on display are the natural prey or natural predators of dogs, where the presence of a dog would be disruptive, causing the displayed animals to behave aggressively or become agitated. They cannot be restricted from other areas of the zoo.

Source: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.pdf

This is quite similar to what would allow you to block a person from accessing something open to the public, even if it's on private property. So, if for some reason there was a restaurant that had the express purpose of offering food in a family-friendly, no-profanity zone...any human being who was in violation of that with an article of clothing could be turned away, and that's not discrimination. It's just a variation on announcing "no shirt, no shoes, no service".

So, stands to reason that the same rule of thumb would apply with access for a service animal. And, as clothing is generally removable/coverable (like in the case of the patch Lost is talking about, or turning a shirt inside out, as I think JustMe mentioned) - it's a pretty easy fix.

I also didn't know that in the US, religious institutions and organizations are exempt from ADA access laws. States might have applicable provisions, but that's one that an owner/handler would need to look up.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I also didn't know that in the US, religious institutions and organizations are exempt from ADA access laws.

In most cases yes because of seperation of church and State. Churches are not governed by the ADA unless that church is gaining any sort of government funding. But, if one has an access issue at a certian church (in general - obviously if we went to church he would be dress professionally) then it's best to see if they are in any way governed by government such as government assistance.

Some zoos do allow access as I have seen handlers at zoos. But some don't. It's best to call in my opinion.

So, stands to reason that the same rule of thumb would apply with access for a service animal. And, as clothing is generally removable/coverable (like in the case of the patch Lost is talking about, or turning a shirt inside out, as I think JustMe mentioned) - it's a pretty easy fix.

Just as easy as taking it off and putting it in my bag. And one needs to plan for the enviroment. Going to Walmart then the patch is fine. Going to Disney and it's best it's not on there. But in general it's a nice "tool" to have. His mobility harness cape/made into vest that says "don't you dare touch" on his back in big letters does wonders. I'm hoping a patch will do almost the same wonders.

 

[Friday]

You all are stating that someone could legally kick me out of Walmart because I have the word "f*ck" on my shirt?

Yep.

Private Property.

Businesses, regardless of the nature of the business, are on private property. Someone owns the building, or is leasing the space. That person has the right to decide how they want people to “be” on their property.

Some businesses are employee only. If you’re not an employee, you’re not allowed in the building. Some businesses are members only, if you don’t have a membership you’re not allowed on the property. Some businesses only allow people inside who are over a certain age (or under a certain age). Some businesses are customer based, and you’re a) only allowed in the customer areas of the building, b) must maintain the standards of behavior the business requires (no loitering, for example, or must wear a jacket and tie, or must pay a cover at the door).

No one, except the building owners, have the “right” to be on private property. Not even police, fire, EMS, etc. can be on private property without the permission of the owners except in a very limited fashion.

Antidiscrimination laws and disability access laws don’t grant people rights above and beyond what the rest of the population has. They grant them the same rights. You can still be kicked out of a business, same as everyone else, for exactly the same reasons. Because it’s private property.

 

[Freida]

Some zoos do allow access as I have seen handlers at zoos. But some don't. It's best to call in my opinion.

I found this out just a couple months ago. We went to our local zoo and they had me register at the front desk and then gave me a map with areas I needed to "walk quickly through and not stop" because it was the predator area. That had not even crossed my mind!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Antidiscrimination laws and disability access laws don’t grant people rights above and beyond what the rest of the population has.

Never said they did. If people don't get kicked out of Walmart for having "f*ck you" on a shirt (they don't. Worn a shirt that said "f*ck you" many times to Walmart and all the other public places I go and would take Chopper to) then they wouldn't kick out a dog with "f*ck" on his vest.

They cannot kick me out soley because I have a service dog. That's discrimination. And if other's can wear shirts that say "f*ck" on them then my dog can have "f*ck" on his patch. If not then that's also discrimination. Why shirts and not a service dog patch?

Disney? Is well known for having kids and generally being kid friendly. There I would expect to have issues with a shirt and a patch. But at Walmart?

And it honestly doesn't matter because it is a removeable velcroed on patch. If there are access issues I can simply remove the patch. It honestly is that simple.

But if it's a rule then that rule needs to be known to the public. If it is a "cuss free zone" then we don't wear the patch. Really and honestly that simple.

I never said I had a right beyond what others have. I said I have a right equal to what others have. If people can wear shirts that say "f*ck" on them but they make a stink out of a service dog patch with "f*ck" on it then there's where I have issues.

zoo

Is also a "kid friendly" place like Disney. Wouldn't wear it to a zoo either. I am simply stating Walmart, Walgreens, grocery stores, restraunts are a maybe and maybe not even there. Everyday places that have proven to be very difficult to me and the public. But even if a zoo was difficult for me and the public I still wouldn't wear it to a zoo because who is most likely to go to zoos? Kids!

You dress your dog approprate for the enviroment. I am a big believer in that and follow that rule of thumb personally.

 

[Gs172003]

In most cases yes because of seperation of church and State. Churches are not governed by th...

Our zoo allows them but they would not allow that patch. There are areas that they aren't allowed, like the aviary but other than that they have access anywhere.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I guess that reply should have been under yours @Zoogal and not edited in. Sorry. Habit from adding in things later. Refer to the bottom of my last reply.

 

[Gs172003]

I guess that reply should have been under yours @Zoogal and not edited in....

Lol it's ok

 

[EveHarrington]

This is the kind of craziness that is happening in the world of ESA’s.

Can you imagine if this girl killed a dog? No biggie, she only killed a hamster. And then blamed it on Spirit Airlines. I think she should be ashamed of herself. Killing your own ESA? Disgusting.

I’m sure she could have begged people in the terminal to take the hamster if she really wanted/needed to fly. Easier to just kill the hamster I suppose.

Hamster flushed down toilet after college student's pet denied flight on Spirit Airlines

 

[lostforgottensoul]

ESA’s

Are different then service dogs.

ESAs require zero training and only provide emotional support. A service animal requires extensive training for 2 to 3 yrs (which includes how to act properly in public) and does physical tasks or physical things to midigate one's disability that they cannot do themselves (as well as providing emotional support). Example: alerting to anxiety and panic, stopping self injury actions, being a barrier between you and others, deep pressure therapy which stops disocissation (in my case) and soothes panic and anxiety, nightmare/night terror waking, medication retrevial, picking up items, retrieving items, opening/closing doors, finding an exit, finding a person to help and the list goes on.

Service animals can only be a dog and miniture horse in some cases but ESAs can be other animals like cats (however, claiming a peacock is an ESA I think is a bit extreme).

Because ESAs don't require training they cannot be in public, non-pet friendly locations, with you and are not recongized by the ADA. The rights an ESA has is by the Air Carrier Access act (ACAA) which is allows them to fly for free with you in the cabin (which is where we are seeing issues) and the Fair Housing Act which says they must be premitted in non-pet friendly housing and cannot be charged a fee. But they cannot go to public non-pet friendly places with you.

And ESA is important and have their own job but I wanted to advise the difference as many don't realize they are two different things and many times when you see an ESA in non-pet friendly locations it's because the handler really doesn't know the difference and maybe they need a service dog instead of an ESA but they just didn't realize it. That's been my experience anyway. So, thought I'd throw in some education. Hope this helps some people.