Other What can fall under trauma?

[humbleduffel]

I've been thinking a lot about my symptoms, and I feel like I have some form of PTSD and will soon have this discussion with my therapist fully (had mentioned it before, but never brought forth the research). I avoid anything that physically reminds me of the events, I have these weird emotional flashbacks, major anxiety and depression, etc. But my events don't seem like they could be traumatic to anyone else the more you think about it. The first incident involved a girl being highly stressed out and me receiving a message saying to never talk to them again, which sparked my initial era of depression. The second, more recent incident that causes these symptoms was someone I trusted blocking me and refusing to talk to me, looking hurt and upset at the sight of me, off of an action that I instantly regretted. Could this actually be something traumatizing if it hurt me that much? Every other part about this theory of my symptoms makes sense, and is backed by research linking it to some part of PTSD, except that I can't find anything similar to this or on this level that is classified as a traumatic event. Any thoughts?

 

[Jade-]

I'm sure those events were upsetting for you but definitely not anything that can cause PTSD.

 

[Friday]

Could this actually be something traumatizing if it hurt me that much?

Nope. At least not in the PTSD sense. Because PTSD isn’t a pain scale, it’s not about how much it hurt; and Criterion A trauma -which is the type of trauma that one is looking at with PTSD- doesn’t have any kind of “value” attached to it. Meaning that a person can get PTSD from an event that they consider fun, or of no moment, just as easily as from an event they consider mildly-profoundly distressing. If that doesn’t make immediate sense? A huge number of people get PTSD from their jobs. Jobs they love. Soldiers, surgeons, journalists, cops, firefighters, hostage negotiators, investigators, etc. Meanwhile? Some of the most painful things in life -like profound grief- don’t cause PTSD.

PTSD isn’t about being in pain or scared. Its not about how much it hurt or how much fun you were having. It doesn’t matter whether it’s from a job you love or a situation you found yourself in through no fault of your own. It’s about how the brain sometimes reacts to certain types of things.

We call those specific types of things “trauma” but more accurately they’d be described as Criterion A Trauma, because the word trauma can be used many different ways. Colloquially, psychologically, medically, etc.

Criterion A level trauma, which is the type of trauma that’s known to cause PTSD is very narrowly defined in the DSM as

Criterion A: stressor (one required)
The person was exposed to: death, threatened death, actual or threatened serious injury, or actual or threatened sexual violence, in the following way(s):

• Direct exposure
• Witnessing the trauma
• Learning that a relative or close friend was exposed to a trauma
• Indirect exposure to aversive details of the trauma, usually in the course of professional duties (e.g., first responders, medics)

***

I've been thinking a lot about my symptoms,

Something very important to know is that NONE of the symptoms of PTSD are unique to PTSD. They’re all found in other disorders. How they’re best handled? Will vary depending on what disorder someone is dealing with. There will be some crossover, certainly, but the same symptom of Avoidance, for example? Is handled differently if you’re looking at OCD, GAD, ADHD, PTSD, Depression, Specific Phobia. etc.

Personally, I think taking the short list of symptoms that are bothering you the most to your therapist to be an excellent idea. Because regardless of where they come from? They’re bothering you. You don’t have to have an additional diagnosis to justify dealing with them. If you don’t already have a diagnosis, they may also help your Therapist narrow in on a diagnosis... but the symptoms you listed could easily be a part of over a dozen.

So rather than trying to fit your symptoms to a diagnosis, and bring in the possible Dx? Do it the other way around. Bring in your symptoms and if a diagnosis follows, so be it. It creates a far more accurate read. Which leads to better and more accurate treatment.

 

[siniang]

In addition to what @Friday said, even under the less narrow definition of the ICD-10, which is used in some countries in lieu of the DSM5, there is the bold part:

A. The patient must have been exposed to a stressful event or situation of exceptionally threatening or catastrophic nature, which would be likely to cause pervasive distress in almost anyone.

This is not to diminish or invalidate your symptoms, which are very valid and absolutely deserve treatment. Talk to your T about the symptoms - not a possible Dx. They can be part of what you're already suffering from or something else. Your T is there to help you figure this out.

 

[humbleduffel]

I'm sure those events were upsetting for you but definitely not anything that can cause PTSD.

First off, I want to thank everyone for responding to this thread. After I posted it I felt like it could sound like a sort of joke but this has actually been something I've been researching for a few days and actually been pondering over. I also would like to point out a few more things:

1. My therapist labelled it as trauma, but never discussed anything else.
2. I was temporarily a patient at a behavioral health facility that periodically tested me for PTSD, but never discussed it at all and all the answers pointed toward it, although I know that isn't a completely solid answer so I didn't want to completely rely on it.
3. I have been diagnosed with general anxiety, some form of depression, and a panic disorder.

Thank you @Friday for pointing out the Criterion for defining trauma. This definitely makes my situation something else and I will continue to research it. On the topic of symptoms potentially being a part of another disorder, I can't seem to find any information on emotional flashbacks other than as a symptom of c-PTSD. Do you have any information on this?

Thanks again everyone. Even though I don't share the same exact stuff as you I look forward to continuing to browse these forums and contribute in any way I can.

 

[siniang]

1. My therapist labelled it as trauma, but never discussed anything else.

Many many many things are traumatic to the individual person because of personality, experience, specific circumstances etc. For some people, even getting a wrong hair cut could be traumatic. Which doesn't mean that it can cause PTSD and is probably due to some other underlying disorder.

PTSD is caused by trauma.
Not all traumas have the potential to cause PTSD.
And even among those who do have the potential (Criterion A), not everyone experiencing them does get PTSD.

Maybe draw a picture. There is a big circle of "traumas". And within that big circle are "Criteron A traumas". If that makes sense.

My T, too, is quite lax with the word "trauma". Doesn't mean I could've gotten PTSD from all of them. Also, it does become a little more complicated when re-traumatized by different traumas after an initial (PTSD-causing) Criterion A trauma.

3. I have been diagnosed with general anxiety, some form of depression, and a panic disorder.

GAD itself has a ton of symptoms in line with PTSD and can very well result from or be exacerbated by your described experiences. Because of GAD and/or depression and/or panic disorder, many events can genuinely feel traumatic even if they don't fall under criterion A and wouldn't be to most people.

 

[Jade-]

I'm a bit surprised for your therapist to label those 2 events as "trauma" @humbleduffel .Sure,someone saying never talk to them and being blocked by someone are upsetting things but not really considered traumatic events.

I guess if a person was told by a professional that it is trauma they would take their word for it and understandably be researching and wondering if it's PTSD,as you are.

 

[Friday]

I can't seem to find any information on emotional flashbacks other than as a symptom of c-PTSD. Do you have any information on this?

Clinically speaking... Flashbacks are just “flashbacks” regardless of which sense is in play, people simply differentiate to ease communication. Emotional, auditory, olfactory, etc.

I’m not sure how many other disorders use the term itself... Drug induced disorders do, for sure, (if you’d looked up flashbacks 10 years ago you wouldn’t be getting PTSD references but drug references... not because PTSD doesn’t have flashbacks, just because drug induced flashbacks were more talked about. It’s just a function of search algorithms. With all the pop-culture references to PTSD & the new addition of CPTSD into the international classification of disease -and all the hot debate surrounding that, plus the attempt to get it into the DSM- the first several dozen pages of searches are going to be skewed towards PTSD, instead of others disorders that have them). ...BUT... Each disorder has its own shorthand, and there’s a looooot more to every disorder than what’s in the diagnostic criteria.

Just as an example, the diagnostic criteria for PTSD? Half a page. The Science & Practice of PTSD volume 2? Over 700 pages. ADHD, meanwhile (the other disorder I know best) doesn’t have flashbacks, per se, but we do have intrusive thoughts, impulse control issues, & emotional dysregulation. Add those 3 things together? What’s actually a vivid memory often looks like a flashback, because the emotion is actually re-experienced. But even though it’s relived, there’s a series of extra steps (the impulse control & emotional dysregulation) that means it’s not really a flashback. And is handled differently. Getting more present like with PTSD? Does NOT* help! Because it’s the present that kicked off the memory, one just ends up in a vicious loop trying to treat an ADHD perfect recall like a PTSD flashback. It’s bad juju. Serious sucks. :wtf: (*Unless one accidentally uses a completely distracting grounding trick. That can help. Disorder crossover.) Meanwhile? Being “flooded” can also look like an emotional flashback, when instead, it’s actually a function of anxiety & rumination in disorders like GAD & OCD as well as PTSD. Because, just like with ADHD, there’s extra steps that happen before being knocked over by the emotion. And just like with ADHD? Flooding brought on by anxiety or rumination is handled differently than impulse control issues and emotionally dysregulation which is handled differently than flashbacks. (Clear as mud? :wtf: )

So not only do several disorders share flashbacks, but a whole helluva lot of other disorders share end results that look the same, but actually come from wildly different places.

I happen to be comorbid ADHD + PTSD. Which means that sometimes? I don’t know whether what I’m feeling is a flashback, an ADHD-style super intense dysregulated memory, anxiety driven emotional flooding, or grief driven emotional flooding.

All 4 of which can simply strike out of the blue, and feel exactly the same. Which means I’m often “throwing pasta at the wall to see if it sticks”... meaning using -often very different- coping skills to see what works.

3. I have been diagnosed with general anxiety, some form of depression, and a panic disorder.

These are actually each “BIG” deal things, in and of their own right. 700 page book big, times 3. Don’t get sucked into the trap of thinking something is “just” anxiety, or “just” depression, etc. because people use the terms to describe everyday things (like I was a bit depressed today, instead of saying sad / tired, etc... or test anxiety, separation anxiety.) It’s like medically speaking a bruise is trauma, being raped is trauma, and having your arms and legs ripped off and bleeding out is trauma. They’re all trauma, but a bruise isn’t rape isn’t death. Depression, anxiety, & panic all have similar spectrums... and having an anxiety disorder, depressive disorder, panic disorder... means that you’re on the upper end of that spectrum.

HTH

 

[humbleduffel]

I'm a bit surprised for your therapist to label those 2 events as "trauma" @humbleduffel .Sure,someone saying never talk to them and being blocked by someone are upsetting things but not really considered traumatic events.

I guess if a person was told by a professional that it is trauma they would take their word for it and understandably be researching and wondering if it's PTSD,as you are.

Well I didn't fully describe the incidents, just a quick sentence. The one about being told to never talk to someone was after doing nothing, involved the girl having stress puked over asking to talk in person, along with every female I know hearing that side of the story and hating me and being assholes for over a year.

The second was being blocked by the only person I've been able to trust in the past two years, while I was in the process of fixing anxiety and eating disorder issues.

In context these times have caused me to be depressed, anxious, and more and completely ruined my mental state and I am just now almost recovered from the first event.

These definitely do not fall under the classification listed earlier though, so that whole ordeal is done with I guess.

 

[humbleduffel]

Clinically speaking... Flashbacks are just “flashbacks” regardless of which sense is in play, people simply differentiate to ease communication. Emotional, auditory, olfactory, etc.

I’m not sure how many other disorders use the term itself... Drug induced disorders do, for sure, (if you’d looked up flashbacks 10 years ago you wouldn’t be getting PTSD references but drug references... not because PTSD doesn’t have flashbacks, just because drug induced flashbacks were more talked about. It’s just a function of search algorithms. With all the pop-culture references to PTSD & the new addition of CPTSD into the international classification of disease -and all the hot debate surrounding that, plus the attempt to get it into the DSM- the first several dozen pages of searches are going to be skewed towards PTSD, instead of others disorders that have them). ...BUT... Each disorder has its own shorthand, and there’s a looooot more to every disorder than what’s in the diagnostic criteria.

Just as an example, the diagnostic criteria for PTSD? Half a page. The Science & Practice of PTSD volume 2? Over 700 pages. ADHD, meanwhile (the other disorder I know best) doesn’t have flashbacks, per se, but we do have intrusive thoughts, impulse control issues, & emotional dysregulation. Add those 3 things together? What’s actually a vivid memory often looks like a flashback, because the emotion is actually re-experienced. But even though it’s relived, there’s a series of extra steps (the impulse control & emotional dysregulation) that means it’s not really a flashback. And is handled differently. Getting more present like with PTSD? Does NOT* help! Because it’s the present that kicked off the memory, one just ends up in a vicious loop trying to treat an ADHD perfect recall like a PTSD flashback. It’s bad juju. Serious sucks. :wtf: (*Unless one accidentally uses a completely distracting grounding trick. That can help. Disorder crossover.) Meanwhile? Being “flooded” can also look like an emotional flashback, when instead, it’s actually a function of anxiety & rumination in disorders like GAD & OCD as well as PTSD. Because, just like with ADHD, there’s extra steps that happen before being knocked over by the emotion. And just like with ADHD? Flooding brought on by anxiety or rumination is handled differently than impulse control issues and emotionally dysregulation which is handled differently than flashbacks. (Clear as mud? :wtf: )

So not only do several disorders share flashbacks, but a whole helluva lot of other disorders share end results that look the same, but actually come from wildly different places.

I happen to be comorbid ADHD + PTSD. Which means that sometimes? I don’t know whether what I’m feeling is a flashback, an ADHD-style super intense dysregulated memory, anxiety driven emotional flooding, or grief driven emotional flooding.

All 4 of which can simply strike out of the blue, and feel exactly the same. Which means I’m often “throwing pasta at the wall to see if it sticks”... meaning using -often very different- coping skills to see what works.

3. I have been diagnosed with general anxiety, some form of depression, and a panic disorder.

These are actually each “BIG” deal things, in and of their own right. 700 page book big, times 3. Don’t get sucked into the trap of thinking something is “just” anxiety, or “just” depression, etc. because people use the terms to describe everyday things (like I was a bit depressed today, instead of saying sad / tired, etc... or test anxiety, separation anxiety.) It’s like medically speaking a bruise is trauma, being raped is trauma, and having your arms and legs ripped off and bleeding out is trauma. They’re all trauma, but a bruise isn’t rape isn’t death. Depression, anxiety, & panic all have similar spectrums... and having an anxiety disorder, depressive disorder, panic disorder... means that you’re on the upper end of that spectrum.

HTH

Holy crap, that description of your possible flashback-esque issues seems like a lot. Is there any way at all to tell the difference between them? What I get sounds a lot like what you described as being "flooded", where at random moments my mind will feel things I can directly relate to the feelings of certain events, but it's all just feelings not anything visual or outstanding really. It could just be me thinking it's that though. Very hard to tell.

thanks for the input on the last paragraph. I feel like I do go searching for things to validate my problems with other people. No one ever just accepts my problems head on when I describe it to them. It's pretty hard for people to get the difference between just being stressed and having full panic attacks, or in this case being upset over a girl or being fully depressed.

would it be possible for this thread to be locked now? It's up to you, but at this point it feels like people are just saying the same conclusion with the same points just more or less verbose ?

 

[flowerapple]

There are probably a lot of things that causes some traumatic response. How my therapist explained it, it's that there are two basic classes or types of traumas. There are small t trauma and big t trauma. From what you've said has led to you having symptoms, I think it would be categorized as small t trauma. Small t trauma are like infidelity, starting a new job, divorce, etc. Big t trauma are like natural disaster, terrorist attack, sexual assault, combat/war zone, car or plane accident, etc. That doesn't mean that your reaction isn't valid because it isn't big t trauma though, because small t trauma does have the potential to cause a traumatic response. Also the buildup of small t trauma can also potentially lead to a traumatic response.

Although what you have said would classify as trauma, it would be considered as small t trauma. Again this isn't to invalidate you reactions/symptoms. However, it would not cause PTSD, because PTSD has to do with big t traumas. So though you may have the symptoms and reactions like those of PTSD, it doesn't mean you have PTSD.

Just as how someone could have experienced/witnessed/learned of a big t trauma, and so they would meet criterion A of PTSD. Yet they still would be diagnosed as having PTSD, because though they experience symptoms from the event, they don't experience the amount of symptoms necessary for the diagnosis. That's not invalidate what they are experiencing either, and nonetheless they should seek treatment for it, but clinically they wouldn't be considered as having PTSD.

I do think your therapist was right to classify it as trauma. The problem is that for most people when they hear the word trauma they think of big t trauma, and so not many people consider small t trauma as being trauma. I also think that this may be where your confusion is coming from. I don't believe you have PTSD because Criterion A wasn't met, but I do believe what you are experiencing is some type of traumatic response.

I think this link might be of some help to you and your search. It also does a better job of explaining what I was trying to explain.

Different Types of Trauma: Small 't' versus Large ‘T’

These may also help as well.

Me Too: Big “T” vs. Little “t” Trauma: Fact and Perception

Big “T” and Little “t” Trauma

 

[joeylittle]

would it be possible for this thread to be locked now? It's up to you, but at this point it feels like people are just saying the same conclusion with the same points just more or less verbose

We don't generally lock threads - they often spin off into their own conversations. You can turn off your alerts for this thread if you don't want to 'watch' it anymore. Further questions about the site/how to use it can be directed to Contact Us.

In context these times have caused me to be depressed, anxious, and more and completely ruined my mental state and I am just now almost recovered from the first event.

I wanted to iterate that not having PTSD doesn't mean you aren't experiencing real and significant pain. I think in your case, it's going to be incredibly helpful to eliminate PTSD as the source of your symptoms - so you can make sure you and your therapist are really addressing the entire scope of what might be going on that is leading to your distress.

What I get sounds a lot like what you described as being "flooded", where at random moments my mind will feel things I can directly relate to the feelings of certain events, but it's all just feelings not anything visual or outstanding really. It could just be me thinking it's that though. Very hard to tell.

This will sound a little flippant - but what you are wondering about (emotional flashbacks) are more correctly called 'memories'.

People can fall into the trap of believing they need to pathologize their experience in order to be taken seriously, or be heard, or understand it themselves. You've said you've experienced this yourself -

I feel like I do go searching for things to validate my problems with other people. No one ever just accepts my problems head on when I describe it to them. It's pretty hard for people to get the difference between just being stressed and having full panic attacks, or in this case being upset over a girl or being fully depressed.

That's a very common experience. One of the things that is helpful to remember is, it's very legit to want help with life, relationships, disappointment...these things aren't easy, and we don't always have someone in our friend circle we can talk with about this stuff. Some of us don't have functional friendships, or sibling connections, or parental relationships.

A therapist is there to help you get relief from your pain. It's clear that you're having a very, very tough time - and it sounds like these events have made a real mark on you, in the forms of panic and depression. Depending on your age, you may be in the phase of neurological development where some mental illnesses actually start expressing themselves. You've got all sorts of really good reasons to see a therapist. And if you find yourself feeling like you need to 'prove' your pain with them - bring it up so they can help you navigate that as well.

I do hope you start finding some relief.