The Double Bind - Part Ii

[lostforgottensoul]

Everything is based on non sense. And there is intolerable pain no matter what the choice the victim makes. And, of course, it is all the victims fault. But the victim is given nothing but conflicting and impossible tasks to perform. All of which clearly lead to punishment or humiliation or degradation or abuse.

Indeed. For about 6 years of therapy I always thought that the punishment happened because I made the wrong choices. Today, I realize there was no right choice. They were all "wrong".

What led you to decide that what you were getting wasn't 'love'?

My path took YEARS. At first I navigated the world always in a defensive stance (which is how I was when I came here) and i watched other people and learned how 'to be' in the world mocking others. But also fearing all were just a sec away from f*cking with me.

Not sure if this is what you are asking.

It took me years in therapy to even see that it was abuse and wasn't the normal right way so i'm unsure fully how i navigated the world before.

 

[scout86]

I always thought that the punishment happened because I made the wrong choices.

The way I took it, I didn't think I made wrong choices, I just thought I WAS wrong. Not 'mistaken', or 'in error', I thought I was deeply and truly "Wrong" and there was nothing I could do about it. I guess I also thought that what my mother called 'love' WAS love. The word still creeps me out and I avoid using it as much as possible.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I thought I was deeply and truly "Wrong" and there was nothing I could do about it. I guess I also thought that what my mother called 'love'

Oh, I did as well and I am still struggling with "I am bad". So I guess that is the bigger thought.

And I thought it was all love. Most especially the "gentle sex" and that they were punishing me because I was bad and deserved what I got.

 

[shimmerz]

I thought I was deeply and truly "Wrong"

Someone was wrong, but it wasn't you.

there was nothing I could do about it.

That would be a sign, imho, of a double bind that has been deeply seated. So much so that it has become an uncontested program in your psyche. For protection purposes of course.

M is most likely trying to get you to challenge it.

 

[scout86]

M is most likely trying to get you to challenge it.

Yeah, usually with his truly bizarre sense of humor! And, actually, with those 'good double binds'.

 

[scout86]

It might be worth adding, my dad was a high school guidance counselor. In Jr High & high school, I used to read his old copies of Psychology Today. :rolleyes: So, when M asked me "So, ARE you are problem or do you HAVE a problem?" I knew the 'right' answer. LOL My mom never set up such easy 'questions'. LOL Now that I think about it, with her it was never really questions. Not in the sense that there could be an answer anyway.

 

[Tinyflame]

how do you ever know what an accurate interpretation of an interaction is? You take your best guess and see it the outcome lines up with your expectations? And then, how to you interact with 'normal' people? You expect them to be like everyone you're familiar with, right?

then you move on to a place where people aren't messing with you but are behaving in a straightforward, well intended way, what do you do then?

I identify what I feel, at least at my gut level, if possible why/ what actions 'caused' (ilicited) it. Then I ask myself 3 questions: 1) If that were my response or actions to someone else (Ie it were reversed), what would I expect the other person to think of it? 2) Again, if the situation were reversed and it was I doing 'whatever', what would my feelings towards the person on the receiving end be? And lastly, would 9/10 people draw the same conclusion as I have, after #1 & #2? If the answer is yes, I think the conclusion I've drawn is reasonable.

 

[shimmerz]

how do you ever know what an accurate interpretation of an interaction is?

Scout, I don't think this is so much based on an interpretation of an interaction. It is a real interaction. Measurable. If someone were on the outside looking in they would clearly see that the person caught in a double bind was, in fact, being placed into an impossible position.

It is just this that traps the victim. Because the victim is kept in the dark or lied to or ignored or neglected or told that 'that didn't hurt' or that they 'are just being sensitive' or they 'aren't good enough - EVER'. But the fact of the matter is that a person that is held in a double bind slowly loses their sanity. It is an abusers tactic that works very well because most who are not stakeholders in the family are taught to stay out of other's business. And because Stakeholders know the game and don't ever want to be the target of a double bind tactic they play along with the abuser and target the victim as well. That is when this becomes systemic.

Not sure if I am reading or addressing the question within the correct context but that is what I come up with when I read what you have asked.

You mean families don't function like that?

Yes, far too many do unfortunately. It is, however not ideal, as we all know, otherwise, most of us wouldn't spend a large portion of our days on this board trying to undo the damage that has been done to us by our families.

 

[The Albatross]

All the elements are there in my own familial dynamic, and it makes some sense to me:

"Necessary for a double bind situation.
1. 2 or more people - 1 is the victim (scapegoat)
2. It is repeated over and over again (not a one time thing) - it is a pattern
3. primary injunction - telling you to do something or severe consequences (may be implied)
4. secondary injunction that directly conflicts with the first injunction
5. perpetrator must have a relationship (power dynamic) over the victim

This tactic he says, will literally drive a person crazy. slowly, systematically. The family is actually ill (if systemic in nature, which it usually becomes) whilst the scapegoat (victim) is actually just the target and becomes a container for the family illness due to the gas lighting."

I dunno about crazy, but I do know the helplessness/hopelessness/depression to the point of suicide attempts that this can cause and the long term damage it can do even after a child is old enough to become independent. After all how many 10-14 year olds become suicidal (I did).

"When every option is painful, you're creating a huge amount of anguish for the person.. ", from the opening post video at around 10 1/2 - 11 minutes or so rang the bells for me. I don't really need to explore it more but it does pretty succinctly identify the dynamic in play and the double bind theory/idea is in line with my own familial abuse pattern.

I mistakenly thought the death of my father/abuser would alter the familial dynamic, but it was not so in my case in spite of my own best efforts.

Gonna have to come back to this, my brain is a bit scrambled up this morning.

Changed the age in edit, if I'm honest about it I was suicidal from 9 or 10 to age 14.

 

[scout86]

@shimmerz , what I'm asking is, if you grew up expecting double binds, what happens when you meet people who don't dish them out. I get how the double bind thing works. BELIEVE me I do! To the best of my knowledge, I never had an interaction with my mother that didn't involve something like that. (By the time I was 8 or so, there just weren't many interactions.) What I'm thinking/asking about is, if you grow up thinking that's 'normal', it's both what you expect and what you know how to deal with. At least you think you know how to deal with it. Then, as an adult, you get exposed to human interactions that AREN'T like that...... How do you know how to interpret them? How DO you interpret them? I'm guessing you misread a lot of stuff because you have no real knowledge/experience to go by.

I identify what I feel, at least at my gut level,

I start having problems right there. Because my go to thought is that I'm "wrong" so it's hard to trust that gut level feeling.

 

[The Albatross]

Yup you DO misread a lot of stuff, because of perceptual bias and an inclination to have an affinity toward the familiar. That is how secondary woundings and other big or little T traumas occur.

 

[The Albatross]

It is hard to trust the gut level feeling/instinct often times because of the "trial and error" involved in trying to get out of the dynamic and it was hardwired in to us (me at least) what my "role" was. Reality shifting/shifters and the one being gaslighted on the butt end.