I feel like my issues are too complex to recover from

[Deleted member 39476]

I finally had to admit that I didn't know my ass from my elbow in this situation. In fact, I was being a self-righteous, ignorant little brat with a whole lot of hubris to believe I was the only person on the planet who couldn't be helped. (The self-compassion came later, but the anger I felt for myself in that moment was an engine.)

The irony is that I'm aware of this and I have been the whole time. Using intellectualization as a defense to avoid feeling, fighting the process. That's a huge part of the catch 22 I feel stuck in, it's not as much that my mental illness itself is untreatable, but the combination of my personality, my defense mechanisms, my internal turmoil, my level of dysfunction, all things considered, is insanely challenging to treat.

Not 'worldview'. Science. You really need to learn more about how the brain works.

Whatever happened in the past, where you felt almost instantly better - the filling of the void that you are talking about, where you got 10 time more functional almost immediately...what brought that about? (if you wrote about it already, just quote it for me).

I understand how this works, I also understand that it is not worth it to me. I want to be at least mostly normal and mostly healthy, when you are mostly normal you don't have to try to do extremely basic tasks, you don't even have to tolerate doing them, you enjoy doing them. Trying to build up to doing them at a super low functionality has absolutely no value to me, and almost all of the things I would be building myself up to doing are themselves totally without value if doing them for the wrong reasons. To me attempting that strategy is the same as giving up hope that I can make an actual recovery, and if that's going down then I definitely am not interested.

Void was filled by a girlfriend. Filled by (perceived) love. That's how I know I don't need to grind this out like people suggest, I know it can be filled in a healthy way, at least in theory.

Are you doing parts work outside of therapy?

I used to, but ever since my internal dialogue switched from me and my parts, to me and an apparent monster, all dialogue outside of therapy died.

There is a possibility of something physical going on. Overactive Thyroid can make it impossible to relax, sleep, or breathe slowly. I am not sure about how low or high testosterone levels can affect you. Stress can cause overactive natural steroid responses (adrenal problems).

I am apparently in really solid physical health. To be honest I'm really surprised how good my physical health is given how bad my mental health is. No hair falling out, no acne, systems working fine. Even my immune system is doing pretty great, I haven't gotten sick in a long time even though everyone around me has.

But this is magical thinking, if you don't put in effort to learn how to basically live a normal life while at an extremely low functionality then you are consigning yourself to a life of surfing the Internet and doing very little indeed.

As long as I am sick, yes I am basically accepting that as my life. The difference in functionality between me now and me when I'm happy is so enormously different that I will be more successful if I literally don't do anything productive for two straight years and then pick up then, then if I were to just try and grind it out and never pick up. Because of that, I'm basically living life as if I'm just sick indefinitely. If someone is temporarily sick, say the flu, you don't tell them to try and pull through, you let them sit it out until they are better. If someone is permanently sick, i.e. a serious disability, you don't tell them to try and pull through and live like a normal person, you adjust expectations accordingly. I don't see how this is any different.

 

[ms spock]

Elderly family member gets flu - rushed them to hospital, if they hadn't been rushed to hospital they would have died. So medical treatment is advised in these situations. So no, definitely not advising people to sit out a flu that potentially will kill them. If I had done that my Father in Law would now be dead.

There are many ways to be proactive about preventing flu, be active about managing your flu, and there are many ways to minimise the effects of flu on yourself and the others around.

You can get vaccinated. (In Australia, currently there are over 1,000 less deaths per year due to flu vaccinations). Vaccinations also reduce the number of hospital visits, days where you are unable to participate in your communities, and your days off school and work. So proactively getting a flu vaccination can improve the quality of your life.

Hygiene - practising hygiene, modelling good hygiene can prevent the transmission of flu to yourself and to other people. If you are sick then you need to look at hygiene practises in your families, communities, schools and businesses in order to work out what went wrong and how to address the situation now, and how to be proactive in the future. Waiting it out can actually mean you unwittingly spread the flu. Action needs to be taken. Decisions need to be made.

Actively resting is good for flu. So you would need to take medication as prescribed by an individual. You might need to go to the hospital. You might need to consider your options and make some steps in managing your flu, and checking if you are an at risk individual. For instance you might need to take antiviral drugs for your flu, if you doctor prescribes them, as antivirals can make the flu illness milder and shorten the time you are sick significantly.

Actively seeking treatment from a flu cannot only prevent hospitalization and sometimes death, but also it can lead to other such illnesses such as pneumonia, bronchitis, sinus infections, ear infections and a myriad of other flu-related complications. D

I would definitely not tell vulnerable people such as the Elderly, the very young, the immunocompromised, pregnant women, the homeless, those with poor mental health (we have a 20 year less life expectancy in Australia) and those with other chronic illnesses to wait the flu out. Medical assistance and treatment can often be required before things get to a critical stage. In our last flu season the hospitals were full of people with flu and flu complications. People at High Risk of Developing Flu–Related Complications | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC

Read your local Centers for Disease control on "CDC Says “Take 3” Actions to Fight the Flu"
Link Removed Each of the three sections has eight or more suggestions for proactively or actively dealing with the flu.

 

[Elef]

I want to be at least mostly normal and mostly healthy, when you are mostly normal you don't have to try to do extremely basic tasks, you don't even have to tolerate doing them, you enjoy doing them. Trying to build up to doing them at a super low functionality has absolutely no value to me, and almost all of the things I would be building myself up to doing are themselves totally without value if doing them for the wrong reasons. To me attempting that strategy is the same as giving up hope that I can make an actual recovery, and if that's going down then I definitely am not interested.

But you're not normal...according to you you are extremely unwell...so why wouldn't you have to build up to normality? That's called recovery. What is it you want exactly? To click your fingers and suddenly become "normal"? Are you saying you refuse to work toward recovery? I'm genuinely confused (I haven't read every single post so maybe I missed it).

Void was filled by a girlfriend. Filled by (perceived) love. That's how I know I don't need to grind this out like people suggest, I know it can be filled in a healthy way, at least in theory.

Hang on. Are you extremely mentally unwell? or are you lonely and in need of a girlfriend? Because this sentence suggests the latter.

 

[Hojay]

The irony is that I'm aware of this and I have been the whole time. Using intellectualization as a defense to avoid feeling, fighting the process.

Ah yes, could have come straight from my own mouth. "What you think I don't know this, lady? I've thought of it all, considered it all, and have deemed it all unsolvable." Well, I don't blame you. If someone had tried to talk sense into me back then I'd have reacted the same way. It wasn't until years later, when I'd finally had some "real" insight, that I looked back, saw the many opportunities I'd missed, the life I didn't live, the stories I wouldn't have to tell, that I cringed at my own blindness, arrogance, and hubris. Because it wasn't so much that I was exceptionally smart or had an exceptional level of insight about myself, the psyche, and life. I was just exceptionally afraid. Yes, more afraid than other people. That was the only thing that set me apart really. Not my intellect or talent for "seeing through it all." I was just a run-of-the-mill chicken shit whose intellect had an incredible capacity to absorb, analyze, and synthesize, with one detrimental flaw: preventing real insight.

Like marriage, childbirth, or going to the moon, I think this is one of those things you won't believe or understand until you've arrived there yourself. We can talk at you until we're blue in the face, you're going to have to live a little bit more life until you've arrive there on your own. Let's hope it doesn't happen to you until you're middle-aged and have gone through the 10th relationship that was a band-aid on a gaping wound. Let's hope you get there when the doors haven't all closed on you.

That's a huge part of the catch 22 I feel stuck in

Catch 22 is a misnomer here. It's only a Catch 22 when the elements regulating the outcome are outside of your control. I think you like to believe that they are.

 

[Neverthesame]

when you are mostly normal you don't have to try to do extremely basic tasks, you don't even have to tolerate doing them, you enjoy doing them.

I don't know about you, but I have never enjoyed scrubbing my toilet. Or filing my taxes, vacuuming, dusting, going to the grocery store in -30°C, ect, ect.
But I do it anyway because it needs to get done. There is no magic toilet fairy.

Void was filled by a girlfriend. Filled by (perceived) love. That's how I know I don't need to grind this out like people suggest, I know it can be filled in a healthy way, at least in theory.

I hope your therapist disagrees with this. There is nothing healthy about a co-dependant relationship.

Even my immune system is doing pretty great, I haven't gotten sick in a long time even though everyone around me has.

When all you do is sit around all day, you aren't going to have much direct contact with anyone else. You can't catch a flu you weren't exposed to.

The difference in functionality between me now and me when I'm happy is so enormously different

Yeah, probably.

I will be more successful if I literally don't do anything productive for two straight years and then pick up then, then if I were to just try and grind it out and never pick up.

How can you be productive by deliberately avoiding the job?

How do you believe it's going to magically get better on it's own?

Doing the grind is not going to break your latent coping skills.
What if by doing the grind, you could shave a year off the expected two years of waiting to get better.
Would it be worth it then?

If someone is temporarily sick, say the flu, you don't tell them to try and pull through, you let them sit it out until they are better.

Chicken soup, Tylenol, fluids and rest. Is a course of treatment.
The body is burning way more calories when fighting the infection. The soup contains much needed nutrition.

Tylenol helps keep the fever down, as well as providing some pain control for the muscle cramps that accompany a fever.
If a fever gets too hot, brain damage and organ failure is a very real danger.

You know how a dangerous fever is treated when standard medicine is not effective?
Different drugs? Nope.
Tossed into a tub full of ice water. Apparently it feels like being set on fire. But it works. Still more pleasant than systemic organ failure.

Fluids, obviously are for dehydration. It's very important to remain hydrated. The lymphatic system doesn't work very efficiently when dehydrated, slowing the delivery of the specially designed antibodies to the site of infection. The longer the infection is active in your body, the greater the risk of contracting a secondary infection such as bronchitis or pneumonia. Secondary infections are the reason why so many people used to die from the flu prior to the discovery of penicillin.

The body uses water to regulate our temperature. Being dehydrated increases the risk of developing an out of control fever.

If someone is permanently sick, i.e. a serious disability, you don't tell them to try and pull through and live like a normal person, you adjust expectations accordingly. I don't see how this is any different

Really? Do you actually feel disabled people have no ability or desire to do anything themselves, so we should prop them up the living room like a houseplant, periodically giving them food and water? Because if they can't do everything, they should therefore do nothing?

I get the feeling you haven't spent much time with disabled people, have you?

 

[EveHarrington]

I love how we all love a good argument. That’s a big reason why this thread is now 8 pages long!

Seriously OP, why is it that you feel like you know better than everyone who is older, been there, and further healed than you are? Do you REALLY think that you are unique? (You’re not. Maybe this is young person snowflake syndrome?) Do you really think we are all clueless? (No, this is not a conspiracy.)

The truth is that until you want to heal, you’re not going to heal. And even when you want to heal, you may have to hit this disorder from 567 different angles before you find something that works.

I have a feeling you want an easy solution, a quick fix. Well, in the world of ptsd, this doesn’t exist.

Why did you quit when the parts work got hard? KEEP GOING! I have a bitch of a protector part that took TWO MONTHS just to back down and my work with her is far from over. And I’m told I’m one of the lucky ones whose parts listen to me fairly quickly. Maybe read up on all the parts work that others here are doing? It’s not easy. More than one of us wants to axe murder a part. (Can’t do that!) Point being, you’ve gotta push through. The only way out is through.....so either start living your life the way it is, or PUSH THROUGH!

 

[Fiadh]

There have been so many helpful responses for you on this thread and you appear to find arguments or try and pick apart what others are saying as though they have no experience. They do. And it's up to you whether you listen or not. But they're right that nothing is going to get better on its own, but that is your choice, and the more people seem to be telling you of these different options the more you resist- amazingly you know everything it seems. But there seems no point in putting forward a case to someone who knows what is right for them so concretely- you've got it sorted hey! So sorted that you started a thread and then argue with anyone who puts up an opposing view to your own or offers their own advice, advice they have gained through living it and learning to manage their own condition. maybe read a bit of the forum and gain some insight, not that I'm telling you what to do, you've clearly got this covered.

 

[Deleted member 39476]

Catch 22 is a misnomer here. It's only a Catch 22 when the elements regulating the outcome are outside of your control. I think you like to believe that they are.

"I could solve this problem easily if I could control myself" That's a catch 22 my friend.

I don't know about you, but I have never enjoyed scrubbing my toilet. Or filing my taxes, vacuuming, dusting, going to the grocery store in -30°C, ect, ect.
But I do it anyway because it needs to get done. There is no magic toilet fairy.

When I was in a better mindset I didn't really mind doing any of those things. I didn't really enjoy them that much but they certainly didn't bother me. Right now flossing my teeth is so excruciatingly stressful that I can't bring myself to do it once a week. It's night and day. Am I expecting magic? Sort of, yes. Your perspective comes from a place of not believing there is potential for a key to slide into place and experience a huge difference. I don't share your perspective, and I disagree with almost everything you said. Disabled people usually want to do as much as they can. Nobody in their right mind would ever tell a disabled person to grind through things that are made painful because of their disability just for the f*ck of doing it though. So many people here, you included, have told me to just grind through basic things as if that is the road to a better life, I think that's ridiculous.

Why did you quit when the parts work got hard? KEEP GOING! I have a bitch of a protector part that took TWO MONTHS just to back down and my work with her is far from over. And I’m told I’m one of the lucky ones whose parts listen to me fairly quickly. Maybe read up on all the parts work that others here are doing? It’s not easy. More than one of us wants to axe murder a part. (Can’t do that!) Point being, you’ve gotta push through. The only way out is through.....so either start living your life the way it is, or PUSH THROUGH!

I quit doing it on my own because I literally cannot do it on my own. My life is mostly being controlled by an internal monster, and internal monster that gets extremely upset if I pay attention to or address it directly in any way, therefore I lost all of my internal dialogue. It is still the main focus of my therapy though.

Here's how I can disagree with lots of people here who are apparently much more wise than me: every political party on earth has wise men, they all also have opponents with wise men who disagree with them on everything. They can't both be right, and at the end of the day it comes down to personal beliefs, opinion, feelings, and perspective more than anything else. With the exception of a few relatively small strategies, I strongly dislike the CBT model on a fundamental level, I think its rotten, I think its illogical. It does not matter how old or wise the man who comes to me with this is. I will give a fair shake to any idea someone brings forward, but I just totally disagree with that entire model and perspective. Same goes for the people pushing meds, I've been to a psychiatrist, I've asked them to explain to me their logic, their model, their advice, their perspective. I hate it, it sounds extremely rotten, it sounds extremely ineffective if not damaging, their logic is awful, their "science" isn't even science, no amount of decades of experience the person has will change those things unless they can make me a good argument. So far nobody has made me a very good argument to me, at least not one that applies to my specific situation, so I reject it.

Keep in mind though that although I argue too much and disagree strongly with half the suggestions, I will listen and hear out any idea, I am open to the idea that my entire view is wrong. I also appreciate and agree with a lot of the suggestions and advice in general. I also appreciate people arguing their point as hard as they can without getting personal, good ideas are worth defending.

 

[Fiadh]

"
Keep in mind though that although I argue too much and disagree strongly with half the suggestions, I will listen and hear out any idea, I am open to the idea that my entire view is wrong. I also appreciate and agree with a lot of the suggestions and advice in general. I also appreciate people arguing their point as hard as they can without getting personal, good ideas are worth defending.

Thats great but you need to take control over your own recovery, im not up for defending any treatment or medication which I have seen work or has worked for myself- just because you don't like it. Do the research yourself online- there is plenty of it.

 

[joeylittle]

I understand how this works, I also understand that it is not worth it to me.

Then why are you here?

Keep in mind though that although I argue too much and disagree strongly with half the suggestions, I will listen and hear out any idea, I am open to the idea that my entire view is wrong.

Half? What are the half of the suggestions that you don't disagree with strongly - does that mean you agree, or that you just disagree mildly?

Void was filled by a girlfriend. Filled by (perceived) love. That's how I know I don't need to grind this out like people suggest, I know it can be filled in a healthy way, at least in theory.

So you need other people (another person) to solve your problems for you. How nice for her.

If someone is permanently sick, i.e. a serious disability, you don't tell them to try and pull through and live like a normal person, you adjust expectations accordingly.

Incredibly offensive - and, incredibly ill informed. You understand neuroplasticity, yet want nothing to do with it. And disabled people - seriously disabled people - are unable to live 'normal' lives.

Question for you: were you in college? Have you graduated?

If someone had tried to talk sense into me back then I'd have reacted the same way. It wasn't until years later, when I'd finally had some "real" insight, that I looked back, saw the many opportunities I'd missed, the life I didn't live, the stories I wouldn't have to tell, that I cringed at my own blindness, arrogance, and hubris. Because it wasn't so much that I was exceptionally smart or had an exceptional level of insight about myself, the psyche, and life. I was just exceptionally afraid.

Well said. Me too, probably. I don't know if I had too much hubris, or just too much denial.

Catch 22 is a misnomer here. It's only a Catch 22 when the elements regulating the outcome are outside of your control. I think you like to believe that they are.

Yep. Thank you.

I love how we all love a good argument. That’s a big reason why this thread is now 8 pages long!

So true. But, what I love about this thread is, it's serving the posters. Seems to be. We all get stuck - that's a big thing that nearly every thread is about, in some way, being stuck. I know that I can use some of the advice that's being given, here. I can use some of my own advice that I'm giving, too.

I will give a fair shake to any idea someone brings forward, but I just totally disagree with that entire model and perspective.

You were referring to CBT here. If this is true, then you disagree with the notion that humans can - and should - exercise management of their thoughts and feelings and behaviors to the best of their ability. That's all CBT is. You also disagree with the idea that we all have learning capacity.

When do you think you first learned that lying was a wrong thing to do, or that telling the truth was preferred? When did you learn that shitting in a toilet was better than shitting your pants? When did you learn that you could master a complex task? All of these things - and more really, everything that happens to a human in their development - is related to exercising management of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. All of them are involved with every single question I asked. In order to disagree with the perspective of CBT, you would need to believe that at some point the human capacity to learn becomes fixed. Static. And you've got to believe that it becomes fixed sometime prior to the age of 21, which is where you are at now.

Can you honestly say that human beings cannot learn, grow, or change past the age of 21? And how much of this current crisis is related, at least temporally, to the breakup with the girlfriend? In other words, when was the breakup, and when was this current emotional crisis?

 

[mumstheword]

Just take what you want and whatever isn't helpful, its your prerogative to disregard.

I've never done the psych meds thing, other than an occasional diazapam.

I hear you aversion to psych meds and I feel the same way, (for me, personally).

Doesn't mean nothing in the entire plant kingdom won't help though.



Have you tried prayer?

Our minds are powerful things and faith is the stuff of miracles so if you're looking for a non-medication type quick fix maybe opening to the possibility of "faith healing" is for you.

Have you explored spirituality?

Read extensively?

I survived plenty of my unbearable not-able-to-functionality by reading lots and lots.

Other people's perspectives have been my saving grace, when I can't find any sanity in my own.


There's an opening, a moment between thoughts where peace and clarity lies. It will guide you. You have the answers inside of you. You will find your way. Entertain that possibility, even just for a moment.

Without judging yourself, connect with that part of you that deeply cares about you. That wants peace, love, health, functionality, comfort, a sense of safety, and just acknowledge its existence. That part is powerful.

Your intentions are powerful.

Ask and you will receive.

It's a truth and a law. Even if you have to just pretend that you believe, just for a moment.

What would that feel like? To know that what you wanted in your life, is coming your way? To trust that you are loved, safe, provided for and that the days of suffering are numbered.

Could you honour your suffering and give yourself compassion for what you've missed out on, lost, been subject to and failed to achieve?
Between your thoughts is a place of peace and serenity, it's like the pause between the in breath and the out breath.
See if you can get in touch with it, even if it's just a fleeting moment.

Your wisdom that knows what you need, lives there. What you need for your healing will be drawn to you by this most compassionate reality that underlies creation.
Some call it the kingdom of heaven, samadhi, ananda (bliss), the Holy Spirit.....etc etc etc.
It's presence in your life is often the point of meditation. It's your birthright to get in touch with this inner spaciousness and freedom from suffering.
You don't have to do anything to contact it. It requires no thought, no action, just a subtle shift in focus, a slight relaxation into a deeper part of yourself.

 

[Deleted member 39476]

So you need other people (another person) to solve your problems for you. How nice for her.

That's the opposite of what I meant. If just believing that somebody loves me can change my life that much, surely I can get to that point without actually needing to depend on somebody else. That's the main thing driving my bitter disagreement with the people suggesting building life up bit by bit and trying to manage everything, I know how much can change and how quickly it can change.

Have you explored spirituality?

I actually became very spiritual during this whole experience when I was formerly a staunch atheist. I have a very deep respect for religion, god, and tradition, to the extent that I will not pray unless I feel deep down that I am doing it in genuinely good faith, and for no other reason. I have wanted to go to church for a long time but that will have to happen after I've got over this hump of severe constant stress, right now any new experience is pretty terrifying, and I wake up at 3pm, so I can't go yet. I believe deeply that all can be forgiven, and that there is greater meaning to all this, my suffering included. At the same time I also believe that that a lot of people suffer much worse than me and for much longer than me without ever getting better. I also believe that suffering is just punishment for sin, and that in a lot of ways my suffering is the very appropriate consequence of the poor life my parents lived. I don't know if me recovering is my destiny, I would understand if it wasn't, I hope it is.

Just take what you want and whatever isn't helpful, its your prerogative to disregard.

I've never...

PS: It's refreshing having someone bring up the more transcendent aspects of all this. It's so easy to get lost in cold science and abstracts.