How do you be honest and assertive and not manipulative?

[Gs172003]

So there's never anything you do, hoping to get a particular response from someone else?

I will do things for other people hoping that they will enjoy it. There are times that I hope my husband will do things for me but I let him know what I want I don't make him guess. I don't do things expecting a response in return if that's what you mean. At least not on purpose

 

[Gs172003]

For example, a man I work with was homeless under no fault of his own. He managed to get a home with his brother. He had no toys for his kids so I gave him a ride on train. I didn't expect anything. Not a thing. I just wanted his kids to be happy.

 

[scout86]

Maybe you don't ever 'manipulate' people. His point was that it's not necessarily a bad thing. I had kind of a nearly phobic reaction to his use of the word, for reasons of my own.

The point he was trying to make is that a lot of human interaction is actually some version of a manipulation. If I want someone to like me, I might tell them a joke I think will make them laugh, hoping to generate positive feelings and encourage a positive relationship. Doesn't mean I'm planning to take advantage of them, just that people tend to respond positively to some things and negatively to others so, if you want a particular outcome, you might want to take an appropriate approach. It still meets the definition of 'manipulation' my T was using.

 

[Gs172003]

Maybe you don't ever 'manipulate' people. His point was that it's not necessarily a bad thing. I had ki...

I don't like that word. There has to be a better word than "manipulate" for something as harmless as a joke. How about " incite" laughter.

As far as the definition....
ma·nip·u·late
məˈnipyəˌlāt/
verb

1. 1.
   handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner.
   "he manipulated the dials of the set"
   synonyms: Link Removed, Link Removed; More
   
   
2. 2.
   control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
   "the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group"
   synonyms: Link Removed, Link Removed, use/turn to one's advantage, Link Removed, Link Removed,Link Removed, Link Removed, Link Removed, Link Removed;
   twist someone around one's little finger
   "the government tried to manipulate the situation"

 

[scout86]

I hope we're not getting too far off topic here!

I tend not to like the word as well. And I think that's why my T brought it up. His point really WAS that it's not always bad. When it comes right down to it, he manipulates me all the time. He sets things up so I see them from a different perspective. Not with evil intent, but because he thinks it would be useful for me. And he's generally correct about that. At the same time, he doesn't force me to see what he's thinking I need to see, he's setting it up (manipulating) so I either see it for myself or I don't. If I don't, he usually takes another shot at it down the road. At least if he thinks it's important.

It seems like, if you twist yourself around too much trying to avoid 'manipulating' people, you might make some interactions more complicated than they need to be. I think @Ragdoll Circus nailed it when she mentioned motivation and respect.

 

[user27357]

There was a time when I had a particular co-worker that truly was out to destroy my career (he eventually committed suicide, I guess he had to destroy something). I was talking to a counselor about him and my work situation and she gave me all kinds of tactics I could use to put him in his place, shame him, send him home from work feeling as bad about life as I did every night.

On the drive home, I decided to never see that counselor again. She was manipulating him through me, I was being taught manipulation by a master manipulator. I wanted nothing to do with it, it stunk and I felt dirty for having sat in session and soaked it up.

Looking back. ignoring his efforts to get me fired was a reasonable choice but I didn't really ignore it, I just glossed over it and went about my job that I kept and still have some 12 years after his death. It still made me angry and ate away at my trust for my employer and basically all people eventually, i just swallowed it and kept it inside where it still lives on.

The true and honest thing to do would have been to walk to our HR department and sat down in front of a desk and refused to leave unless it was to load my tools and go home never to return or to go back to a workplace where his type of behavior would not be tolerated.

In the end, would he have learned a lesson and maybe still be alive? Would I have been fired and found work in a place that didn't need to be reminded that his type of behavior is illegal in the workplace? Would we both have returned to work and instead of committing the crime of suicide would he have turned it into murder/suicide? What if I had followed my so called therapists advice and played his games with him- would we both have been fired and both committed suicide?

It is hard to know where the benefits of honesty stop, where a little manipulation can be a good survival skill, where glossing over the actions of unreasonable people (suffering fools) is a good skill to employ, where total honesty and strict adherence to a high standard is the right and easiest road to travel.

damn human interplay.

If possible, I find the best thing to do when confronted with a dilemma like this with a person like this is to turn and walk away slow. I do a lot of slow walking and not much talking

 

[scout86]

On the drive home, I decided to never see that counselor again.

That seems like a really good choice! There has to be better ways to deal with situations like that than setting out to do to the other person what they're doing to you. And I really have to wonder about a 'counselor' who would take that approach.

But it surprises me that the guy killed himself. My experience with the people who set out to sabotage other people has more been that they have WAY too high an opinion of themselves to do something like that.

@Ms Spock , it's occurred to me that we've skipped over the part of the question about how to be honest and assertive. That IS hard. Especially when your experience has been that there's a huge price to be paid. (I'm not always very good at it either.) The best thing I can think of to suggest is to start with someone who seems safe and who knows what you're doing. And then actually practice. Practice saying the words and receiving the responses. I've found this forum to be a good place to practice too. (And you seem pretty honest and assertive around here. Isn't that the case?)

 

[Gs172003]

That seems like a really good choice! There has to be better ways to deal with situations like that tha...

To me being honest and assertive simply means say what you mean and mean what you say...but you don't have to be nasty about it. Does that make sense?
Learn the difference between assertive and aggressive.

 

[user27357]

But it surprises me that the guy killed himself. My experience with the people who set out to sabotage other people has more been that they have WAY too high an opinion of themselves to do something like that.

yeah, after years of being an ass he was given an early retirement option, took it, had a heart problem almost immediately and then got a mouth cancer of some kind and killed himself after seeing the doctor and getting the news. A weak and feable man with a weak and feable mind that definitely had a high opinion of himself in relation to others, especially those that he could openly and loudly criticise without fear of reprisal (me, in the work place) He had an amazingly high opinion of himself, once telling us all that he had a higher IQ than Einstein according to a test he had been given in the army. His high school degree was worth more than my college degree because of the dumbing down of america, computers (that he never learned to use) were the reason anything that went wrong went wrong etc. I think he was psychotic but undiagnosed.

Back to learning about how we handle being assertive with people that desperately need it.............or don't

 

[The Albatross]

"How Do You Be Honest And Assertive And Not Manipulative?" Be your own authentic self, damning the torpedoes or flack from others. My opinion, being as good as anyone else's might not make me "right" or "popular" but it makes me an individual in a pool of other individuals, in a world of many pools of individuals and I can live with that.

 

[Friday]

I didn't expect anything. Not a thing.

The trick to finding out where you're manipulative is to look for where you DO want something to happen.

As an example, I am currently manipulating my son like crazy.

I could just be honest & direct; "Get off the computer. Go outside. Get healthy. Lose weight. Do better in school. Feel better about yourself."

I'm not. Instead I am manipulating the situation so that;
- he has active fun things in his life to do.
- he has people in his life who encouraging, inspirational, fun, grounded, healthy
- he has limited amounts of time to be on the computer.
- he has healthy food around
- etc.

I am laying the path of least resistance, building up routines and patterns for him, so that the natural course for his life to take? Is where I want it to. That's pure manipulation.

Could he pick a different path? Yep. His life is his own. But as a parent & a teacher? The way I was instructed is that it is not the failure of the student, but the failure of the teacher, for not adequately preparing them. There are ways to set someone up for success (manipulation) and ways to set them up for failure (manipulation). This doesn't mean that I'm ignoring what he wants. I am, however, passing it through the filter of what I want. Signing a sports-kid up for sports is no different than signing a drama-kid up for drama classes. Both are healthy / active / social activities. He gets what he wants. (Sports, or drama). I get what I want (him involved in a healthy/active/social activity). Gradually increasing levels of responsibility? Another manipulation. Building self-confidence? Another manipulation. Creating a "safe" feeling environment? Another manipulation. Teaching empathy? Another manipulation. Deliberately cheering them up when they've had a bad day? Another manipulation, as well as laying the foundation for them to be able to self soothe. I could go on all day. For real. Because I manipulate the hell out of my kid. And I am having to SUPER-manipulate him at present, because he's got an abusive schmuck for a father who keeps tearing him down every chance he gets.

Raising children is clearly a long-term thing. If you don't have kids, or don't manipulate them at all -which I concede is possible, although I'm not sure how- a shorter term thing could be dressing up. Or down. In any way altering your appearance in order to manipulate the opinions of others. Any way you do something in order to "blend in" or "stand out" or "look respectable" is an attempt at manipulation. This is a super common one, as most people want to "look respectable" in court, or "look pretty" on a date, or "be taken seriously" at a job interview. Shrug.

Look at where you care about the outcome. And the steps you take to ensure at outcome to the best of your ability. Those steps? Are usually some form of manipulation. Even "I wanted him to be happy, so I gave him a train ride." = (an attempt) to manipulate someone else's emotions.

Manipulation really isn't all bad.

But then, very little is, IMO.

Or as a girlfriend of mine (attorney, human rights) who was taking a summer job as a waitress said after her mouth watering description of today's special -after the manager said that was the best spiel he'd ever heard / hired on the spot- said;

"I convince people not to kill others, for a living. I think I can sell the fish."

<ETA> I'm sorry for all the words. I can usually concise things up. Not so much, at the moment. :wtf:

 

[Friday]

Bottom Line Up Front

How to be honest and assertive without manipulation? (My thoughts in progress)
- I'm not invested in the outcome
- I'm not responsible for the outcome


@Ms Spock

The reason I like teaching college kids better than I like teaching little kids is that I have to use virtually no manipulation. Some? Yes. (Especially in the beginning of the quarter. I do not like bored people, so I cheerfully encourage people to skip class, as an example. They were rigorous courses, but those who felt they could self study? We're very very welcome to. That way those of us who were left could thrash out the mysteries of the universe in peace & excitement.) But in general I can just say "Yo. Learn this." And they do.

Manipulation isn't a natural thing, for me. It expends a TON of energy. And I have to go about it very deliberately. Can I do it? Yes. Under certain narrow limitations, beyond which I just cannot make myself care enough. I just can't. I have tried. I have failed. I like manipulating little kids. I like seeing their eyes light up, and their faces get all serious, and that "click"! as information suddenly makes sense, and their chests swell with pride, and their self confidence grows, and... I just love it. It's still effing exhausting for me. But the trade off is worth it. I actually care enough to expend the energy.

When teaching little kids? (Highschool & below) I spend hours and hours and hours on my lesson plans. How do I teach to all the senses / all learning styles? How can I make this fun & interesting? How can I set up B so that it's a natural extension of A? How can I, how can I, how can I, how can I???? Mechanics minded kids, artsy kids, drama kids, shy kids, dreamy kids, sports kids... How can I light THEIR fire? Every single durn unit is this multilayered, multifaceted, battle plan. With multiple objectives. And contingencies. And built in flexibility. And all of it nailed together thrashed out, nailed back together, torn down... Several times. So that by the time I kick things off? I'm one magic school bus short of Ms.Frizzle :p And then, like battle plans, things go sideways... And we improvise & adapt on the fly.

Almost no manipulation
Massive manipulation

I have a lot more fun with the little kids. But I actually have energy and a life with college kids.

In both cases, however? I'm still being honest and assertive.

So to reverse engineer a bit... What's the big difference between those 2? My role, really. How much responsibility I'm taking on. Little kids, it's about 'lighting the fire, not filling the pail', IMO. HOW to do that? Is probably 90% of my job. And At least 82% manipulation. College kids? They already know how to learn. I don't have to teach how. They've chosen this course for a reason. I don't have to give them a reason (aka relate it or make it relavent). If the *majority* of a college course bombs a test? Yeah. That's probably my fault. But I'm not responsible for an individual bombing a test. Little kids? I am responsible for each individual. I'm not responsible for individuals in college, they're responsible for themselves. The responsibility is their own. The outcome of the course is their own. They're adults. Young ones, usually, but still adults. And adults can take care of themselves. Kids? I'm responsible for taking care of them. Each and every single one. In all ways. My kids. My responsibility. Soooooo....

How to be honest and assertive without manipulation?
- I'm not invested in the outcome
- I'm not responsible for the outcome

***

Again, OMG. So sorry for all the words. :banghead: