News Priest sex abuse scandal.

[Sideways]

They start by circling the wagons even more, as we saw in Boston,

Right. To be fair, this is the part that isn’t unique to the Catholic Church. And the abuse and intimidation of civil litigants, which I’ve witnessed, is truly devastating.

There are now calls for Churches to adopt Model Litigant standards when they retain legal representation to oppose litigation. But, so far, it hasn’t amounted to much more than just hot air.

These are things that I think the congregation itself carries the most power to change. I guess we have to just keep plugging away at it.

 

[Sideways]

People in authority of the people in authority who betrayed a primal trust - refuse to hold their people accountable.

And, in many cases, give them absolution via the confessional. Repeatedly.

Just does not compute.

 

[Mach123]

And I find myself agreeing with you again ^^^ @Junebug

I had some very near misses with SA - though at the time I was a very little girl from a remote place and my notion of them being near misses only came about once I was an adult and realised exactly what I had almost become victim of. And at the same time realising that when it wasn't me it was most definitely another child who did become a victim.

I recall when I was a child whispered conversations happening between adults about various individuals in the community who were 'off'. (My term not theirs) Bad people didn't go to church in my childhood world - only good people did :frown: Teacher's, banker's even shop-keepers were all 'good' people. lol

My parents and grandparents never 'armed' me with information that helped me to avoid those people or stop unwanted things from happening to me.

The most horrifying aspect of this whole subject is that there is no paedophile stereotype and religious and all other organisations have a long way to go to put in place policy etc., that enable the complete transparency that will not allow sexual predators to hide behind any vocation and do their evil.

This is what I was talking to my wife about yesterday? The culture of silence was not confined to the church, any church. There was "weird guy" in our neighborhood. He had an adopted or foster kid, at the time I'm remembering, a teenage boy about 14. His sex partner. Everyone knew about it. It was whispered about, but nobody did anything. Same way people whispered about the affairs and the drinking and the wife with the bruises and all the other secrets. He went to prison for it but IDK for how long.

IDK why it was like that, but it was. I went over there eventually. The point is though, that nobody did anything and everyone knew.

 

[Tinyflame]

But I think 2 things stand out to me, with this discussion:

-the similarities within abuse, everywhere
-the fact, far as I know, we are all inappropriate authorities to speak on what any clergy think, deal with, or what happens in a confessional.

I know in my profession there is a huge chasm between what people 'think' is involved, what they (don't) know of in terms of the higher bodies or governing structures, and virtually zero understanding of what works or how to accomplish the necessary tasks at hand. Nor the demands required, and the stress involved. In fact, everyone jumps on ideas, that in the field at best work for maybe 10 minutes. If you are front line, you know what works, and how to do it with love, compassion and also make it possible. And it is very very demanding. And most people, if they had a clue, would refuse to be faced with doing it.

As an RC I can only say this, there seems to be much lack of understanding of what Confession is. I might be wrong, bear in mind I am not a Priest, just 'myself', but my understanding is it's quite the opposite: it's to reconcile one's self to God, others, and also one's self (to love God, others, and one's self,, ie reduce self-hate, better; it is obvious that means zero abuse). With the explicit requirement the person intends not to repeat what they're doing. And the person being given absolution given only if they are remorseful and are committed to doing everything in their power to change/ not repeat it. And how do I know, maybe the Penance given is that they are ordered to tell? We do not know. But can you imagine the stress, and pressure? It would be unreal. Especially when you can't tell anyone what you're trying to accomplish. And when you know intimate details (in all areas of so many peoples' lives), that no one knows at all. Maybe because they are sincere, and the Priest is the only person they trust to know that. It's spiritual care, not supposed to just be someone's therapist or be a cop.

I don't believe they're the only one who could know or have a suspicion. Just like @Mach123 said.

 

[Sideways]

We do not know.

Only, we do know. We have a whole lot of first hand evidence now. And the evidence is publicly available.

I was raised protestant, and so I don’t understand the confessional beyond the theory. And to me, it seems completely irrational that anyone who had sexually abused a child would then go and tell their work colleagues. Especially if caring for children was part of their job. To me? That defies logic.

But we now know that is exactly what several, now convicted, repeat offending pedophile priests were doing. Sexually abuse child, seek absolution through confession, rinse and repeat. And in the process, each repeat-offending priest can end up with countless victims.

And while the ‘culture of silence’ is absolutely not a Catholic thing (it’s everywhere...first hand experience in that, so I really do get that both pedophilia and the culture of silence are everywhere), we have now amassed evidence that there are processes that are unqiue to the Catholic Church that is making the situation even worse than it is elsewhere - both compared to other religious institutions, and other institutions that have the care of children generally (like sports clubs, scouts, child detention facilities, schools, etc).

We now have a whole lot of evidence that this problem is accentuated by some of those uniquely Catholic processes. And yet the Church refuses to change them, and people still choose to worship their god at a Catholic Church in preference to other Churches which may have made significant changes to protect child safety. That’s what I don’t get.

 

[shimmerz]

With the explicit requirement the person intends not to repeat what they're doing.

Yes, but Junebug, when I used to go to confession, I made up lies (because I couldn't remember them all) and was given a 'say 4 hail mary's and 1 our father'.

That's it.

And the person being given absolution given only if they are remorseful and are committed to doing everything in their power to change/ not repeat it.

Clearly this was not the case generally though.
Catholic Church sex abuse cases by country - Wikipedia
Lots and lots of repeated crimes. Ones that were reported even but the crimes continued. Arrogant pricks.

But can you imagine the stress, and pressure?

Pretty sure the stress and pressure is not nearly as large as the soul crushing that took place within the young children, no? I am not certain how anyone else's pressure (certainly not adults) could even compare. I am confused as to why you would even bring this up.

Maybe I am wrong but what I see in your posting is your justifying the actions of the church. And it wasn't just the church. Law enforcement turned a blind eye as well.

It's spiritual care, not supposed to just be someone's therapist or be a cop.

Perhaps, but then again, who is providing spiritual care to the children?

There is no excuse for how this all went down. And I am sorry, but it sounds to me like you are deflecting because

-the similarities within abuse, everywhere
-the fact, far as I know, we are all inappropriate authorities to speak on what any clergy think, deal with, or what happens in a confessional.

This post is titled with a reference to priests specifically. So I am not big on deflecting this issue to 'abuse everywhere'.
And honestly I don't give a shit about what happens in confessionals, except what I do know is that due to the antiquated 'law' of the RC church that what is said in the confessional stays in the confessional. Even though children are being destroyed because that is happening.

A church who has dealt with such a serious issue in such a stand-offish way and refuses to take firm action and complete accountability for their priests - well, I am not certain how that is god sanctioned - and if that is the case then to me, that makes the entire 'god sanctioned' foundation of the pope's role in the church nothing but a laughing stock.

The church isn't worth anything if they don't stand by what they preach. Oh, and Pope John I is a pretty good indicator of how corrupt these holy people are. He got too close to seeing the twisted evil shit that goes on in the church. And they took care of him within 33 days I think it was. They took care of him real good.

Conjecture? Yes. Why? Because the church LIED about who found the pope, leaving the proper channels for looking into this fairly suspicious death (just by nature of the timing and the agenda of the meeting he was going to have that very morning, which indicated corruption in the church) a literal impossibility.

And let's not forgot the catholic schools where children's skeletons were found decades later.
Link Removed

So not only do we have pedophilia at the root of this holy organization's cover up, but deaths (genocide actually) of native children. But it's okay, because the kids that were murdered by priests - well the priests may have felt badly enough to go to confession afterwards. I must be reading that wrong - because that doesn't make any freaking sense to me. How does confession make this better?

Tons more history on the RC church - from historical perspective to present day.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

Nice.

Link to club med for priests
Why a GTA facility for priests with problems is half empty | The Star

 

[Sideways]

Perhaps, but then again, who is providing spiritual care to the children?

This is the tragedy to me. It’s almost like the mammoth number of victims involved (some convicted priests have literally dozens of known victims) somehow normalises it, so that we end up seeing arguments like the ones getting presented here.

There really isn’t any level of workplace stress that makes it ok for a priest to get away with sexually abusing one single child. Let alone dozens, spanning decades.

Every single one of those children has had their life devastatingly and irreparably changed. They are the ones carrying all of the burden, simply because ‘this is the way the church has always operated’.

Not a church I personally could take moral guidance from.

 

[Friday]

somehow normalises it, so that we end up seeing arguments like the ones getting presented here.

To my way of thinking, it’s less about normalizing & more about functionality. Because if one simply stopped going places where pedophiles go? Like this suggestion

Still people went to church when it was widely known that this was a thing in the church and the church wasn't dealing with it. Who sent their kids at that time to be altar boys? WTF?

You’d never let your children leave the house.

Pedophiles at church? No church.
Pedophiles in schools? No school.
Pedophiles in sports? No sports.
Pedophiles in arts? No arts.
Ad naseam.

It’s not functional to turn off your best judgement (ie an ongoing series of decisions about whom to trust with your children on a case by case basis) to simply avoid the whole lot.

Shimmerz... you had children during the school pedophile exposés & breaking news kidnappings in the 80s/90s right? Did you take your kids out of school & avoid all schools and teachers because some teachers in some schools are pedophiles, or have the bad-touch & stranger danger convos, stay active in your kids lives / meeting their teachers, coaches, etc.?

Why would people still take their families to church? Why would they still send their kids to school? Or play sports, or be active in the arts?

Continuing to participate in activities & attend institutions where pedophiles are present isn’t apathy or approbation. It’s choosing a full and active life. Just like continuing to drive on roads that I know drunks are also driving on. That doesn’t mean I approve of drunk driving, and am not aware of the risks of being in an accident, or the profound effects on those who are in accidents. I don’t have to avoid driving because drunks, or church because pedophiles. I can, instead, meet my kids teachers/priest, make a series of judgement calls about whether or not I want that individual in their lives as well as teach my kids to use their judgment... the same way I pay attention to who is on the road with me, and adjust my actions accordingly. Rather than simply pulling them from church/school, or refusing to drive at all.

Life has dangers. It’s not minimizing the danger itself nor the outcomes to look at those dangers in a holistic way & decide to interact with them in varied ways, instead of a black & white way.

 

[Sideways]

To my way of thinking, it’s less about normalizing & more about functionality. Because if one simply stopped going places where pedophiles go?

I can only imagine that the world is a pretty scary place for the informed parent.

The difference to me, is that if you send your kid to a school where there is an active pedophile, there are increasingly better systems in place to identify and get rid of the offender.

At least on paper, the school has an obligation to act if they become aware of the issue. One child victim doesn’t turn into 20 child victims. At least on paper, the school is obligated to put child safety first.

Compare that to the Church, which has decided, “Meh, child safety? We’ve got traditions to stick to...”.

 

[shimmerz]

Shimmerz... you had children during the school pedophile exposés & breaking news kidnappings in the 80s/90s right?

Yep, my kids were in schools in the 80's (late) and 90's. Not sure why - but I am not aware of your reference Friday. Do you have a link so I can get some perspective? I recall a ton of teachers strikes here in Ontario, that was about the most annoying thing in our schools at that time as I recall. I also lived in a relatively small town at the time so knew parents, teachers, principle all personally. I was secure in the fact that my children were safe.

You’d never let your children leave the house.

Nope, not really about that from my perspective. The statement was made to force the church to stand up and take responsibility and stop what was happening within their jurisdiction. I would expect the same from the boy scouts, girl guides, anyone that had children in their care as their main function.

Please keep in mind that the Roman Catholic church had alter boys. Lots of them. They ranged in age from very young to teenaged. When they were doing their thing at the church, they were under the direction of the priests. Within Catholic families - nobody was allowed to disrespect a priest. Nobody would have believed anyone, let alone a child, that said something bad about the priest. Blasphemous. On top of that, if the child was an alter boy, there was an element of authority to the priest. That makes a profound difference in my opinion.

So, no, I don't think that the comparisons you are making are valid. Having lived in a Catholic family, with nobody but Catholic friends, going to school in a Catholic school, with my parents only having Catholic friends - speaking up about priests and nuns who were in the wrong -

Let me just say that my life as a child was destroyed because I dared to say something bad about the church. My home life became a holy (pardon the pun) living hell.

I think one has to know what it is like to have been so profoundly indoctrinated with profoundly indoctrinated adults surrounding them to understand the implications of this priest and RC issue.

 

[Sideways]

I think one has to know what it is like to have been so profoundly indoctrinated with profoundly indoctrinated adults surrounding them to understand the implications of this priest and RC issue.

I think perhaps this is why the issue hits such a brick wall in my head. Because my logical brain can see, quite clearly, that I’d simply choose a different church, with a different moral compass.

 

[windsor]

There is a new priest sex abuse scandal breaking in Pennsylvania.

'Bigger than Boston': What the Pa. clergy sex abuse report could mean

You know I'm from greater Boston or I've said it plenty of times and we watched all this happen here. In fact, we worked in a local church where it happened b4 even Boston broke. My heart is wrecked for these kids, just devastated. I just don't know what to say.

My therapist wrote a book about this, about what they did to her. She wanted to be a nun. I'm a mess now. : (

Watch the award winning movie Spotlight to see how the Catholic Church operated. Follow that by the limited series Keepers to see the extremes the Church is willing to employ. Not a single priest has been defrocked. But unknown thousands of children have life long psychological problems. Most have lost their relationship with God which was suppose to be taught and nourished by those Priests. Catholics are being told...see again recent Billings, Montana Archdiocese settlement...that because these children brought their abuse to light & to the courts (which found them guilty) churches & schools must be closed & sold, thus denying the 'faithful' spiritual services. These adults who were suppose to be the representatives of God on earth, the safest, all loving revered super humans, beyond reproach, took advantage of their positions not with adults but malleable children. Bad enough. But a whole other group of those priests, of even higher rank in the Church, perpetuated it & covered it up...enabled the continuance of that abuse. Not sure that is forgivable.