• We are a multilingual website again. Read the notice about this.
  • Understand AI use at MyPTSD: all AI use is explained in our AI help page. AI use is by choice here. It exists if you want it, but does nothing unless you choose to use it.

Spiritual Abuse From Toxic Christianity.

  • Post starter Post starter Deleted member 12723
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
had great fun writing a paper, Deconstructing Maru (Bessie Head) - but that's about it. But I must be honest, the Bible in its entirety is a difficult read - And some of those old prophets sound just bat shit crazy.

Thank you for introducing me to Bessie Head. Maru's solution appears to be what's needed to undo the spiritual abusers we're discussing here. They see their victims as 'other', 'it', objects to be used rather than nurtured and appreciated as fellow humans. Do we need to get in there and challenge the abusers just by being as precisely and sweetly Christian as Jesus taught? Takes a very strong constitution...

Aye, the OT characters were rather bat shit - I mean, whoever would imagine that God wants you to murder your son...? And what was Ezekiel on when he took his fiery flying wheel trips...? Some of these people sound Sectionable. It makes me wonder whether spiritual abusers take their authority from these types rather than the NT Jesus.
 
The majority of Christians are totally Bible-illiterate and don't understand the issue of forgiveness = and much abuse is inflicted when people are expected to forgive. I don't want to hijack this thread any more than it has already been hijacked (by ME :D ) - but since @gizmo has not objected, I want to add that Luke is the only gospel that gets it right: Forgive IF the person asks for forgiveness. It's a pity Christianity has swept the concept of atonement out the door. We are under no obligation to forgive unless we are asked to forgive. After all, God does not. Who are these f*ckwits to expect us to be greater, more magnanimous, and more forgiving than God? Eish![DOUBLEPOST=1401254539,1401254413][/DOUBLEPOST]
Some of these people sound Sectionable.
:hilarious: Oh hell, yes!
 
Interesting.. Yes, they have to ask God for forgiveness(and mean it) to get it. (But my abusers never will..)

A pastor(women) told me forgiveness(for humans) means not seeking revenge. Deciding not to. She said it was a very bloody and brutal world when the Bible was written. 'Eye for an eye' was the KIND version of justice before 'forgiving'(not seeking revenge) was introduced. She said it's not an emotion- it's a decision. And that if I have decided to not ever pay back(because I'm to good and smart to do that- don't ever want to be like them!) I have forgiven them.
 
Last edited:
I don't want to hijack this thread any more than it has already been hijacked (by ME :D )
:laugh: Pencil, you have good sense of humor. I don't think you hijacked it. I think you are raising the awareness which is massively lacking in today's universe.

I am sure gizmo shared this content to bring it into attention, so people can be careful before going in wrong direction. I root for such awareness acts.

There are misleading stuff everywhere. Subtle misleadings. One online experience I would like to share here. I was in search of connecting with a certain deity. I googled it and some people said you have to summon that certain deity. You can summon any deity like that. Now this is wrong. I googled summon's meaning which say ordering and it didn't ring bell to me at all. How can you order someone who is higher than you? Some said invoke the deity. That is right, that "invoke" word came from the point of giving respect to higher deity. You are calling them for assistance. You want assistance because you are new to it or may be you are looking for something else you are needing/wanting to know. Like some queries you want to resolve. It can be anything. It depends how you ask it, what way you choose it and how you perform it. There are so many things that matters in this process. We may not know all of it, but we can do it.

There are many things like this. We all have so much work to do. It took a month for me to clear up this misleading.

As for religion, it will be always error prone sadly. It is made by humans. We all know: To err is human. There we go. If we take religion to connect with goddess/god rather than clinging on it, we might succeed. If you are directly calling them, you can connect with them. No gods said "make me religion." There must be reason behind this, with that all gods respected our choice to establish some religions. See? It depends on us. To me, it feels like free will.

It's like you are given lot of ways, choices. We need to be careful what we choose. Sometimes it can be extremely hard. Not an easy path I believe. One certainly needs awareness. I root for awareness.
 
Seems like it locks me into a bad deal
This. I still don't understand the concept of forgiving. Still trying to work out it.
The hurting other people thing
Also this. Mostly vicious religious people told me "you hurt me because you are not following my way. You didn't perform the way I wished." After some time they dumped their anger on me. I never understood their acts. :confused:
 
@zaniara
You make important points in your two posts above, IMHO. Forgiveness and love are decisions. M Scott Peck writes at length and very persuasively on how love is a decision. Sartre wrote also that there is no love apart from the deeds of love. That is, the personal choice to act from a position of love. But, I would say that love is always informed by emotion.

Still, unlike the decision to love, forgiveness is a two-way dynamic, as @Pencil underlines in post #98.
Restorative justice processes are often very successful exactly because there is this two-way dynamic where understanding and forgiveness are sought.

But some offenders - perhaps many - do not want to be forgiven: they don't think they've done wrong, or they recognise that the asking might prejudice their legal case (in the same way as we're often told by our car insurance companies and lawyers not to apologise), or they don't want to lose face by humbling themselves to ask for forgiveness. Still others sadistically want to prolong their victim's suffering by withholding apology and the plea for forgiveness.

So I don't think forgiveness is as simple as your pastor indicates - that is, the unilateral act in a vacuum of giving up the desire for revenge. What happens when the offender just carries on offending, taking advantage of the free pass you've given them? Does one just carry on accepting the abuse like a doormat because one has irrevocably unilaterally given up any thought of revenge, which in our societies includes justice and punishment, towards the abuser?

For those who set store by Christianity and pertinent to the original thrust of this thread, I would ask did Jesus teach that we should become doormats? Turn-the-other-cheek is often advised whilst failing to give any weight to Jesus's teaching in regard to e.g. whipping fraudsters and physically throwing them out of polite society, attaching millstones to child abusers' necks and chucking them in the ocean, shaking the dust from one's feet and leaving town, being a sword to sever families in dispute and being a cause of that dispute in the cause of Godliness, insisting that wrongdoers should not be allowed to worship at the temple until they'd sought the forgiveness of their victims...

Also, my humble opinion is that modern 'civilisation' is every bit as bloody and brutal as Biblical times - the 20th Century saw the most wars and killing per capita in human history. The difference is that now our methods are far more sophisticated and often hidden from view of most people who are not on the spot.

I know, it's all a difficult area to disentangle, But, to my mind, it would be so much easier if we had clear direction on wrong and right- and dumped the erosive post-modern amorality/moral relativism (e.g. it's fine, all right and proper to prosecute a starving, poverty-stricken old lady for shoplifting a half pound of cheese whilst no banker has ever been indicted, nor will be, for market fixing which robbed millions of people of $millions of their pensions...?). For all its many faults, organised religion generally fulfilled that fundamental need and did teach at least rudimentary right from wrong, good from evil. And we wonder why Muslims in the West are increasingly asking for their communities to be ruled by Sharia law which still upholds, however imperfectly, these distinctions....
 
Last edited:
Perhaps there are two flavors of forgiving, and it would be helpful if they had different names.

There is reconciliation-forgiving - which is a two way street and requires atonement etc.
There is also disengagement-forgiving - which can be unilateral and implies only that one is not going to seek revenge (in the sense of retribution over and above what is required to stop further harm from occurring and enforce the law.)

The emotions associated with these must, obviously, be different.

For me the moral stuff is pretty clear - but that's because I am a moral philosopher. Kant sums it up for me, "Treat humanity (the capacity to make moral and other decisions) whether in the person of yourself or others, always as an end in itself, and never simply as a means. When

Mostly vicious religious people told me "you hurt me because you are not following my way. You didn't perform the way I wished." After some time they dumped their anger on me.

They were treating you as merely a means to satisfy their desires. They were not respecting you as an end in yourself, as an autonomous person of dignity with ultimate value.
 
I call myself a Christian for 2 reasons: 1) I'm culturally a Christian - I celebrate Easter and Christmas, and 2) as a system it makes intellectual sense to me (although I thought it was a badly conceived fairy tale most of my life).

Anyway, regarding forgiveness: Two 'Christians' stole from me - in very indirect ways - during the last 3 months. It boils down to me losing a fair amount of money.

My dilemma is: I am angry, and even if they beg me for forgiveness, I'm not interested in 'hating' them or 'forgiving' them or 'taking revenge'. All I'm interested in is them paying me what they owe me.

Where does that leave me? What does a 'good Christian' do? I don't want to be a good Christian, I am pissed off, I want what they owe me. No, God will not provide. God has never provided. People, usually non-Christians, have helped me in the past.

I am angry. Sorry.
 
Oh God, @Pencil, that's awful. I would be fuming too. Please don't be sorry. Anger is normal and healthy!

Restoration is an issue that occurred to me as I was writing my last post on this thread, though I didn't want to add anything else to the debate at that point apart from mentioning restorative justice which is reported to work very well where it's fully supported.

When you've had money, goods, services, health, family, your life etc stolen from you, restoration is IMHO essential. Apparently, it very rarely happens.When it does then one can consider the forgiveness thing.

My position is that 'Good Christians' are those who fight injustice and cruelty. The Christians one encounters in many churches are nominal Christians, in my lengthy experience. Like you, I have met far more self-professed atheists who are very good Christians in practice.

Meanwhile, are these evil Christians church members? Could you meet with their minister? (This is something I did - it was, like the curate's egg, good in parts. But I baulked at the priest's encouragement that I should have hope for a better life when no one was stopping the crime etc etc. However, the 'christian' offender was outed amongst her churchy pals. )
 
Take heart. Worldviews and beliefs can steamroll you, but you do have recourse.

A rara avis of sorts, I consider myself a secular Christian. Like the Gandhi quote earlier in the thread, I am attracted to many of the teachings of Jesus, but not to Christianity as practiced. I am a self-cured former fundamentalist (now some decades past), yet my parting with Christianity was not ugly, and left my appreciation for its revolutionary teachings intact. There is already a quote earlier in the thread of the summary Jesus provided in two commandments, in which I continue to find a source of inspiration. I am, however, an atheist. I'd be happy to explain more about the apparent contradictions, but that would be lengthy and off-topic.

My hope is to address some of the issues in this thread that Christians, believers in other faiths, and atheists will not find strident or offensive, nor will I depend on false claims or unshareable beliefs. I claim no special knowledge, nor have access to any.

The pressure described in the opening post is common not only across religions, but to many social and political worldviews that claim exclusive truth.

There is a weakness in each of us that many wish to exploit for their own gains. Once you take stock of it, you own the keys to a good part of your own psychological well-being, even if surrounded by rejection. There is no mystery to this, and you will recognize my point immediately. So, this is not new or earth-shaking, just something we often overlook, since it is always there.

People are very uncomfortable with uncertainty. I think most people want to make sense of the world, be it out of natural curiosity, wonder, and/or the need to fit into a bigger picture, and when faced with our own ignorance ~ anywhere from being made to feel foolish in conversation, to feeling angst about the great questions in life ~ we seek refuge from the great unease that results. Too, we do not wish to suffer the mocking and bullying that goes on around us when we do not conform to local practice.

For frankly most of us, any world view will do, as long as it fulfills that need. Yes, I am suggesting that much of core beliefs are a function of where you were born, your family religion, and the norms of the society around you. I am not claiming them to be wrong, however, nor do I wish to convert you to another viewpoint.

What I am suggesting is that you seriously undertake "rolling your own" understanding in a deliberate fashion. By that I mean critically examining all around you, as if starting from scratch, and rebuilding. However, this is an enormously difficult task, as those coached in the various belief systems are backed by years, decades, or even centuries of providing easy and glib rebuttals to any objections raised. Speak out prematurely, and you may find yourself more embarrassed and put-upon than ever.

(And should you decide to reaffirm your faith, more power to you. It is more than likely than not that you will be better for it, having separated the wheat from the chaff.)

Consider for a moment the great advantages of taking on a worldview on the basis of authority and custom alone. Not only is one greatly and instantly relieved of doubt, but its a short-cut to group defense, pat answers, and personal acceptance. An end to bullying. Better yet that the leaders seem to know what to say to others, and provide something to repeat when pressed. All is good, certainty reigns, and an unfortunate mindset of smug superiority arises from having all the answers to everything.

Even Jesus doubted in the Garden of Gethsemane. It is not an evil thing, but a function of our human limitations.

On the other hand, developing your own view is to expose yourself to ridicule, sometimes extreme. Not having pat
answers and admitting to uncertainty can seem weak, even perhaps for some, loathsome (via demonization of all aspects concerning group outsiders). It is a lot harder to do. And you even have to fess up all the time about how you were wrong yesterday, and right today (at least, that is how any honest work-in-progress inquiry is perceived).

My own journey began by investigating those behaviors I could not seem to change, even for my deity. In my case, science provided the guidance needed to understand and accept myself. More, it has allowed me a renewed perspective on sin, seeing now as I do just how much people are acting out from an inner wound or anguish, or deep feelings nearly out of their control. I am more forgiving today than before, strangely enough.

Because I declared my choice, let it not dissuade you from your own. There is conceptual room for a deity in my worldview, simply not proof. I remain on guard for the arrival of any new data, but am also at peace with the choices made. What has changed most, after many years of research, is my awareness of what drives us, the remaining uncertainties that are part of our condition, and my ability to fend off attacks from any quarter.

If for any reason I have managed to express myself in a way of interest to you, by PM or in-thread discussion I would be happy to share anything regarding the above on request. Due to a quite variable health condition, response time can range from minutes to days, unfortunately.

-Aristides
[Pardon such a long post for one unknown to you and new to your community.]
 
Pencil you did not hijack this thread. It is a complex issue and raises so many different aspects of SA. I had to take a break because I have not yet healed from my experiences. I have learned so much.

There is more information on the damage being done and many people are wise enough to leave toxic churches.

Mine just went on for so many years. Having the people back in my daughter and the kids lives.

I am staying out of it and if it blows up in my daughters life,, so be it.

I do not allow my daughter to pass on messages to me through her.

So far so good.

I have so learned so much. I had no idea that this affected so many people here. I am so sad about what you all suffered and endured.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Donation drives

2026 Donation Goal

Goal
$1,800.00
Earned
$910.00
This donation drive ends in
0 hours, 0 minutes, 0 seconds
  50.6%

Trending content

Featured content

Back
Top Bottom