Other Trying to understand "lack of empathy"

[lostforgottensoul]

Why, though?

I guess I should say that I couldn't seem to wrap my head around it. Took a better part of 6 months of therapy to bounce it around and came to the conclusion that I really can't understand the getting pleasure from another's pain. My therapist said that's because I'm not a psycopath. I can understand the science and the definitions. I just can't wrap my head around the idea though. Of how another can get pleasure from someone in pain.

Maybe I'm not making sense as I am saying I understand it up to a point. I understand the defintions and the science. I don't feel it. I can't understand in that way which means I can't fully wrap my brain around it. To me anyway.

I often wonder how therapists understand and treat these sorts of people. The therapist has empathy. But they fully understand and treat those that don't. I don't know how one fully wraps their head around it. Not from lack of trying though.

 

[Abstract]

I don't think that truly sadistic behaviour is possible to fully empathise with if one isn't that way inclined. No matter how empathic. Too far away from "usual" behaviour.

 

[Ronin]

Ah, different things.

I am mentally on lack of *empathy*.
Not on sadism. Or the ugly juju of the same bag.

Very different things, in my head. And not connected by default.

 

[mumstheword]

I understand from the point of view of raising a child with impulses and inclinations and preoccupations along those lines. A child who's genetics absolutely plays a significant part, because, after 20 years of being with a man that displays no empathy, I have finally gotten my head around aspects of it, and that man is his father.

Somebody, like my child, is like a form of autistic, in that their brain and hormone system, truly, works in a different way to those who are inclined towards care-giving and seeing and feeling other's as another yourself.

Without a lot of self-affirming attention, honest and deep communication, kind and fair treatment, I would have ended up with a violent and anti-social young man, because his internal guage was set to aggression and insecurity, after witnessing the violence towards me, from his father and having a extremely ill worn down and traumatized mother.

But, even with a brain set with characteristics that (could) make up a psychopathic and sadism-focused brain/mind, my son is being raised with a considered and secure framework and responds in kind.

No doubt he is endowed with the "warrior gene" identified by neuroscientist James Fallon, in his book "The psychopath Inside; A neuroscientist's personal journey into the dark side of the brain".

I believe, all these "psychopathic" qualities can be utilised for positive purposes, though, with positive role-modeling and firm boundaries and adequate love and care given, if given early enough,.

Although these kinds of people may need to understand "love" from a different angle than neurotypical-empathetic people. My son asked me what it was, said he didn't understand it at all and didn't feel it. I said it's a very vast idea, like "freedom" and it means different things to different people but that perhaps he could start with the idea of being grateful and appreciative for having people, in his life, who provide for his needs and keep him safe. That seemed to satisfy him and now he frequently tells me he loves me, or that he appreciates me.

He says he doesn't feel empathy, that he has to fake being social, but that he wants to cultivate "Charisma" so he's working on behaving in a way that engenders popularity. It's all pretty calculated, but that is how he has to work at "being social" He says he enjoys causing other's pain but knows that it's wrong and so he constantly inhibits those urges. But he says "Mum, I'm not a nice person." He doesn't like being around people, much at all, although, he's ok with me, my partner, and a couple of friends and teachers. I give him a lot of personal space. He's always been pretty focused on very dark, gruesome things and, yes, it's disturbing but he can talk to me and we have a lot of humourous banter and in depth conversations.

How people are raised, has a lot to do with it, but the neural-endocrine system also has a significan role to play in shaping narcissistic or psycho/sociapathic type people.

A couple of years ago, I got pregnant, and was deeply concerned and ambivalent about the thought of having a baby and having a son with these tendencies and thought "there is no way I could EVER leave them unattended, but now my son has matured, considerably and although I miscarried, I am no longer geeling fearful at the idea of him being around small children.

He also told me he killed a cat, or a kitten once, when he was very young, but since then he has developed a moral code, that is "Don't be a dick" and "Don't hurt anything or anyone weaker or dumber than yourself, especially animals."

I don't think he has any.kind of full blown psychopath brain, because I have seen him show remorse, guilt and shame over things, especially the cat killing, but, he seems to.have been born with a hyper aggressive temperament, a high IQ and maybe a mild form of Aspergers (?), a type that displays an aptitude for manipulation (he stopped this, by and large, because we wouldn't stand for it) and a low pleasure threshold from the bulk of social engagement, also high levels of boredom because of his disdain for much social engagement. He also has a very deadpan "flat" presentation that can feel quite cold and intense. Other times he is animated and just like any other child his age.

 

[Ronin]

Am I the only one who reads lines like "these people" and discovers a new depth of eyerolling?

And poor autistic boy, being taken as a psychopath, with his negative self talk and anxiety and insecurity and having been exposed to domestic violence taken as something entirely else, instead of proper explained as what they are without the labeling.

Like that helps not being confused about the world, at large.

Abused children acting out their distress need to learn to not act out in ways that involve murder of anything nor abuse of it, but that does not make them mini killer. Nor a mini killer who is just better about things here and there. It makes them abused and badly distressed children.

 

[Abstract]

Mums. Manipulation isn't an autistic spectrum issue nor is desire to harm or lack of care. At all. The spectrum is rather about cognitive empathy. Being able to cognitively work out what others will feel or think. Not about not caring about others, feeling towards them, and certainly not about the desire to inflict harm. Its more of a social cues issue. If there was harm related to these things it would be without knowing it. It sounds like you have done an enormous amount to support your son lovingly and it must be challenging at times.

Ronin, if I am understanding what you are saying, I don't think its unkind to directly discuss with people what they are really feeling and expressing. There are people who are on the sociapathic spectrum and I have had conversations with people online before where they have been deeply relieved that someone is willing to listen and accept what they are feeling and expressing rather telling them that they really are just misunderstood. Trauma or no trauma. I used to do that before. Because I could not get my head around someone wanting to harm others and enjoy it. There is no help for someone if we ignore what they are saying or refuse to hear them. I used to view what people said through my own trauma or home situation. I think its OK to show care for people, accept who they say they are and give them input about what is and isn't socially OK. It doesn't mean there is judgement. It doesn't mean they can't work on change. I do have a big big problem with these things being lumped in with the autistic spectrum. This isn't autism and its so sad it was linked from the start in this thread. JMO.

Thinking it is anxiety and insecurity in that context is probably just projecting what we would be experiencing onto the other person. If they are expressing the desire to harm others, no compassion, no reactions.

 

[Ronin]

If they are expressing the desire to harm others, no compassion, no reactions.

Desire to harm others can come from many sources.
Included meltdowns that are anxiety based, emotional and sensory overload based.
Ditto rages, uncontrolled in childhood or badly controlled in childhood, because they are children, not adults, their brains do not work on that age and maturity level.

Shock and long term deprivation? Can totally come across as No compassion, no reaction.

And so on.
What I am saying here being an abused kid is damned hard for emotional regulation, alone.
Add being autistic abused kid? Different level of hell.
The last thing such a kid needs is being mislabeled with a personality disorder they do not have, one very misunderstood, misrepresented, and evilified a disorder.

For issues that can stem from something entirely else, like abuse from one carer, and grave if well meant misunderstanding from another one.

 

[mumstheword]

Desire to harm others can come from many sources.
Included meltdowns that are anxiety based, emotional and sensory overload based.
Ditto rages, uncontrolled in childhood or badly controlled in childhood, because they are children, not adults, their brains do not work on that age and maturity level.

Shock and long term deprivation? Can totally come across as No compassion, no reaction.

And so on.
What I am saying here being an abused kid is damned hard for emotional regulation, alone.
Add being autistic abused kid? Different level of hell.
The last thing such a kid needs is being mislabeled with a personality disorder they do not have, one very misunderstood, misrepresented, and evilified a disorder.

For issues that can stem from something entirely else, like abuse from one carer, and grave if well meant misunderstanding from another one.

Jumping to a lot of reactive, erronous conclusions about what I've tried to communicate.
Maybe my bad, because what I've said is so presumptuously "corrected" and misconstrued. You don't know my situation, my child, and no, he hasn't had any formal diagnosis. I'm keeping him well away from that until I can be sure a therapist or other profession will be constructively helpful and not the opposite. Judge away, that's your emotional reactiveness talking, and not based on a very personally informed perspective (about my life, my child and my experience(s)) .

I'm talking about someone who themselves thinks they have a psychopathic brain and says they don't feel empathy. That communicates that they enjoy causing other's pain but they have learnt not to, because I taught them it was wrong, with love. Someone that I have a, very, no, exceedingly, positive relationship with. No he's not autistic, but possibly sits on a spectrum, somewhere, as there is Aspergers and Autism in the family. I do have an autistic child also, they are very different. And no, he's not experienced abuse, neglect yes, his father is very narcissist, and yes, he was witness to some abuse toward me as a very young child before I left.

That's my point, abuse and neglect seem to be consistently present, along with neural tendencies, in regards to this cluster of personality disorders and no my child ISN'T and wouldn't and, if I have anything to do with it, WILL NEVER be diagnosable with one, but he does exhibit tendencies that have had to be monitored and managed, very closely and rigourously .

If you want to get self righteous and emotionally reactive, rather than examining from a more objective analysis, that's your prerogative. But you are jumping to a lot of strawman arguments and "more knowledgeable than you," condescending reactivity, to my mind. Why not ask more questions rather than ridicule me and talk down to me?

I have told my child "you don't have anti-social personality disorder" as well as "We can't know if you have a psychopath brain, we would have to get a brain scan for that". And I contest that he feels no empathy, but he is the one generating this argument.

I know in my heart that I need to parent him closely and not get complacent and that he struggles with desires towards anti social behaviours, but he says "Mum, I won't become a psychopath, I just think I have a psychopath brain (which we can't know without testing) but you taught me morals, so I won't become one ".

I'm just communicating the views that have arisen from my own life, in an attempt to encourage people to see that with cultural and familial grounding, even very aggressive children can be raised to curb their aggressive impulses.

I've had 7 children, they are all very different, most are vegans, feminists, environmentals and in touch with more than simply materialistic values. One of my boys is studying to be a hairdresser, one is in festival set up, my daughter is a fashion designer who is into environmental ethics, fair trade and veganism in a big way, and all of them suffered way more trauma and upheaval than my youngest son, the one in question, so no, it's not just a matter of "abuse" autism" or anything that you are assuming. This is a person's struggle with violent impulses and self expressed urges to be sadistic, but he is amazingly self aware and I've raised him to be honest and secure, so he's learnt to continually negate his natural inclinations and urges, albeit, conversely, unlike the people who don't get parented soundly and conscientiously and who do suffer profoundly damaging trauma, abuse and neglect, who do end up hurting others and acting in a way that exhibits no empathy.

And yes, I've experienced plenty of that, so I know about that, first hand.

This isn't merely speculative theorizing, it's lived.

 

[mumstheword]

Mums. Manipulation isn't an autistic spectrum issue nor is desire to harm or lack of care. At all. The spectrum is rather about cognitive empathy. Being able to cognitively work out what others will feel or think. Not about not caring about others, feeling towards them, and certainly not about the desire to inflict harm. Its more of a social cues issue. If there was harm related to these things it would be without knowing it. It sounds like you have done an enormous amount to support your son lovingly and it must be challenging at times.

Ronin, if I am understanding what you are saying, I don't think its unkind to directly discuss with people what they are really feeling and expressing. There are people who are on the sociapathic spectrum and I have had conversations with people online before where they have been deeply relieved that someone is willing to listen and accept what they are feeling and expressing rather telling them that they really are just misunderstood. Trauma or no trauma. I used to do that before. Because I could not get my head around someone wanting to harm others and enjoy it. There is no help for someone if we ignore what they are saying or refuse to hear them. I used to view what people said through my own trauma or home situation. I think its OK to show care for people, accept who they say they are and give them input about what is and isn't socially OK. It doesn't mean there is judgement. It doesn't mean they can't work on change. I do have a big big problem with these things being lumped in with the autistic spectrum. This isn't autism and its so sad it was linked from the start in this thread. JMO.

Thinking it is anxiety and insecurity in that context is probably just projecting what we would be experiencing onto the other person. If they are expressing the desire to harm others, no compassion, no reactions.

I know manipulation isn't a spectrum characteristic @Abstract, my Dad is very Aspie and he's very socially clumsy and inept, so it's like the opposite of manipulative, it's more "without guile". My son is very not like that. My dad, clearly has empathy, oodles of it, but he gets overwhelmed, easily, so isn't all that good at showing it. My son is often disdainful of being social, my dad wishes he were more socially able and not so prone to overwhelm and dissociation.
I have an actual autistic son, too, he's not high functioning, like those on the Aspergers side of the spectrum like my dad, he has cognitive impairment and developmental delays. He's also socially challenged and although he can mischievous for attention, he couldn't manipulate his way out of a paper bag. He needs outside advocacy, because he's intellectually impaired and could and has been, easily taken advantage of.

My youngest son tells me he "mimics" social grace (not his phrase, but that was the sentiment), that's not something people on the spectrum do, generally speaking; although Tony Attwood, the Australian Aspergers expert, says that there are a group of individuals, on the spectrum, who can cover their social lacks via faking it and putting on a persona of social ease, although they do not feel it, so I don't know .
I haven't had any tests done or found anyone I feel confident in. I took my older Autistic son (he's 26) to the so-called local ASD specialist, and I wasn't impressed, so I'm yet to find anyone specialised enough to get anywhere near my youngest son. I live in a rural/regional area of a sparsely populated country so, I'm not too confident in finding someone helpful, in my area.
I know I need some support with my kid, but also that I need to tread very carefully, because I want approaches that help, I can't afford to enlist inept professionals that could make things worse.

 

[Friday]

@mumstheword ... you might be interested to know that part of the reason psychopathy cannot be diagnosed in children is because the symptoms -including zero or blunted empathy- is a normal developmental phase that all (most, to the point it’s considered a developmental milestone, just like sitting up and rolling over for infants) children go through a couple times in their development. 10-12 is one of those time periods. And also what makes child-gangs in that age group maybe the scariest f*cking thing on the planet

Your son is exactly right, the only thing that keeps presdolescents from skinnin people alive just to see what happens is parental guidance / adult oversight. The age group is about to hit an independent phase where they question all the rules handed to them (teenagers) but at 10/12 almost universally still take on group conscience in lieu of their own. So they follow the rules. Whether that’s brush your teeth and off to school, or don’t rat, or shoot anyone who tries to go anywhere. Gangs and soldiers both target this age group for damn good reason. Empathy is at a lifetime low, but loyalty? You won’t find anyone more loyal than a 10yo who loves you.

Empathy really shows itself in action - in expression.

You know... that matter of perspective? About how things are judged by action, which requires the perspective of the onlooker? Is huge.

I am bizarrely known, in a few different circles, to have the patience of a saint. (Snort. Saint Friday, isn’t that a laugh?) Reality is? I have virtually no patience to speak of. None! Zip zero nada zilch. Seriously impatient, with mad impulse control issues, to boot. But? I also don’t believe it’s cool for me to take that out on other people. So I don’t. (Also, I’m incrediably lazy. I want a job done, and done right, the first time. I don’t want to make more work for myself by rushing something that needs a delicate touch. That just means having to do the whole thing all over again, except this time starting off with a major disadvantage. Anything worth doing? Is worth doing right. Half assed can kiss mine). So I garner this bizarre reputation of possessing something -in spades- I reeeeeeally don’t have, at all. It’s not patience that people are seeing. It’s self control.

Back to perspective & empathy.

@Sophy, some of the biggest hearted, kindest, most empathetic people I’ve ever known? Will look you cold in the eye before they shoot you. From my perspective? These are some of the biggest hearted, kindest, most empathetic people I’ve ever known...again... but I’m pretty sure that the person begging for their life? Didn’t think so.

Conversely? One of the reasons BBCs Sherlock cracks me up so hard is that I’ve known people like (how they’ve chosen to portray) him, and I’ve been the John Watson running interference between them & the rest of the world.

I am NOT saying your abuser had empathy you simply didn’t see. I am saying that just because HE didn’t have empathy, it doesn’t follow that every 10yo, every soldier, every autistic kid/adult, every other person with that trait possesses all the other traits -his personality, his choices- that made this one aspect of his so profoundly horrifying for you.

 

[mumstheword]

@mumstheword ... you might be interested to know that part of the reason psychopathy cannot be diagnosed in children is because the symptoms -including zero or blunted empathy- is a normal developmental phase that all (most, to the point it’s considered a developmental milestone, just like sitting up and rolling over for infants) children go through a couple times in their development. 10-12 is one of those time periods. And also what makes child-gangs in that age group maybe the scariest f*cking thing on the planet

Your son is exactly right, the only thing that keeps presdolescents from skinnin people alive just to see what happens is parental guidance / adult oversight. The age group is about to hit an independent phase where they question all the rules handed to them (teenagers) but at 10/12 almost universally still take on group conscience in lieu of their own. So they follow the rules. Whether that’s brush your teeth and off to school, or don’t rat, or shoot anyone who tries to go anywhere. Gangs and soldiers both target this age group for damn good reason. Empathy is at a lifetime low, but loyalty? You won’t find anyone more loyal than a 10yo who loves you.



You know... that matter of perspective? About how things are judged by action, which requires the perspective of the onlooker? Is huge.

I am bizarrely known, in a few different circles, to have the patience of a saint. (Snort. Saint Friday, isn’t that a laugh?) Reality is? I have virtually no patience to speak of. None! Zip zero nada zilch. Seriously impatient, with mad impulse control issues, to boot. But? I also don’t believe it’s cool for me to take that out on other people. So I don’t. (Also, I’m incrediably lazy. I want a job done, and done right, the first time. I don’t want to make more work for myself by rushing something that needs a delicate touch. That just means having to do the whole thing all over again, except this time starting off with a major disadvantage. Anything worth doing? Is worth doing right. Half assed can kiss mine). So I garner this bizarre reputation of possessing something -in spades- I reeeeeeally don’t have, at all. It’s not patience that people are seeing. It’s self control.

Back to perspective & empathy.

@Sophy, some of the biggest hearted, kindest, most empathetic people I’ve ever known? Will look you cold in the eye before they shoot you. From my perspective? These are some of the biggest hearted, kindest, most empathetic people I’ve ever known...again... but I’m pretty sure that the person begging for their life? Didn’t think so.

Conversely? One of the reasons BBCs Sherlock cracks me up so hard is that I’ve known people like (how they’ve chosen to portray) him, and I’ve been the John Watson running interference between them & the rest of the world.

I am NOT saying your abuser had empathy you simply didn’t see. I am saying that just because HE didn’t have empathy, it doesn’t follow that every 10yo, every soldier, every autistic kid/adult, every other person with that trait possesses all the other traits -his personality, his choices- that made this one aspect of his so profoundly horrifying for you.

I do think you are absolutely on mark, @Friday and that is comforting to have you say that. I think my kid will be fine, despite his preoccupation with dark and violent fantasies and deadpan, sardonic countenance.
I did say to him, "maybe you like to think you have a psychopathic brain because you think it's a bit glamorous and exciting to think that" and he agreed that that could be right.
In any case, I'm 99 % sure that he won't develop into having a personality disorder as, since, his dad and I separated, I've worked really consistently to provide loving but firm boundaries and a stable family foundation, with my new partner. He is loved and he knows it.

 

[Ronin]

Jumping to a lot of reactive, erronous conclusions about what I've tried to communicate.

I am not, nor anything else, there.

I was literally just reacting to what you wrote, and the misconceptions contained in that, and a different reading on that situation. That personalizing and assuming things of emotional state, and a need to get on defensive, instead of talk about the topic (psychopathy or not in kids, from a number of traits) was not mine.

Look, my post was not Mumstheword is a Bad Mom, someone take that kid away for their well being, quickly.
It was I think there may be something else going on *for that child*, whether they are autistic or anything else (FYI, on the spectrum *is still autistic*, just a different type / manifestation, that comment of He is not autistic, just on the spectrum, literally makes very little sense in my head, category wise.).

I was not aware that *simply discussing a topic* and differentiating things is an issue.

But it seems you have lesser issue taking points very similar to mine from Friday, than me, so well.