Weird therapy session regarding suicidal thoughts

[Applecore]

Therapist replied and said yes we can try other modalities like EMDR.

I replied saying that I'd also like to look at the spiritual level. I think at midlife I'm going through that long dark night of the soul thing... And maybe the intense feelings of not wanting to be alive anymore are in part a metaphor for "part of me" needing/ wanting to die? Some kind of spiritual ego-death thing, of stuff that I need to leave behind. Things that belong in the first half of life but are utterly a burden in the second half of life, and that I need to let go, even if it's really painful?

EMDR is an excellent development. Evidently you were right to speak up, and that brought a result.

Separately, I would like to repeat what I have said to you on another thread: I have found your comments on this forum tremendously helpful, not just emotionally but also very practically. It was your advice to seek support groups, I followed your advice and it worked. As said, this has changed my life for the better and it might even have saved my friend's life. I am extremely grateful to you.

 

[Ecdysis]

Hey @Applecore it's all good

I'll reply to this later

 

[user27357]

this T sounds like a pragmatist, not unlike myself. send me his numbers please :)

his ho hum responses (as opposed to OMG you have to go inpatient) maybe keep everyone in the room less than emotionally charged? Maybe that's the work environment best suited to making life a nd death decisions like deciding to live or die? Just me thinking out loud here on my keyboard a million miles from the room.

I recently ran into a call line emergency contact therapist provided by my EAP that wouldn't hear me say I wasn't going to act, just aware that the thoughts were welling up large that day (with cause) but wouldn't un hear that I knew what worked from years of seeing the aftermath of many suicides while working a s a first responder. Not going to act! I screamed. But you have a plan! she yelled. She was going to send the sheriff my way to confiscate the very very common items I know will guarantee a successful termination. Luckily he called first and was satisfied we had both run across the same over the top on line therapist and that I was fine and she was maybe just a tad overwrought and that I could keep my #88888 and 999 222 66666* yet another day. (She called the sheriff? But not worthy of immediate response, call first on a suicide? What was that conversation like?)

Point is: Calm is good. Overwrought is bad. Ho hum good. OMG bad.

best of luck to you, we both are able to seek help and talk about the reality of suicidal thoughts . Just that alone will help us live long lives of healing. Hope, again. hoo boy.

 

[beaneeboo]

It’s a difficult conversation to negotiate and get right. It’s near impossible to say the ‘right’ thing. Certainly for me, there was never a ‘good’ response. And I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of different Ts about suicidality over the years.

Ultimately, what he’s said is an acknowledgment of the reality. And I’ve had a couple of Ts give me something similar as their response. “No one can actually stop you”. Which is the reality of the situation.

The one helpful thing about acknowledging that, which was my take-away (usually with the benefit of hindsight) is: okay, so it’s ultimately my call, and at the moment, I’m choosing to keep myself alive…so, there must be a reason I’m doing that.

I think it was also a helpful way of stopping the circulatory nature of those conversations. I could take about how much I wanted to end my life almost indefinitely. And that definitely wasn’t helpful.

If there’s a type of response you’re looking for, or something about your suicidality you want to talk about - tell him. Otherwise, yeah, reflecting back to you the reality of suicide (ultimately, it’s our choice, but there’s good reasons not to) is potentially what you’re left with.

Hey @Ecdysis I really really recognise the place you're at... I've been there myself... having been through this a number if times though, I think like others here, it's given me opportunity for reflection...

I've highlighted @Sideways post because essentially all the points here were the same or similar to what I was going to say...

To add to that though, for me, what I've realised is a few things.... first there are different ways in which my suicidality has shown up for me... 1) dreaming of it as a way out but not really meaning it (and that's when, even though i can't tell people about it, i really do want someone to see and say 'You must be hurting so much' ... then there have been times where 2) i don't want to tell anyone because there's a higher chance i carry it out and at that point, i don't give a shit if anyone knows about it because if I'm going to do it, no one can stop me...
and in a way, being reminded that it's my choice in those moments is incredibly powerful because powerlessness (or perceived powerlessness) is the exact reason I've got to that point in myself.... to have someone emotionally involved in those moments, like T, can put the pressure on me in a worse way... makes things harder... but when he reminds me it is my choice, i take that in and it helps...because it's someone saying 'Hey you're not completely powerless '... and that speaks directly to my older wiser self and helps calm things.... that's just me though... and I have to say I've had to call my T out once when despite me being seriously suicidal for a number of weeks, he didn't make a referral he was supposed to (until I asked him why it hadn't been made)...

i also think my T tries to put a boundary around the amount of emotional involvement he has in a situation like this, because it could make things so much worse for me at a later time if he reacts more emotionally one time ... Ts have SUCH a difficult job of building healthy attachments with us which don't cross emotional boundaries (and they don't always get it right). So hard!!! If one time they react in a way you want to hear by giving that more emotional response, that may create an expectation for you that they react like that whenever you feel like that. Then if they react differently one time when things are bad, you may read that as 'not even T cares this time!'...or some such - the possibilities are endless for how our brains can read into things...

Don't know if that helps, I don't feel I've explained myself well. But I think it's ok to bring what you think/ feel about it into the room, because if your T knows what he's doing, he won't be surprised by what you say and he should be able to navigate it with you...

Have a think about what you want him to say...

 

[Ecdysis]

So, with the childhood trauma that I went through… I never grieved it… I went through it like a child soldier… Just keep going… Don’t cry… Don’t show weakness… Keep functioning… You have to keep going… No one will help you, you have to help yourself…

That sort of “worked” until it didn’t… It worked until I was 40 and then a new trauma hit me unexpectedly, out of the blue and it utterly floored me… All that functioning was gone… I couldn’t keep going…

Well, except, I could for a while… I remember being totally numb… Couldn’t feel a thing… And I just kept going through the motions… Worked 70 hour weeks, to prevent myself collapsing into the grief… But I was a shadow of myself... Just functioning outwardly...

I did that for 4 years and then I collapsed completely… Just catatonic… Major depression that wouldn’t respond to any kind of treatment or therapy. And the trauma at 40, it brought up all the unprocessed grief of childhood trauma, all at once, in a huge tsunami… All the sorrow, all the pain…

I think the no longer wanting to be alive thing… That just happened when I reached breaking point… It was just too much and my brain and body and soul just stepped out of life… Refused to participate anymore… I couldn’t cope anymore and I didn’t want to cope anymore… I just wanted to let go… Wanted it all to stop… Just wanted it to be over…

And that’s where I’m stuck… I don’t know how to grieve… I don’t know how to get over it… I don’t know how to let go… I don’t know how to keep living… I don’t know what to do…

I keep trying to function, hoping that will bring me back into life… Like when you see people pushing a car that won’t start, and then, by being pushed, the motor starts up again…

That’s what I keep hoping… That if I just keep going long enough, my motor will somehow start stuttering again and start running again…

Maybe that’s the wrong approach… Maybe I’m just trying to bypass the grief and until I feel it – all of it – it will never leave me and will always hover over me like a bird of prey, waiting to devour me…

 

[beaneeboo]

I hear you on so much of this I really do...

Wishing you well @Ecdysis

 

[Friday]

I can't really relate to the issues you posted @Applecore . I'm not sure that everyone who struggles with suicide is narcissistic? That seems like a weird logic to me.

There is a peculiar selfishness attached to suicide… IE DGAF what your death means to others. The McPeople you’ve never met, who have to deal with your disgusting corpse, & the people who love you, who are heartbroken by your loss, being the two major poles. Even if you/I/we believe they are better off? There is still a perfect circle of devastation left behind. For OTHERS to deal with. That people who off themselves DGAF about. Because they/I/We are all about OUR pain, and OUR reasons for leaving. Whether you’re a suicide bomber, or jumper. Your disgusting corpse, alone, means a team has to wade through your remains, to remove them. Or plague follows. As corpses are plague machines. So someone’s gotta scape you up, or pout you into, some sort of vessel. Then your loved ones have to pay for the destruction of your body. Burned. Buried. Something. About 10k in total. (Have anyone in your life you’d ask 10k from? Because life insurance doesn’t pay out, for suicide). By offing yourself, you’re demanding 10k, from SOMEONE. Or you get burned with medical waste, and they are stuck in court for the next 2-6 years in lawsuits from the state, averaging… 20-50k. Is anyone you know a) that wealthy, that they’d easily pay 10-50k for your bloated decaying disease ridden corpse disposal? Or do you just not give a f*ck? Let them EAT your death costs?

The thing is… when most people want to die? They’re in soooooooo much pain that those ^^^basic^^^ considerations don’t enter in. Much less the far more complicated emotional/mental/psych issues (people who’ve had a loved one suicide? Are a zillion times more likely to take their own lives, etc.).

Killing yourself? Is pretty much the most narcissistic thing a person can EVER do.

GOLD STANDARD narcissism, suicide.

 

[Movingforward10]

That sort of “worked” until it didn’t… It worked until I was 40 and then a new trauma hit me unexpectedly, out of the blue and it utterly floored me… All that functioning was gone… I couldn’t keep going…

I did the same. Shut it all out until I was 40 and whilst I didn't have a new trauma, I had a trigger that caused a depression and then entered therapy.
I read somewhere that turning 40 and things catching up with you is a 'thing'. Apparently a lot of first offenders can be 40. Maybe those coping strategies have a life span.

And that’s where I’m stuck… I don’t know how to grieve… I don’t know how to get over it… I don’t know how to let go… I don’t know how to keep living… I don’t know what to do…

Being stuck is horrible. Being in SI is horrible.
I think grieving is important. But the steps to get to knowing there is emotion, then knowing what that emotion is, and then knowing why there is that emotion, then being able to feel that emotion, and not being consumed by it, and learning to let it pass. All is massive massive work. It's hard.
Something is protecting you from those emotions still? Something blocking you from getting to it.

 

[Ecdysis]

There is a peculiar selfishness attached to suicide… IE DGAF what your death means to others. The McPeople you’ve never met, who have to deal with your disgusting corpse, & the people who love you, who are heartbroken by your loss, being the two major poles. Even if you/I/we believe they are better off? There is still a perfect circle of devastation left behind. For OTHERS to deal with. That people who off themselves DGAF about. Because they/I/We are all about OUR pain, and OUR reasons for leaving. Whether you’re a suicide bomber, or jumper. Your disgusting corpse, alone, means a team has to wade through your remains, to remove them. Or plague follows. As corpses are plague machines. So someone’s gotta scape you up, or pout you into, some sort of vessel. Then your loved ones have to pay for the destruction of your body. Burned. Buried. Something. About 10k in total. (Have anyone in your life you’d ask 10k from? Because life insurance doesn’t pay out, for suicide). By offing yourself, you’re demanding 10k, from SOMEONE. Or you get burned with medical waste, and they are stuck in court for the next 2-6 years in lawsuits from the state, averaging… 20-50k. Is anyone you know a) that wealthy, that they’d easily pay 10-50k for your bloated decaying disease ridden corpse disposal? Or do you just not give a f*ck? Let them EAT your death costs?

The thing is… when most people want to die? They’re in soooooooo much pain that those ^^^basic^^^ considerations don’t enter in. Much less the far more complicated emotional/mental/psych issues (people who’ve had a loved one suicide? Are a zillion times more likely to take their own lives, etc.).

Killing yourself? Is pretty much the most narcissistic thing a person can EVER do.

GOLD STANDARD narcissism, suicide.

You know what, I think people who want to guilt trip people about being suicidal are a special kind of sick, too.

Who cares about any of that crap, whether you're suicidal or not?

If I have a heart attack while driving a car, someone's gotta scrape my body off some tarmac too. SOO F*CKING WHAT???

Anyone who needs to have a rant about suicide being narcisstic needs to take it somewhere else, out of the thread I've started here.

Go rant away about it as much as you want but I'll be ignoring it. Cos you know, I'm sooooo narcissitic like that.

 

[Sideways]

Mod Note:
Highlighting this for folks posting in this thread:

Anyone who needs to have a rant about suicide being narcisstic needs to take it somewhere else, out of the thread I've started here.

Everyone struggling with suicidality is welcome to start their own thread.

In this thread, please post in accordance with the OP’s request moving forward.

 

[user27357]

hey, first off, i mean no harm. Narcissistic is a harsh term that maybe does maybe doesn't describe the lack of give a f that has to be overwhelming anyone that carries through. but, being aware of the mess left behind is a consideration IF you are considerate. I agree with the points made by our heroic mod in this thread, and second most of them, especially the points about the weight of the burden left on the people left behind. It is huge, emotionally, financially, all of it. As a member of the scrape it up team with more than a few rodeos, I can never un see the things left behind and if for no other reason than what I have in my memory I know I can't do it to anyone myself. But I think about it, and I talk about it. I get help for the thoughts, I seek input from therapists looking for ways to stop the thoughts. all of what was expressed was done in an attempt to help you keep from doing it to someone without being aware of what it was you were causing.
I don't think harm was intended, I would bet on it.

If I have a heart attack while driving a car, someone's gotta scrape my body off some tarmac too. SOO F*CKING WHAT???

its a mess, heart attack or suicide. As a past scraper, I gotta tell you, I hope you never have to be scraped up no matter what the reason why.

 

[Tinyflame]

Hi @Ecdysis . I think there are flavours of SI, from despair to not being able to cope or guilt or shame or survivors' guilt. But going by your first post, I don't think your T meant 'meh' or 'whatever', I think he just said reality facts: it is your choice, if you choose you will complete it, and there are better choices. But the only way to get something out in the dark in to the light is to have the ability and confidentiality to safely do so.

Trauma often takes away choice. Sometimes the only choice left seems SI. But trying to catch on to logic on it I can say for me might be like catching fog or dancing with the devil. For me the logic/ intellectualizing would lead to choose it. And not out of selfishness- the closest to me kept telling me I should/ wish I would/ I'd better. Combine that with no way out of the daily deal and it was harder not to.

But what I mean by there's only so much sense that can come out of it is that thinking was worse than support. And promising to live much harder but not for myself, because giving up would be easier for me.

Also, I am in a job with lots of death as the end result. I think of a coworker of mine who was a Body Snatcher on the side. It doesn't have the same shock value as if not always exposed to it. Nevertheless, perhaps for some SI is narcissistic, but for others a plea for help where they don't know where or how to begin. I think it's actually great your T does not over-react but also you trust him enough to say it. You both deserve credit.

Keep talking and take it a day at a a time. Hugs to you.