General Trauma Work & Skills You Learn - Sufferers, Please Respond

[MandyLou]

@Cashew - I said "apathy", because I have communicated my feelings to him in the past and he didn't seem to emotionally relate as to why I would feel crushed after he ignored my texts and calls for weeks. To him, he just retreats and that's just normal and he doesn't have to reach out. The problem is, he has never had anyone he could connect on an emotional level and he's not that kind of guy for the most part. I don't understand if his inability to relate to my feelings has anything to do with his PTSD. I think that in part it does, but I also don't want to use PTSD as a reason to justify his inability to relate with me in some significant ways.

 

[Abstract]

Hi @MandyLou Assuming that he truly doesn't understand why you are upset by distancing behaviour. lack of showing care. and no communication (rather than him caring but nor being able to communicate that):
I think a few things could cause it. 1.Sometimes, in life. people who are in very intense pain get so caught up in their own experience they loose touch with others perspective. They become self fixated as a survival method. 2. Some people haven't had any experience of emotional closeness and haven't practiced thinking of others. They don't yet know how. 3. And some people have low empathy abilities. Those with PTSD, like anyone without it, vary a lot when it comes to empathy levels. For example: there are quite a lot of people with PTSD who have over developed empathy levels. All these relate to the general population and not just PTSD.

If he truly doesn't get it and its 1. then you should be able to discuss this and create a more balanced relationship. He may still need to isolate but your feelings should be understood and validated. If it's 2. then it could potentially change. You would probably have to be very patient and work at it. If its 3. then I think it can be tricky and there are other implications. It doesn't mean you can't have a good relationship. You might have to be realistic about how much he can understand you and may have to spell things out very clearly (I've heard this is the best way to communicate feelings with someone with low empathy [unless they are sociapathis of course]). Nuances and hints or subtlety probably won't work.

Ways to tell if its these issues rather than him just being in shutdown:
If the thinking and behavior only happens when he is in shutdown then its likely about flight and fight and working on PTSD skills is the answer. And communication and compromise between you.
If his feelings about this and his general personality traits remain consistently headed in this direction then it may well be one of the above factors. The trouble for you is if he is finding it hard to speak about this then it may be hard to differentiate and get that info from him. I personally would watch how he is when he is at his least symptomatic.

Me? I have a history of feeling way more for others than I do for myself. I'm not proud of that as it wasn't healthy. In those states I am unable to say anything and let people down badly but I feel terrible about it. Normally what used to ensue was a period of terrible self hatred, self harm etc which didn't help anyone. I am more balanced these days and care more evenly for others and myself. My point is that it probably would look very much the same from the outside which doesn't help you in your day to day life. But if you want to figure out who he is as a person and at least be validated by him then look for information outside the isolation itself. Regardless you may feel it is all too ,much for you and that would be valid.

PS. there are always PTSD symptoms present of course and speaking about personal things tends to be hard for a lot of us so what I meant was to look at more general behaviour to you and others. If he can't discuss this directly with you.

 

[MandyLou]

@Abstract - thank you for such a detailed response. I think is man is not inherently empathetic, he's are not able to feel others' emotions or relate to them. I think there is some sociopath-like quality to it. Just because I have seen him say or do something doesn't make them empathetic. The closer you get someone in a relationship, the harder it gets for them to hide who they really are no matter how hide they're trying to present themselves as someone they're not.

Even those who have limited ability to feel anything will learn to do so because they have observed people around them and have learned on an intellectual level as as to what should be/appropriate to express in a given moment/situation. It's almost like an expectation to be able to socially relate to others. It can be easier to be that way as a man as men are not typically expected to express their emotions. If you're an isolated person, then it just becomes easy to retreat into yourself and nobody knows what you feel if you feel anything at all.

We're not currently communicating, so there is no way for me to know the answers to any of my questions, but I believe that many of my observation about his behavior are valid. He has spent his life never grieving through loss and closing himself off emotionally to painful experiences. You become a numb hard stone if you have no ability to feel or process your emotions, and therefore, you turn cold to others and their experiences as well.

 

[Ronin]

I think is man is not inherently empathetic, he's are not able to feel others' emotions or relate to them. I think there is some sociopath-like quality to it.

I'd stay away from these kinds of judgments if I were you.

Because they're wrong about what sociopathy is and how it manifests, and because they're particularly f*cking harmful assumptions about people whose lives involve violence & protection of others against it as in a way vets experience.

You're not qualified to make these judgments so be so kind and don't throw them around.

Edited to add: He doesn't show care in the way you want him to, without your bothering to expand your understanding even when you have a handful of people saying that expansion is possible, so you deem him to be a 'sociopath'? That's rather selfish of you.

Bother to educate yourself before judging.
What you THINK about empathy & learning and consider 'facts' and 'generally applicable', are nothing but your misconceptions.

 

[Abstract]

Hi,

Empathy is an interesting topic and quite involved. Cognitive empathy (otherwise known as theory of mind) is about conceptually being able to put oneself into the others shoes. Figuring out peoples feelings and responses. It is partly about experience and partly about role playing and being able to figure it out cognitively. Then there is emotional empathy which is when we feel what the other person feels. An example of what it isn't is feeling pain for someone because we think they are afraid when actually they are not. In that case its us projecting onto others. People have all sorts of variations when it comes to levels of these.

When I am in shutdown, am experiencing emotional numbing, or am dissociated in certain ways I don't seem to have access to my usual emotional empathy at all. I sometimes feel literally dead. Or like a robot. I still have my values and my cognitive empathy. That is one aspect of this for me. The other part is being able to say I care for someone or being able to reach out to them when I am in shutdown. It doesn't seem to matter how much I care about the other person and how ashamed or worried I am about them. I still find myself totally unable to reach out. I don't think I expressed that very well before. This isn't about me and I just wanted to use myself as an example. Someone seeing me from the outside could very much misunderstand what my thoughts feelings or intentions are. I am greatly conflicted about emotional intimacy and it causes me great distress and shame. Makes me feel like a dangerous poisonous defective thing. Again sharing just for info purposes. I know I am not alone and see many others discussing these feelings.

I obviously have no idea what your guy is like or what is happening for him. I will say I think it would be pretty hard for someone sociopathic to get PTSD.Low emotion levels and activity and low emotional empathy. I am far from expert but it seems to me combat sufferers are often traumatised because of seeing others harmed or doing something they are conflicted about. It could just be threat/harm to self of course.

Anyway. I feel I am speaking in circles and I'm finding this to hard to discuss but wanted to be clear that one would have to really think about these things very carefully, check in with the person if possible and look at a wide range of circumstances before making judgments on empathy. Especially extreme ones like that. Maybe you have done that already. I don't know. I do know that trauma can mess with a lot of stuff and make things look like what they are not. And that it affects a wide range of very different people.

 

[MandyLou]

@Abstract , thank you!

I am trying to be careful how I phrase my wording and what I communicate. Keep in mind that this is a person I care about, however, certain reactions to things and behavioral facts that I have seen have been quite unnerving and I should be wise being careful because when you care about someone you tend to overlook certain truths about them and just ignore until it's too late and you are way too invested in the relationship.

I should have never been invested in this relationship because there were major things in this person that I had not seen and were total revelation to me. I didn't know that he could just turn so cold so fast towards me. Not towards other people, but ME. There were times I recall he would try to show affection, and there were times he would look at me and push me away like I'm sone kind of a monster. He would stand before me like a brick wall and just stare at me if I cried in his presence. This wasn't a person who was uncomfortable, this was a person who had mo idea how to relate and he verbalized that. He said that he freaks out when people cry and he doesn't know how and why they cry.

 

[seedling]

like a brick wall

that he freaks out

Here's the dichotomy. He's freaking out and while he's doing it he looks like a brick wall to you.

He may not know how and why people cry but he's not an indifferent bystander with an attitude of curiosity. He's deeply affected by seeing someone cry (by his own admission) and, it seems to me, that he is doing his utmost to keep control of his freak out. His energy may be absorbed inwardly by his distress. Not much left to spend on yours.

I guess the real bottom line, and I'm sure you are aware of this, is whether you want to continue a relationship with him.

 

[MandyLou]

@seedling , no I don't think it's a matter of whether or not I want a relationship with him, it's a matter of... should I be waiting hopelessly for someone for another 4-5 months for dropping me for absolutely no reason while he communicates and contacts everyone else in his life. I'm sure you're guessing what the answer is. Sometimes it's overwhelmingly obvious when someone just doesn't care about you, and that just has nothing to do with PTSD. There are lots of folks with PTSD who still try very hard to work on their relationships and show their significant other that they matter... that they exist. If simple things of care don't exist, then there is no reason to hold on to anything. Sad, but true.

 

[Friday]

@FridayJones - wow, I'm rather encouraged to know that you feel so accountable towa...

Unfortunately... Most that interpretation is backwards / as in, the other way around, or has simply no relationship whatsoever. Most basically, responsible for, not accountable to.

There are lots of folks with PTSD who still try very hard to work on their relationships and show their significant other that they matter... that they exist. If simple things of care don't exist, then there is no reason to hold on to anything.

Very much agreed. I have almost exclusively dated blokes with PTSD, which has the very useful side effect of taking PTSD off the table. That isolation happens, no longer matters if everyone you date isolates, what matters is how a person isolates. Ditto every other symptom or expression of a symptom. What matters isn't the symptom, what matters is how they do it ... Because that determines how I feel about having that in my life / how I'm affected by it.

I don't cut any kind of slack for PTSD. Period. Either the person is someone I want in my life as is, or not. I don't personally find PTSD symptoms and expressions any different from every other aspect about someone. Can this work in my life? Am I okay with it? Yes/maybe/no. Doesn't matter if I think ABC is simple/easy if it's hugely difficult to them so it rarely happens, or if it's something they don't want in their lives. If I want ABC in my life? I need to be with someone else.

 

[MandyLou]

@FridayJones - like I said... why should I be waiting hopelessly for someone for another 4-5 months for dropping me for absolutely no reason while he communicates and contacts everyone else in his life but me? This person is purposefully ignoring me while there are others in his life that he wants to be with. I will never understand (but I wish that I could) the reasons as why he just dropped me like that when all I ever did is to only give him space, time as he needs, communicate that he is cared for and loved when appropriate and when he'd allow, and I'm being just pushed away and shut down more and more while he talks to and communicated everyone but me.

 

[Deleted member 32731]

Well, I think as many others likely do here, that when you go into therapy you have to work through your feelings and trauma. During this, you (I'm assuming, it's how it is with my therapist) eventually tell detail of the event. This takes a while to work through for some and you're faced with all the emotion. Sorry, I basically said the same thing in each sentence, haha.

What supporters should know, is just because you're taking alone time and 'ignoring' them, it doesn't mean that theyre resented. (Depending on who it is, if it's your husband, then this applies (or someone else you're close with). People need their alone time , especially when they're going through something hard like this. Take me for example, I'm an independent person....it's so hard to ask for help. You all know your reasons for sometimes not talking to someone close for a while..... Okay lol, long story short, sometimes it's uncomfortable to be in contact during a hard time and someone needs to take time to themselves. Basically, they should understand they're not resented, ignored, disliked or hated.

 

[anthony]

others in his life that he wants to be with. I will never understand (but I wish that I could) the reasons as why he just dropped me like that when all I ever did is to only give him space, time as he needs, communicate that he is cared for and loved when appropriate and when he'd allow

The problem is that sufferers associate guilt with trauma, and if riddled with it, they quickly associate guilt with the suffering they know they're putting upon their spouse. Worse, when PTSD was not present when the relationship began, chances are guilt will be doing its job. Basically, sufferers use any excuse they can to at the end of the day, push you away because they love you enough to feel guilty for the suffering you're enduring, because of them. The problem is that we don't understand the further suffering we put spouses under when doing this, making it ten fold worse.

PTSD is complicated, no doubt about it. We can have relationships that mean little or less to us, but when we begin to feel committed, we may then do the same thing. The flip side is that we can enter a new relationship and the person knows we have PTSD, and then not feel guilty about the suffering projected.

PTSD messes with everyones head, not just the sufferer, but the spouse, families, friends, children...