Trauma Reenactment Triangle

[Eleanor]

It does, and I know how hard that is, as a Mom to let them do it themselves. I am ok on little stuff, and I am learning to bite my tongue on big things. I try hard not to tell them what to do, but to offer different options and perspectives. For my H... It is trickier. It started out being a mutual effort to deal with his dissociation/PTSD episodes. And he did some EMDR and he doesn't "go all the way out" when he has episodes now - he says he doesn't have them anymore... or he says that when he is in. When he is out he will acknowledge that he "tips into crazy." But he is not dissociating the way he was (out of time, fuzzy on current details etc.) He is in the now - just stuck in a really really ugly interpretive place (the persecutor/vicitm positions for the most part.) So our dance puts me in the rescuer/victim spot - and I really appreciated the part of the forrest article where she said "the persecutor position is the most common exit point" in the sense that you have to be willing to be SEEN as the persecutor when you stop "running the bases" of the triangle.

What I need to do for me is just not engage with him when he is bad and I am not up to "not playing the game." I have to be brave and assured enough of myself and my ability to take care of myself (and potentially piss him off enough to leave me) that I can disengage and walk away and leave him to his own devices. He is a grown up after all. I have to be able to let him say/think whatever horrible thing he imagines without defending myself. Ironically, the more wrong and out there he is, the easier this is. The saner he stays the harder it is. At the same time, I took notes from the last time and reviewed a lot of the stuff he accused me of with my T - who has a pretty good bullshit detector and is totally willing to call me out on stuff - and she didn't think there was much to a lot of it.

What worries me about me is that my mother is the world's leading champion of ignoring things and "disappearing" them. And I worry that I learned to do that - so that there is something that is blatantly obvious to everyone else, but that I just can't see at all. :banghead:But maybe there isn't such a thing. :wtf: I just want the answer!!!!!

(silence. crickets chirping.)

It helps to have the pattern in mind - so when it starts I can take a minute, regroup and not play along.

 

[Meadowsweet]

It's also known as the drama triangle.

The rescuer needs to see others as victims or persecutors in order to maintain their image of self as good.
The victim needs rescuers and persecutors in order to maintain their image as either helpless or the survivor.
The one who doesn't need the others is the persecutor.

Too often, the person not playing a role as victim or saviour doesn't fit, they are the outsider. Hence, why many outsiders are viewed as the bad guy, without a second glance.

It is really messed up. But, to a minor extent it pervades any social group. Their are victims and saviours in social groups, and those outside of that group are most often considered lacking in some way.

Without it, then we all become responsible for ourselves (not for the things that happen to us - that's different), for our own well being and recovery.

 

[Valentino]

I find the Karpman Drama Triangle (originated by Dr. Stephen Karpman in 1968) to be immensely practical and valuable to understand relationship dynamics.

This is a diagram I like to refer to often, it's not perfect, but it offers a pretty good overview of the 3 roles:

I'll break it down into 3 major emotional clusters:
Persecutor -> Anger, Resentment, Hate, Judgement, Blame, Attack
Rescuer -> Fear, Anxiety, Worry, Panic, Care, Concern, Guilt, Defend
Victim -> Grief, Sadness, Vulnerable, Shame

Positive versions:
Persecutor -> Motivator, Teacher, Leader, Challenger
Rescuer -> Coach, Nurturer, Encourager, Supporter
Victim -> Survivor, Thriver, Creator, Grower

Negative versions:
Persecutor -> Abuser, Bully, Manipulator, Dominator, Villan, Inner Critic
Rescuer -> Enabler, Savior, People Pleaser, Hero
Victim -> Sufferer, Isolated, Helpless, Self-Abandoned

All three roles are victims:
- Persecutors are innocent victims pushing responsibility onto others.
- Rescuers are victims of neglecting their own needs by distracting themselves with guilt driven obligations of saving others & the world.
- Victims are helpless victims of persecutors needing a rescuer to take on their responsibilities.

To break out of the drama triangle is to identify healthy versions of all 3 roles with-in:
- Guide and challenge yourself to learn from experience and follow your passions.
- Be kind and nurture yourself to heal and recover from experience.
- Grieve to learn & let go of past experiences in order to transform into a creative survivor.

 

[Eleanor]

Wow. Very very helpful. Thank you.

 

[Venusian]

@Valentino, thank you. I have been trying to find a site that gives some examples of how to start moving out of the cycle so many of us get into. This one is great. It gives me a starting point in black and white. So many times I know what I want to do but to vocalize it is sometimes a challenge, I don't know what to say and here is a foundation I can build on. I would like to print this and present it to the group I am in, there was a lot of discussion but because we ran out of time there were still a lot of things left in limbo.

 

[Abstract]

@Valentino,
Thank you! That is extremely interesting. I am on my phone so can't do it justice but can already see how helpful it will be.

I haven't seen this before. Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Hashi]

I'm afraid I'm struggling with the Karpman thing, maybe the whole triangle idea in general and it's just that the Karpman diagram happens to be the most detailed here. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the purpose of it?

I'm unconvinced about the move to the "positive sides" (persecutor to challenger etc). I thought the idea was to get out of the triangle altogether.

I'm dubious about the move to positives partly because I'm not sure people have the awareness or ability to make a finely tuned shift. It feels a bit like an alcoholic planning to have just one drink. Partly because I find the descriptions confusing. For example, what the coach says. I've trained in coaching and not one of the things listed would be part of what I learnt, certainly not listening for 20 minutes. :eek: That would be more like a counsellor. The "I know you can do this" type stuff is a cheerleader. I see no coaching here.

I don't even relate the victim description to me as a victim, apart from the single word "oppressed". I think I live only on the Victim/Persecutor side of things - the last thing I would do is seek to hook up to a rescuer, and I don't expect anyone to take care of me or my responsibilities. I would hate that. But I seem to be a magnet for persecutors, and have a strong bullying tendency myself. I can see how the triangle places the victim in relation to a rescuer, but not so much on the victim-persecutor side. I can't see anything in the "move to survivor/thriver" that I would relate to a victim-persecutor relationship.

Am I the wrong kind of victim for this triangle? Is this meant to be for people who like rescuing and being rescued? I can't be the only person who doesn't, surely - there must be plenty of other lone rangers out there. I think I know some.

I'm surprised to feel this, because I find the parent/adult/child triangle in Transactional Analysis very helpful. I was hoping this other triangle might give me some insight to my victim-persecutor issues. But I find it difficult to see myself in it, or identify my experiences with it. Any thoughts? I'd like to understand better.

 

[Abstract]

Hashi,
From the little I know I don't view it like you are seeing it. I had not seen this last diagram until now as it is tiny on my phone screen. I had just read the synopsis under it.

Without having the ability to check my impressions at present I will give a basic description of how I see it.

Moving to positive IS getting out of the triangle as I understand it. Many similar behaviours to the unhealthy ones are healthy and it is often the motivation and management of boundaries that makes the difference.

If you look at the simpler diagram we don't have to neatly follow the diagram around in a pattern. We also don't have to show the particular examples of unhealthy behaviour that are mentioned.

For example I have done rescuer behaviour but not with idea of making someone dependent on me. I actually hate people being needy with me. It freaks me out and I have to manage my reactions to it. I tend to jump from rescuer to victim and don't spend that much time in the persecutor corner. Oh, and I don't identify with much of this particular description of victim either. I too have not had a history of wanting to be saved and have been fiercely independent. That doesn't mean that I have not been a victim waiting to happen though.

I do think it is possible to start making those subtle shifts and have done so for myself often more recently.

There are a million different ways of presenting victim, perpetrator and rescuer behaviour and these are just a small same of them.

Jumping between victim and perpetrator is a classic dynamic.

They were also not saying , "you SHOULD listen to someone for 20 mins" for couching and were rather just giving an example of setting a boundary. There would of course be a hundred different other possible factors involved.

Soooo frustrating to type on this phone but maybe that puts across the gist of it.

 

[Venusian]

I like to think of the triangle as an exercise in perception. So often we are backed into a corner and held there by our belief system. By learning this theory I can better understand the interactions between myself and another person, either in an antagonistic role, my persecutor or someone who puts themselves in a rescuer role or who I want to put into a rescuer role.

I am a person who always had to look after myself. It is hard to think of myself in other roles but when I really think about it they are there. There are the beliefs that I have had all my life that keep me in roles that are unhealthy but by shifting my perceptions I will be able to make different choices, healthier choices, at least that is what I hope learning this will help with. By recognizing when I am becoming trapped in these dynamic, that is a huge step in breaking out of them.

 

[Eleanor]

Hashi, you may not "play" this particular game. The point of it is (I think) to describe the dynamic that leads to a great deal of interpersonal "drama." When "in" the triangle a person sees ONLY these three roles. The dramatic "play" is about interacting between roles and moving through them. It doesn't, however, GET you anyplace. So these roles are all dead ends (in the context of the game.) If one is trapped in this game, it is possible to get out from any of the positions (the kinds of things said are illustrative, not suggestions I think.) The point is to stop "playing" the game and getting sucked into the perceptual scheme of the system. This is helpful to me because the roles shift around a lot with my H and me. One second he wants me to "rescue" him, the next minute he accused me of being his enemy. Crazymaking. Oh, and that combined with instability of which role I think I am makes the whole thing a total chaotic mess.

Like the movie says, "Some games, the only way to win is not to play." This is such a game.

 

[Hashi]

There are a million different ways of presenting victim, perpetrator and rescuer behaviour and these are just a small same of them.

I can't really agree. I see these as universal characteristics with many individual variations, I think it should be possible to summarise the universal aspects of each in a few bullet points.

Many similar behaviours to the unhealthy ones are healthy and it is often the motivation and management of boundaries that makes the difference.

Thinking about what you say, I think the way it's presented is with a focus on boundaries, so for someone whose perspective is about boundaries making healthier behaviour that's probably fine. I'm guessing the labels (coach etc) are used to help people have some sort of hook for the change that shifting boundaries make. But to someone like me whose reference point is roles, I think the labels for the positive alternatives are so imprecise they're actually unhelpful. From my perspective, two different roles aren't essentially points on the same scale which you move between by working on boundaries - by definition they can't possibly be.

I also do think there's a bias towards rescuer-victim rather than persecutor-victim. I do play out the persecutor-victim, but this doesn't address that for me. I'm certain there's little rescuer stuff in my life, either being one or seeking one.

So on both counts this isn't useful to me, but I can see that it could be to others.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I'm unconvinced about the move to the "positive sides" (persecutor to challenger etc). I thought the idea was to get out of the triangle altogether.

I agree with this. To do this, it seems to go alongside the idea of taking each moment as it comes.

So in therapy I have to accept that I have been a victim of crime/abuse. It is healthy to cry tears and say I didn't want that to happen to me and it wasn't my fault. So in the moment of trauma, I was a victim. But right now, I am not in that situation, so I am not a victim.

When people see who they are as being a victim, then the way they perceive new situations will have a bias towards them being the victim again and again, and others are catagorised as people expected to help the victim, or people who don't care or are out to hurt 'the victim'. In reality the victim can create unrealistic expectations, and can justify their own unpleasant behavior with the feeling that the other deserves it, because the other is viewed as the bad guy..

With savior behaviors, it might be that a colleague is under a lot of stress, and they need some support. In that moment, I can let them cry on my shoulder, listen to their problems or offer some advice to help them solve the problem. But I look at them as the owner of that problem, and when the problem isn't bothering them,, I see them as the happy, confident, fun person they are being in that moment. .

When people see who they are as being the savior, then the way they perceive new situations will have a bias towards them being in the savior role. So they will catagorise others as victims or perpetrators. But in that view, when a person has shared a problematic time, and is getting stronger and moving on from their difficulties, in the eyes of the saviour, they go from being victim to bad guy. And the saviour feels justified in their aggressive criticisms of the other.

The healthy way to accept that I can be the bad guy, is to accept that I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, get things wrong, and react in an unhealthy way. But with that acceptance comes a natural progression towards looking for a way to correct those mistakes and learn how to react in a more healthy way.

But when a person carries lots of shame and guilt, they can be too willing to accept that they are the bad guy and feel they are to blame for everybody else's feelings and actions. But when you feel this way, it feels wrong or uncomfortable to have people be nice. So it attracts people who want somebody to blame, or the self-sabateur will behave badly so that the other has something to blame them for.

So the static view of oneself as being the victim, the savior or the bad guy, can become the self-justification for aggression, manipulation, bullying, abuse, and it effects the self and others.

The behaviors are symptoms of a self-image problem. So it's making ourselves aware of the self-image, that enables a more lasting change.