Relationship Toxicity, Manipulation, Narcissism... Let's Have A Chat.

[caligirl03]

All I can say is we teach people how to treat us. You have more power in this situation than you realize.

 

[heyheyhey]

@heyheyhey what you're saying is precisely the conflict that drives me nuts. She...

I don't know her and I don't like to make sweeping statements or assumptions - but I feel like if I can help it, so can she. I've been through abuse and I wouldn't put anyone through that and I don't want any of you to feel like this is just a byproduct of PTSD when it isn't... like you said everyone has a choice.

 

[heyheyhey]

Um, I am going to have to disagree with that. I am here on this board because my spouse, who did not...

Thanks @shimmerz - you eloquently summed up what I was trying to say!! My boyfriend has seen me waking up with panic attacks, hold me as I shook, stayed with me in the ambulance when I thought I was dying from a panic attack - but never, no matter how bad and painful it was for me, have I ever abused him. If we can make that choice, so can anyone.

 

[Sighs]

heyheyhey - I'm wanting to tread carefully here because I do not want you to feel in any way disrespected but I completely utterly disagree with what you are saying. How can you possibly know what another sufferer can and cannot help?
Each sufferer is an individual, with their own innate personality traits, then add to that life experiences, in my vet's case military training, multiple deployments, numerous head injuries, blast injuries and combat PTSD. Each sufferer's trauma is different.

I just don't find it helpful in the slightest to say "oh well I have PTSD and I have never lashed out". My vet could say "oh well I have PTSD and I have never isolated". So what? Different people are going to have different symptoms. You acknowledge that you isolate and that is hurtful to your SO. Why can't you choose not to isolate? You know you are hurting your SO but you do it anyway. So if you think my vet can choose not tolash out why can't you choose not to isolate?

I'm not attacking you here - I'm asking a genuine question. You're on a supporters forum so help us understand. Why is it you say sufferers can choose not to hurt their SO by lashing out but you can't choose not to hurt your SO by isolating?

 

[heyheyhey]

I think what you're describing is PTSD in an aware person that is going through treatment.

My SO is...

Eh, sorry but no one's stress response is too f*cked up to do that. I've been there too when my PTSD has been unmanaged. Mine was delayed onset so i had no idea what was happening to me when it kicked in - I thought I was going crazy, I was terrified. I had the rage, I had the terror, I had the high-stress waking nightmare and still have some of these to various degrees - my 'stress response', pain, panic, fear, rage was through the roof but I never abused my boyfriend. I'd never abuse anyone. Why? Because I have empathy and I have a level of behaviour for myself, I would never abuse anyone no matter how I feel.

Yes, he 'can't' stop himself from belittling and insulting you because that's his level of morality, that's what he thinks is acceptable. See if it is about control - how come he does choose to stop at strangling you (at the moment)?

Anyone that says they have no control over being cruel to you is talking utter shit. It's always a choice and it always fits into what they think it acceptable. Look at this way, if someone were a cheater - and they put it down to them not being able to control their 'urges', if you looked at that situation carefully then you'd see that it's not JUST about the 'urges' they have - someone has the urge but they also have the moral framework that leads them to think that that kind of behaviour is okay.

Why do you think he's not capable of the choice not to harm people he loves? Why isn't he? Shouldn't he be held to that standard? Aren't you worth that? I say that with compassion, not judgement. Also, if his stress response is out of control then does he have equal issues with abusing everyone he meets? Stranger or not? Or just you or people close to him? Surely if it were an 'out of control thing' then he'd be abusing everyone.

This is abuse, it' wrong and it's a choice.

This article contains quotes that are also relevant.

Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

I'm going to drop it, but you can be certain that none of this crap is PTSD. If it were then everyone with a TBI and PTSD would be doing it and we aren't. Managed or unmanaged (as my PTSD has been).

 

[heyheyhey]

heyheyhey - I'm wanting to tread carefully here because I do not want you to feel in any way disrespected...

I'm only saying this because I don't want anyone to suffer abuse because they think it's just an understandable by-product of PTSD.

In the case of isolating, it's more that if my partner takes it personally then it hurts him - so I communicate with him and let him know I am having a hard time and then he understands. But I choose to not be cruel. That to me is an empathy thing, how can I rage and insult and belittle my lovely partner - i could never look at someone and see the pain or fear in their eyes, or afterwards see how it has hurt them and then carry on because i wouldn't want to hurt someone. That to me is choosing.

You know, if someone is yelling at you and getting frustrated and whatever, maybe that's not abuse but if it's cruel things and someone is really hurting you then please guys think about yourselves and how this is effecting you. I'm saying this because I don't think anyone should have to go through abuse and it upsets me that anyone would have to. I have my PTSD from abuse of various kinds and it really breaks my heart that anyone would have to go through this - so I am not saying for sure it is that, I don't know, but i am just saying please with everything in you just at least research it, look into it - consider it.

You matter too.

 

[heyheyhey]

I am leaving the conversation now, because I'm raw from EMDR and I understand that this is a sensitive topic and you are all fighting for and supporting people you love and care about. I'm sorry if this has made you feel in anyway bad, but I fought to say it with the best intentions and I stand by just trying to make you guys consider from the other side - that *maybe* *possibly* it's not the PTSD. And educate yourself on abusers and their tactics just so that you can be SURE that it's not.

I don't mean to offend any of you or come across as arrogant, just cruelty is the one thing that I really struggle to tolerate or feel is okay in any scenario. I genuinely say this because I really care that you guys are safe and that no one is harming or abusing you. I'm only arguing this because very often with abuse there is an idea that it is out of their control, when actually it is choice. So all I am saying, is that yes you could be right that maybe this is out of control - but you know I used to think that the abusers I know could also improve with the right help and they didn't they got worse and it's left me shattered in so many ways and I will always warn people and fight the corner on this, because it's what I would have wished someone had done for me.

 

[shimmerz]

@Sighs I spent three years watching unacceptable verbal assault turn into rage and violence. It was always someone else's or something else's fault. Never the fault of my ex. Nothing was ever his fault. Mine, the stepkids, my kids, the world, the universe.

It escalates and when one is the victim so many times it is cranked up just enough that we barely notice how bad it has gotten. I would so hate to see the kind hearted, loving, empathic people who are supporters to those with PTSD end up with PTSD themselves because the abuser was given a 'get out of jail free' card called PTSD.

I myself don't find this type of thought pattern on the part of the supporter disrespectful at all. I find it tragic and so wish that those of you who are subjected to this type of behaviour understand that this is a characteristic, not a disorder.

 

[heyheyhey]

Also, I will leave saying that I standby my original view that I don't believe PTSD is the cause and origin of abusive behaviour. The below article sums up what I am getting at.

Does Mental Illness Cause Abuse? – www.loveisrespect.org

Moderator edit to remove copy-paste. Please see: Administrative - Copying And Pasting Articles: Guidelines

 

[heyheyhey]

@Sighs I spent three years watching unacceptable verbal assault turn into rage and...

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I have my PTSD from abuse and also don't to see anyone suffer in that way and think that it's because they can't control it, that is just so upsetting to me. Let them take the full responsibility for it.

 

[Snowflakes]

@caligirl03 @heyheyhey I believe you both are right. Perhaps this is why her therapist keeps telling me to "get out of my box." I live each day trying not to do or say anything that will set her off and in the process I lose a little piece of myself each day. Getting out of my box and holding my ground, while sometimes appears counter-intuitive to me, may be exactly what forces her to treat me like she treats the rest of the world. Thank you both for the insight.

 

[Sighs]

Sigh!

Yes, my vet does lash out at others - friends, family and strangers. Its the main reason why he can't work.

I come back to my initial question - why is it not a choice to emotionally abuse your partner by withdrawing / isolating from them? But it is apparently a choice to verbally abuse your partner by lashing out? (Don't fool yourself that your partner doesn't experience it as emotional abuse - I assure you that they do!)

I guess what I am getting at here is this - is it helpful to label this abuse? Or is more helpful to label it as an unacceptable coping mechanism and work together to change it?

I do understand that not everyone with PTSD behaves like this. But some do.