General What are they thinking?

[Freida]

@NaeNae75 I dont think you are being adversarial -- I ask myself these same questions :)

But I don't leave physically very often or for very long. I know I "can't".

Long before diagnosis/hubby/etc.. I was a classic runner. example? I got on a train one night and got off 800 miles away. Got a job, an apartment, hung out for a year. Eventually came home. The "I can't" part didn't come into play because everything I needed was my in my go bag so I brought it with me.

then how are you in a "functional" marriage? I mean, it seems you genuinely love your husband and he's gained your trust, correct? I mean, I know it's been a tremendous amount of work for you both, but it's real, right?

I
LOL ohhhh the word functional. :roflmao: We've been together almost 24 years and I think I leave out a lot of the tough ones when I talk about us. We did marriage counseling on and off when I WASN'T symptomatic. Which meant I was able to concentrate of what we needed as a couple. It worked because we NEVER talked about my past. EVER. This was long before I was diagnosed and back when ptsd was something only vietnam vets had. So I was considered just flighty and temperamental. One of the best sessions we had was with a T who told us
1 - it's normal to have issues every 5 to 7 years in a marriage
2 - we needed to learn to fight more effectively.

That saved our marriage and we still use those skills. Plus hubby is a very, very laid back person and he has never known me without ptsd so he just...accepts it. Though he will be the first to tell you that me finally getting help is making things way better for us
30451"]Why do you think it's best for both instead of just what you need?[/QUOTE]
For me it's more about the panic factor. When I'm symptomatic I am all about not being safe. So if he is with me -he's not safe either (hes a 2nd degree blackbelt and was a reserve cop so you can imagine how that goes over :laugh:) I HAVE to leave because otherwise I make him a target. I'm running on total adrenaline and I have to get space between me and my loved ones to protect them. ie - they are better off without me.

honestly don't think needing time and space when symptomatic is something to be guilty for. I mean, it's a need... .so why not just call it what it is? For us, it's his need, not our need - but he sees it as for me too.

Even with all the counseling I still feel guilty because I have no control over something that disrupts our lives so totally. I also feel guilty because of what I did that caused the ptsd.

When you boil it all down the biggest challenge is trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. which sucks.

 

[Freida]

I just thought of this....
When I'm really bad and take off I usually don't care if hubby comes with me or not. If he's in the car I won't leave him on the side of the road or anything. Except on a really bad anniversary. Then I don't want him or anyone else anywhere around me (except for my battle buddies.) So why, thinks I, is that?

Because those anniversaries are about what I did to survive. It's a constant bombardment of what happened, what it felt like physically, emotionally, mentally and the horrible things that I did. The things I still cant talk about and probably wont ever be able to. I did them to save my life yes, but I'm still contaminated by them even at the best of times. And yea, people can tell me they love me and they don't care what I had to do and they are happy I lived and all that crap. But that is all it is. Crap. I don't want their sympathy or their forgiveness and I sure as shit don't want their pity. I don't want them looking at me and saying oh poor thing and what can I bring you and how are you feeling. Because when I'm in that place? I have no doubt in my mind that if they knew the truth they would run as far and as fast as they could to get away from me. Because I am poisoned
So I beat them to it.
I take off
Because that's what I'm running from.
Them knowing the truth about me


well crap. SD just crawled up on my lap. Guess I've just triggered myself. :banghead:

 

[HopefulD]

I just thought of this....
When I'm really bad and take off I usually don't care if hubby comes with me or not. If he's in the car I won't leave him on the side of the road or anything. Except on a really bad anniversary. Then I don't want him or anyone else anywhere around me (except for my battle buddies.) So why, thinks I, is that?

Because those anniversaries are about what I did to survive. It's a constant bombardment of what happened, what it felt like physically, emotionally, mentally and the horrible things that I did. The things I still cant talk about and probably wont ever be able to. I did them to save my life yes, but I'm still contaminated by them even at the best of times. And yea, people can tell me they love me and they don't care what I had to do and they are happy I lived and all that crap. But that is all it is. Crap. I don't want their sympathy or their forgiveness and I sure as shit don't want their pity. I don't want them looking at me and saying oh poor thing and what can I bring you and how are you feeling. Because when I'm in that place? I have no doubt in my mind that if they knew the truth they would run as far and as fast as they could to get away from me. Because I am poisoned
So I beat them to it.
I take off
Because that's what I'm running from.
Them knowing the truth about me


well crap. SD just crawled up on my lap. Guess I've just triggered myself. :banghead:

I have moments where something will trigger my bad memories and I just feel like *hit. I don't want people pitying me. I don't want to talk about it or think about it. I just want it to go way back down in the dark files of my brain. Back from whence it came before a smell or a visual triggered it. Mine is physical verbal and emotional abuse. 18 years of it from my alcoholic father and step mother's, yes plural. I'm certain it doesn't come close to the trauma my combat vet is struggling with. I'm sure it's minute compared to what you are dealing with. I could feel some very real emotions in your words. I get annoyed with people who tell me they are proud of me for coming out the other side of it and doing well. Doing well in my life? It's still here. How is that well! It isn't. My running consists of shutting people out only to have them ask me what's wrong. I just want to live by myself and in quiet. So yes I get the running...... trying to get as far away from hell as possible. For me it doesn't work.

 

[Abstract]

Nae Nae,
I think you are just able to see this very logically. Not sure how much treatment and work he has done but his understanding may change as that does.

I also withdraw and switch off rather than physically remove myself but in truth that is partly because my husband never ever pushes me in any way. I have space in my environment. That doesnt mean Im not riddled with guilt and self hatred or that it doesnt harm him.

I suspect the "they are better off" thing is a little like suicidal ideation. Its absurd in almost 100% of situations to think those around you are better off if you complete suicide but its one of the most common thought patterns that prevails. Its an expression of the level of someone's self hatred, self judgment and despair. Not a rational healthy mindspace.

It is extremely important to let others make decisions for themselves and we really don't have a right to do that for them. A process I guess.

 

[EveHarrington]

Isn’t it like a billion percent logical to want to NOT drag your loved ones through hell when you’re going through it yourself?

We don’t want this disorder. We’d do anything to not have it. Doesn’t it stand to reason that we wouldn’t want our loved ones to live this hell? Shit, I don’t think any of us would wish this on our worst enemies, so why would we ever want our loved ones to suffer through this hell?

Make sense now?

 

[NaeNae75]

I guess for me, not really because I'm already living in the nightmare. I've been in it for my entire existence, so it is all I know. Happy go lucky dreams are not part of my life.

I understand not wanting to wish it on anyone. I'm perfectly aware of the pain involved. I know that my dad was the opposite, and gave us our first glimpse at the monsters as early as my memories exist.He talked about every gory detail to us ever since we were way too young to even understand. His depictions of combat were definitely not close to PG. The flashbacks where we had to try to not be seen by him to survive were even worse. But this was and is still normal for my dad. The flashbacks are mostly gone since he quit drinking, but as he's aging, I'm afraid of what dementia will mean for us as a family. So I get not wanting to let someone ALL the way in.

With K, I don't pry. I let him tell me what he does and let him keep what he doesn't want to tell me. He returns the favor. No one but my T knows more about me and my trauma than him. I spare him details too. But I never have felt the need to break up to protect him. On the few occasions that I have completely checked out...he wouldn't leave even when I asked. Just let me be in my room. I only physically left once because while falling asleep I had a flashback and left not even knowing where I was or who he was. That's different, though.

But I'm not asking to go through his hell with him. I would, if he asked me to...because I more detach and dissociate. I guess I'm saying that he doesn't need to break up to keep me from it. I don't need to invade his space. He can have it with my love. He's allowed to do whatever he needs to for himself, including this. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt or that I understand why.

Because this doesn't protect anyone from anything in the real world. At least not in my real world. Because my imagination of the horror is often way worse than what he shares anyway. Also, leaving doesn't make the "person you love" shut off their feelings. It creates more for them. People don't have pause buttons. Removing yourself doesn't protect anyone from anything...not really. I understand why the "sufferer" needs to believe it for their safett, but it's not what happens in reality. Leaving or complete divulging aren't the only two options.

See, by him breaking up or telling me I need to find someone better, or him telling me all the self-loathing reasons he needs to isolate, he IS pulling me into it. Watching him, knowing he's suffering, but being forced to keep my distance does exactly the opposite of protect me from it. I'm helpless to fix anything either way...but if I'm around, I can at least do stuff with his son. That both makes me feel better and keeps his son from suffering isolation right along with him. I can at least help do day to day stuff that takes a little extra out of the stress cup. Sometimes that helps the longevity of an "episode". You see pushing away ties my hands, it doesn't save me from anything.

Even if we break up, guess what, I still deal with PTSD every day anyway. Mine, my dad, my adopted daughter....so no it doesn't make any more sense. Because I'm still here. He might not want me to be, but I am. I'm not afraid of sitting with him in the dark....I live there.

I know that a lot of this, for him, comes from shame. I know you follow Brene Brown, Eve....so you know where I'm going with this....so she talks all the time that shame lives in the dark, the shadows of solitude. When shared, it begins to die. That when shared, shame cannot survive. There us literally nothing he could say that would shake me. Nothing he could tell me that I haven't heard worse from my father or experienced in my own trauma or things I've done to survive.

But even if that wasn't the case, the perceived threat is just that. It's real to the survivor, but not the supporter. When I have opened up to him, it didn't make it real for him, he didn't retract in horror like I do for my own stuff. Anything he's ever told me, isn't my trauma...it's his. I don't recoil, I don't think less, I don't feel sorry...I just try to emphasize with the fact it's real to him and sit next to him with it. I try to give him what I would want.

So it doesn't make sense, because being around and not isolating isn't really protecting your loved one...it just feels that way because that's the survivors perspective/ point of view. Unless you actually trust the other person and open up with the person, you'll never actually know how it affects them.

Honestly I don't know the real answer because I'm screwed up too...and I also can only see things from my own experiences.

But I think the reality is, if that was true, every therapist in the world would be damaged...people can be more resilient than we give them credit for. Plus the severity trauma is experienced as is usually tied to the emotions and conditions of each individual.

I'm again, not trying to be confrontational, but it isn't just that simple. Survivors deal with a LOT, but so do supporters. I've been on both sides of the fence...neither is a cup of tea at different times. To just disregard supporters isn't healthy either. I mean, after almost 9 years, I think I've proven I'm not going to have a melt down. But he doesn't see it when he's symptomatic. All he sees is the distorted cognition, and the thought that supporters need to be protected can honestly be one of them.

Now, don't get me wrong, some people can't handle it but each relationship needs to be considered on case by case...
I believe healthy relationships can be achieved, but only when healing is sought out. Connection is one of those chicken/ egg things. It's needed for trust, but builds it. It heals, but you need to be healthy enough to be open to it.

I believe most survivors/ sufferers here are trying to heal, so the dynamic can be a bit different. Yikes...I think this might be babbling, so I'm going to stop now. My mind is a mile a minute...

 

[Abstract]

leaving doesn't make the "person you love" shut off their feelings. It creates more for them. People don't have pause buttons. Removing yourself doesn't protect anyone from anything...not really

This is true. Personally I never buy into the idea that it would. Stay very aware that it would make it worse. Almost wish that wasnt the case. Its especially doesnt make sense in your context. As you say you are already in your own version of it. But people are different, their patterns of how they deal with things differ, the amount of work they have done sometimes changes things, and their trauma. It does also probably partly come down to a fight flight fawn freeze thing just a little at times too. Habit. You might also find that he perceives you as being more together and OK than he perceives himself to be. Therefore less self worth again. Shame. Withdrawal for me is a form of wanting to stop being.

You really don't have to accept what doesnt work for you though. Have you tried to set boundaries for yourself for this? So the two of you can try to find something that works better.

Totally don't think anyone here thinks the sufferer is the only one suffering.

Also you are of course totally right that hearing about something awful isnt the same as hearing about something that has traumatised us. Again, different personality types are different. Some people really don't want to hear anything and they have that right if so. People are different. You are essentially as much hitting up against your differences as hitting up against his PTSD.

 

[EveHarrington]

I guess for me, not really because I'm already living in the nightmare. I've been in it for my entire existence, so it is all I know. Happy go lucky dreams are not part of my life.

I understand not wanting to wish it on anyone. I'm perfectly aware of the pain involved. I know that my dad was the opposite, and gave us our first glimpse at the monsters as early as my memories exist.He talked about every gory detail to us ever since we were way too young to even understand. His depictions of combat were definitely not close to PG. The flashbacks where we had to try to not be seen by him to survive were even worse. But this was and is still normal for my dad. The flashbacks are mostly gone since he quit drinking, but as he's aging, I'm afraid of what dementia will mean for us as a family. So I get not wanting to let someone ALL the way in.

With K, I don't pry. I let him tell me what he does and let him keep what he doesn't want to tell me. He returns the favor. No one but my T knows more about me and my trauma than him. I spare him details too. But I never have felt the need to break up to protect him. On the few occasions that I have completely checked out...he wouldn't leave even when I asked. Just let me be in my room. I only physically left once because while falling asleep I had a flashback and left not even knowing where I was or who he was. That's different, though.

But I'm not asking to go through his hell with him. I would, if he asked me to...because I more detach and dissociate. I guess I'm saying that he doesn't need to break up to keep me from it. I don't need to invade his space. He can have it with my love. He's allowed to do whatever he needs to for himself, including this. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt or that I understand why.

Because this doesn't protect anyone from anything in the real world. At least not in my real world. Because my imagination of the horror is often way worse than what he shares anyway. Also, leaving doesn't make the "person you love" shut off their feelings. It creates more for them. People don't have pause buttons. Removing yourself doesn't protect anyone from anything...not really. I understand why the "sufferer" needs to believe it for their safett, but it's not what happens in reality. Leaving or complete divulging aren't the only two options.

See, by him breaking up or telling me I need to find someone better, or him telling me all the self-loathing reasons he needs to isolate, he IS pulling me into it. Watching him, knowing he's suffering, but being forced to keep my distance does exactly the opposite of protect me from it. I'm helpless to fix anything either way...but if I'm around, I can at least do stuff with his son. That both makes me feel better and keeps his son from suffering isolation right along with him. I can at least help do day to day stuff that takes a little extra out of the stress cup. Sometimes that helps the longevity of an "episode". You see pushing away ties my hands, it doesn't save me from anything.

Even if we break up, guess what, I still deal with PTSD every day anyway. Mine, my dad, my adopted daughter....so no it doesn't make any more sense. Because I'm still here. He might not want me to be, but I am. I'm not afraid of sitting with him in the dark....I live there.

I know that a lot of this, for him, comes from shame. I know you follow Brene Brown, Eve....so you know where I'm going with this....so she talks all the time that shame lives in the dark, the shadows of solitude. When shared, it begins to die. That when shared, shame cannot survive. There us literally nothing he could say that would shake me. Nothing he could tell me that I haven't heard worse from my father or experienced in my own trauma or things I've done to survive.

But even if that wasn't the case, the perceived threat is just that. It's real to the survivor, but not the supporter. When I have opened up to him, it didn't make it real for him, he didn't retract in horror like I do for my own stuff. Anything he's ever told me, isn't my trauma...it's his. I don't recoil, I don't think less, I don't feel sorry...I just try to emphasize with the fact it's real to him and sit next to him with it. I try to give him what I would want.

So it doesn't make sense, because being around and not isolating isn't really protecting your loved one...it just feels that way because that's the survivors perspective/ point of view. Unless you actually trust the other person and open up with the person, you'll never actually know how it affects them.

Honestly I don't know the real answer because I'm screwed up too...and I also can only see things from my own experiences.

But I think the reality is, if that was true, every therapist in the world would be damaged...people can be more resilient than we give them credit for. Plus the severity trauma is experienced as is usually tied to the emotions and conditions of each individual.

I'm again, not trying to be confrontational, but it isn't just that simple. Survivors deal with a LOT, but so do supporters. I've been on both sides of the fence...neither is a cup of tea at different times. To just disregard supporters isn't healthy either. I mean, after almost 9 years, I think I've proven I'm not going to have a melt down. But he doesn't see it when he's symptomatic. All he sees is the distorted cognition, and the thought that supporters need to be protected can honestly be one of them.

Now, don't get me wrong, some people can't handle it but each relationship needs to be considered on case by case...
I believe healthy relationships can be achieved, but only when healing is sought out. Connection is one of those chicken/ egg things. It's needed for trust, but builds it. It heals, but you need to be healthy enough to be open to it.

I believe most survivors/ sufferers here are trying to heal, so the dynamic can be a bit different. Yikes...I think this might be babbling, so I'm going to stop now. My mind is a mile a minute...

I know it’s not so simple...

I shared what goes through my mind when I push/run, but I know we aren’t all the same. It’s like my brain is running in primitive mode where I simply cannot think of relationships in a complex manner.

Ack! I’m scared! Need to run... Can’t take people down with me, must do this on my own.

Really, people have told me that my mind cannot think of the bigger picture when I’m “triggered”. I think in simple ways of 1 + 2 = 3... Or at least my perception is that it’s simple. The thought process breaks down along the way so I don’t/can’t comprehend anything complex. It really IS “oh there’s a problem, let’s fix the problem”.... I’m causing you pain, so if I “go away” I can’t hurt you anymore. Flawed logic, but it makes perfect sense in the moment....if only because I’m drowning in symptoms so I must take care of myself and have no strength to do anything more complex to make you feel ok, too. Does this make any sense? I really do feel like my brain can’t handle higher thinking when I’m in “triggered” mode as there’s no arguing with me or changing my mind.

 

[Freida]

So it doesn't make sense, because being around and not isolating isn't really protecting your loved one...it just feels that way because that's the survivors perspective/ point of view.

Just more of the fun of ptsd -- cluttering up my mind with the things I think work and end up hurting people more. Luckily I have some very patient supporters

Also, leaving doesn't make the "person you love" shut off their feelings. It creates more for them.

Would ya believe I had no idea this was true until I came here? Reading the stories from the supporters was a very, very, humbling experience. Because it had NEVER dawned on me that they might feel something about me taking off.

 

[NaeNae75]

You really don't have to accept what doesnt work for you though. Have you tried to set boundaries for yourself for this? So the two of you can try to find something that works better.

Yes and no...but this time I'm different, .so the old boundaries need ti be reevaluated anyway. He said the other day, "I'm sorry if you feel ignored while I try to figure out my boundaries ". So I think he's working on it too.

I shared what goes through my mind when I push/run, but I know we aren’t all the same. It’s like my brain is running in primitive mode where I simply cannot think of relationships in a complex manner.

It really IS “oh there’s a problem, let’s fix the problem”.... I’m causing you pain, so if I “go away” I can’t hurt you anymore. Flawed logic, but it makes perfect sense in the moment....if only because I’m drowning in symptoms so I must take care of myself and have no strength to do anything more complex to make you feel ok, too. Does this make any sense

Yes, this makes sense and I understand it. I accept it for what it is. I get that it makes sense for people that isolate. I guess I'm just saying that because that feels right to you didn't make it the truth. That's the whole sad disconnect. If any of us could figure it out, Bottle up the solution, and sell it, we'd be rich! Lol. It's just the human experience. We all have different lenses ....and that's okay.

Just more of the fun of ptsd -- cluttering up my mind with the things I think work and end up hurting people more. Luckily I have some very patient supporters

Would ya believe I had no idea this was true until I came here? Reading the stories from the supporters was a very, very, humbling experience. Because it had NEVER dawned on me that they might feel something about me taking off.

This... this is why this thread is so important to both sides. It is opening minds and starting the conversation in a safe place for all "sides". If we all use this to move forward with more understanding, that's am amazing thing.

I feel so much for everyone on this post...I swear I just want a group hug, lol. If we can manage to translate this into our lives, it is all so healthy. So much empathy and understanding. This could be part of the key to breaking through. If not a solution, but a way to really understand the other side yo make ever so slightly bearable. Maybe one day lead to true healing!

I appreciate so greatly the chance you take to put your feelings out here. It's very brave.

 

[HopefulD]

General question when a sufferer isolates and cuts off someone they just professed love for, do their feelings change for that person? I understand when they are symptomatic but when symptoms abate do they feel again as they did before? My PTSD works on abuse/abandonment not from combat PTSD. So I tend to shut down rather than run or physically leave the relationship. My shut downs are temporary, never lengthy days,weeks etc.
Just trying to understand more what is happening during the flight response of a combat vet. Thanks.

 

[Itsatay]

General question when a sufferer isolates and cuts off someone they just professed love for, do their feelings change for that person? I understand when they are symptomatic but when symptoms abate do they feel again as they did before?

Trying to figure this out as well - friend of mine shut down on me about 6 weeks ago. He's apparently still talking to other mutual friends and is planning to meet up with them for a convention in a few weeks so I'm not taking this as a general isolation period, it seems to be specific to me. What he wants from me is about as clear as mud. Not sure if it's worth waiting to reach out again later, or if I should just let go. :(