Why Can't Some Of Us Talk On The Forum?

[joeylittle]

@DeathRay - this is not meant as a provocative question - but is it possible you are mixing Behavioral Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy together? Behavioral conditioning is a powerful tool with its own sets of protocols and principles. Cognitive Behavioral does not take its name from a relationship to behavioral conditioning per se.

 

[wyrd_dragon]

One of the reasons I reject it, and that it does not resonate with me, is that I was abused by an organised pedophile ring who utilised similar techniques to brainwash and program me.

I understand the distinction. I did not claim that 'Cognitive Behavioral Therapy' was used in my abuse. I said they 'utilised similar techniques' and that's what I meant. Cognitive behavioral therapy triggers me extremely because it is very similar to methods used in my abuse. And the founder also makes me wish to stay as far away from it as possible because of the connections between my abusers and the False memory Foundation.

 

[joeylittle]

I did not claim that 'Cognitive Behavioral Therapy' was used in my abuse. I said they 'utilised similar techniques' and that's what I meant. Cognitive behavioral therapy triggers me extremely because it is very similar to methods used in my abuse.

It's good to have this clarified. I think, without knowing more detail, it's hard for a CBT practitioner to grasp this. Trauma-focused CBT in itself is very, very specific. An analogy: if I had a very bad experience with water, and was dangerously dehydrated, and someone handed me a glass of ice cubes - if I were very sensitive to my trigger (water) I could be equally sensitive to it in a different form. Someone explaining to me that the molecular structure was different would not really help me, because I'm coming from a bad experience that I have not wrestled with yet, and I'd really prefer it if ice cubes were kept out of my way altogether. I'd like the apple juice instead.

(Not trying to trivialize, just trying to bring the conversation into a different kind of focus for myself)

Is that analogy close?

 

[wyrd_dragon]

Yes! thank you. That analogy is perfect! :)

When someone uses CBT techniques with me -- and I do not have the specifics of what kind, as it has been a while since I had to confront it -- I have extreme visceral reactions. Nausea, panic attack, disorientation, a feeling that I am breaking up or losing 'myself' and feeling that I am becoming entirely unravelled. It's intensely distressing and destabilising.

I think that you're probably correct that it was more likely Behavioral Therapy, which can be used to condition, as all I have to go on is my reaction to CBT(in whatever form it was used on me in therapy) and it's the similarity in how it 'feels' that triggers the reaction.

 

[The Albatross]

@anthony I encourage you to step back and think about the damage you could do to someone like me with a comment like this one.

Ho, whoa. The idea that another person's opinion on a discussion thread can do damage is not his responsibility. It is your own. He is no more responsible for your reaction to his post, as the person was about "pity party". It is, after all in the discussion forum. His opinion is his opinion. How you think and feel about his opinion AND whether or not you perceive offense/damage/insult or injury....is reflective about your own mental/emotional landscape.

Mine as well. My thoughts, my perceptions, my feelings, my interpretations, my my my my my. That's exactly why I've been banging the drum about personal responsibility. It is irrational to think that the administrator of a mental health forum/community bears any responsibility for participating as an individual in a discussion. He and the mods... are after all, members as well as staff.

Another example, in my opinion, of choosing defensiveness by attempting to exercise restrictions on someone else, rather than respect that someone else has a different opinion that doesn't personally fit and ignore it. Attempting to censor the opinion of others is not conducive to a group or community environment. To be in recovery groups, I had to challenge my own misperceptions and learn how to listen, communicate, and respect all members in the group. My shrink called it learning how to "play well with others and not to run with scissors". Can I do this all the time? Nope, but I do try to consistently choose to examine before I claim that someone here or in life is "hurting or damaging or causing me anxiety". My default perception is not necessarily the only one... so I try to create a space to choose instead of react.

Anthony is not responsible for what your perceptions are individually as it is his opinion. Taking it as an opinion rather than interpreting it something like one of the 10 commandments is the more beneficial course. But then, some can... some can't... some may in the future, some never will.

“There is no safety in life—no guarantees that you will get through unscratched. This principle requires you to sacrifice the illusion of safety for the realization of what it means to be awake and alive.” ~ Carol Orsborn, 1992

 

[Rumors]

@FridayJones... I never meant this post to cause a rift between all of us. I LOVE your posts. You write with such eloquence and knowledge. I never said I hated anyone on this forum. I'm really sorry now I even posted this.

See, I grew up with a mom who, for whatever reason, manipulated conversation the same way. She would throw it out there for discussion and then when discussion ensues she would turn it around as an attack against her then throw out the inevitable "I shouldn't have brought it up" card. @joeylittle was spot on in his posts. I will go a bit further to say that not only are you self destructive, you border on being manipulative with your content. Why did you post this thread? So people would come on and tell you that it is ok to have a pity party and that you are spot on in that the forum is split into cliques that keep you from posting your true feelings for fear of retribution??? Sorry, I grew up with your personality and I know that you came here to get validation for your feelings and I happen to feel like it is ok to disagree and call a spade a spade. I won't coddle this behavior because I see it as part of the illness, NOT A CHARACTER FLAW, but nonetheless an illness that is part of a larger problem that you need to deal with. Now, I can't throw bricks at glass houses because I completely have issues, however I didn't post this thread but I am responding. I would urge you to take a really long, strong look in the mirror. Do you really believe that this forum is about cliques and these cliques respond negatively to threads of people who aren't in the clique? Or, perhaps you haven't clearly defined your needs in a post and you aren't capable of using this forum as a means to heal but instead a means to perpetuate poor choices.

@anthony, please, please tell me when I am having a pity party. I certainly know that I am capable, but I as well know it impedes my healing process. I have had some pretty crappy days and any thoughts on how to overcome that day is much appreciated because my goal is to spend my time here on earth enjoying as many days as I can and feeling sorry for myself and sad as few days as I can. I use this forum as a TOOL to enhance my skills to reach my goal of a happy life, not to allow grief to overcome me. I appreciate all advice, even the advice that pushes me to really look at my view on things and makes me question myself to the core. I don't see it as cliques or as an in crowd. This thread really pushes my buttons because there is an ideology expressed here that is really unhealthy and can only perpetuate poor choices. Not recognizing it and trying to sprinkle fairy dust on it merely make the sh*t sparkle, but it is still sh*t.

@Notsowild, I have read your posts. I think you are one of the coolest people ever. Your thinking here is unhealthy however. You can take my post however you would like, but I hope you take it with the intent in which it was intended, a wake up call. My mom was an incredible woman. I mean THE BOMB! I loved her very much, she died a few years ago. I watched her struggle my WHOLE life and die a unfulfilled person because she chose not to question her beliefs but instead live with an ideology that time and time again proved unhealthy. She missed out on a peace and happiness that would have been wonderful. Instead she constantly lived in chaos, never satisfied, never fulfilled. I BEG you to question yourself and your core beliefs here. You deserve better!!!! YOU DESERVE better!!! YOU DESERVE BETTER!!!!! Oh how I wish my mom would have had healthy thinking styles. I constantly went around questioning if I had done something wrong by answering her questions. Or, when she would say, "oh, I am just having a pity party" and I would say, "yes, you are and what can I do to help you" only to be met with retribution for agreeing with her to find out that she really wanted me to say, "OH NO, you aren't having a pity party, you are justified in crying for 3 days in bed." WTF??? Make good choices, view the reality of things if you can do nothing else. When my mom was making good choices, she was the coolest person to be around. The thing was, I never knew the things I was supposed to agree on or dispute so I lived feeling like I had caused her feeling bad about herself bc I didn't say the right thing at the right time. Little did I know that it wasn't my job... If you don't want me to agree that you are having a pity party, don't say it!!! If you need support and not criticism, say it!!! I can't read your mind. Thinking otherwise is a manipulation of the truth @Notsowild.

 

[scout86]

First, a disclaimer. My T isn't a fan of labels, he's a fan of "what ever seems to work at the time". I 'm not a fan of labels either and think that a lot of the "lines" that get drawn are really just artificial constructs that start out as useful and can take on a life of their own. I haven't studied all these methods and have a hard time keeping "CBT" and "DBT" straight. Not particularly interested in all that. I claim no expertise and have no opinion, other than what I just said.

I suspect @DeathRay is quite capable of sticking up for themselves BUT. The comment by @anthony that was being objected to there had to do with "ridiculous insinuations". He IS, indeed, entitled to have his opinion and express it. And, anyone reading it IS responsible for their own reactions. DeathRay can probably handle that remark just fine. I could too. But, MY OPINION is that it was harsher than necessary and kind of a cheap shot. It's also my opinion that not everyone is equally capable of handling that sort of thing. Personally, when I make a comment here, my intent is to be helpful and provide something positive. To me, it seems that the way to do that is consider who you're talking to and how they will be receive the information you're trying to convey. I don't deal with everyone the same way, because they aren't the same. I don't want to be insulting or rude to anyone because I see no purpose in it. I took that to be the point of DeathRay's admonition. I think it's a good and valid point for anyone who's functioning well enough to consider it.

“There is no safety in life—no guarantees that you will get through unscratched. This principle requires you to sacrifice the illusion of safety for the realization of what it means to be awake and alive.” ~ Carol Orsborn, 1992

This is true and I totally agree with it. I don't, however, think it's a license to add to the general level of unsafety just because you can.

Pretty much any "ok" idea can be carried to an extreme where it's not so ok. It's possible to do that with the idea that one is merely a poor helpless victim who needs to be rescued. It's also possible to do that with "this is reality, suck it up". There is truth in both notions and the potential for unnecessary harm in both extremes.

 

[scout86]

@Rumors , I'd like that more than once, if I could! (Did we grow up in the same house? Except that I honestly didn't and don't love my mother.)

 

[Rumors]

@scout86. My mom was pretty cool at times, and pretty sick at times too. I think I have just been able to find some peace with the dichotomy and realize I don't want to carry on the behavior for another generation. It stops here, but it has required me to deal with some ugly about myself that I clearly didn't like. I am certainly not anywhere near the end of my journey, however I have opened my heart and mind to accepting that I have some flaws and all I can do is face them and try and fix them. I also have some pretty major coolness and when I can and it is appropriate I focus on that stuff. I get to do some pretty awesome stuff with some pretty cool people and it makes me incredibly thankful for the work I have done and where I have come. My mom was never able to get to that point therefore she never fully enjoyed the awesomeness that she was a part of. I will never forget, we were on a private plane headed home from Vegas, it was dusk and the pilot asked if we wanted to fly over the Grand Canyon. Of course, I said yes. I swear if you could ever touch the face of God it looked like this. There was the most gorgeous orange hue in the sky with a purple type glow coming from the darkness. It was the most incredible thing I have ever seen and I thought to myself, "when I am 90 I will remember what this looked like." My mom and dad were with me, I looked across at my mom who was sitting in the seat in front of me and she was completely blank. She hadn't really been looking at this beautiful scene, but instead I could see this preoccupied look on her face. I said, "mom, are you seeing this??? I mean this is fabulous... I am in awe." She quickly replied, "no, did you do this to appease me... I didn't ask you to fly around the Grand Canyon..." Now, someone who can't appreciate first this kickass private flight we are on with a full service staff, but even more this incredible scene that was laid out in front of us to view and realize it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to see something like this is really eff'd up!!! It was like a lightbulb went on for me at that moment and I began seeing things differently. I was given two gifts that evening, one was viewing the Grand Canyon at dusk from 10,000 feet and the other was viewing what my life would look like in 30 years if I didn't make some changes. I have since flown that same flight and always build in my trip a little zoom around the rim. Every time I do, it is just like I am seeing it for the first time again. I am overcome with emotion and grateful for both lessons I learned...

 

[scout86]

She quickly replied, "no, did you do this to appease me... I didn't ask you to fly around the Grand Canyon...

My first reaction to that was to laugh, because it's kind of a classic. If I did empathy a little better, my first reaction might have been that it's sad, because it's that too. I'm glad you got BOTH parts of that experience. There may be something cool about my mom too. I'd like to think that there's "coolness" in everyone. I haven't had the desire to get close enough to look for it.

 

[Rumors]

I kind of really wanted to say, "uh no, it isn't always all about you... I wanted to fly around the rim..." I realized there was no point bc if she couldn't recognize the beauty in what we were witnessing, no way would my response make any sizable difference. I felt sorry for her and was mad at her all in the same breath. I was then able to put a lot of my moms issues at arms length and it was probably then, when I didn't own her problems, I saw her coolness more. I was also able to recognize the not so cool things better and make a more informed decision about how involved I needed/wanted to be. my family dynamic was always such that she became unstable and I fixed it for everyone. The reverse could be said as well, I became unstable and she fixed it for everyone. It was really unhealthy!!! LOL!!! When I started just owning my own baggage, I realized I had some serious unpacking to do and I didn't need to be helping anyone else for a long while!!! @scout86 when your mom no longer holds any power over your emotions, you will see her in a very different light. That doesn't mean she can't push your buttons, but it does mean that when she does you will walk away thinking, "how sad for her...but she can make some killer chocolate chip cookies". ;)

 

[Valentino]

I wonder if part of the miscommunication is simply due to differences of experiential style??

1) Types with overactive thinking that leads to emotional chaos and triggers. (Thoughts first, emotions second)
2) Emotional sensitive types, who easily get emotionally overwhelmed, and then thoughts are used to make sense of things. (Emotions first, thoughts second)

For the over-active thinkers, CBT and aggressive strategies to slow down and limit thinking can work quite well with controlling emotional state.

But for emotionally sensitive types, using aggression towards thoughts doesn't work as well. It can also be counter-productive because of a natural defensiveness that comes in the face of aggression, and focusing too much on thoughts creates additional distance from emotions, adding more confusion.

Unfortunately, emotionally sensitive types can have difficulty communicating the extent of their emotional inner world, in a way that is understandable to less sensitive types, but at the same time also in a way that they can feel heard and seen. There are many ways to fail, which can lead to social exclusion or judgement. If emotions are shared too intensely, it can unintentionally trigger other's unresolved wounds and there's an automatic defensive reaction, or if the emotional experience isn't described enough, others can't get it, then feelings of isolation and failure increase.

It can come from a very vulnerable place, when an emotionally sensitive person attempts to communicate and connect. Unfortunately that vulnerability is often not recognized or honored.

“We habitually erect a barrier called blame that keeps us from communicating genuinely with others, and we fortify it with our concepts of who's right and who's wrong. We do that with the people who are closest to us and we do it with political systems, with all kinds of things that we don't like about our associates or our society.
It is a very common, ancient, well-perfected device for trying to feel better. Blame others....Blaming is a way to protect your heart, trying to protect what is soft and open and tender in yourself. Rather than own that pain, we scramble to find some comfortable ground.” Pema Chödrön