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Difficult co-worker
- Post starter whiteraven
- Start date
- Status
- Post starter
- #14
whiteraven
Diamond Member
I manage her, but I don't have the ability to fire her. Trust me. She'd be long gone by now.
barefoot
Diamond Member
Sorry that you are in this situation @whiteraven - toxic relationships/culture in the workplace can be very difficult to deal with, especially when management/HR are not willing to do anything about it.
I understand your concerns around having a group meeting with her present - I can see how that feels unsafe and stressful.
On the plus side, perhaps this is a sign that her manager and HR are now acknowledging that there is an issue and are taking some steps (facilitating the meeting) to try to address it.
Ideally, for the meeting to move things forward positively (which doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to feel like a pleasant, positive experience for you all sitting in there at the time!) you need everyone to participate in an open, honest conversation. So, it may be worth speaking to your other colleagues about that to get a commitment from everyone that they are on board and will speak up. Otherwise, in situations like these, you can sometimes end up with everyone sitting in silence and it then looking like there’s no problem - or only the one person who is speaking has a problem - because people feel too intimidated in the other person’s presence to speak up.
Take it as an opportunity to give her some feedback. To do that really well, keep your observations factual and brief. Be calm, measured and fair in your delivery - keeping things factual will help with this as it keeps things objective rather than people getting caught up emotionally. Don’t get personal. Don’t let things end up with her feeling ganged up on - that will likely end up biting you all on the arse.
Make it clear what the impact of her behaviour is - in you, on the team, on the organisation as a whole....the impacts could be practical things eg around productivity or more interpersonal things eg people feeling nervous around her, or feeling stressed about coming into work.
So, say something like “when you get angry and shout at people, people get upset/feel nervous around you/worry about how you’ll respond, which creates a stressful work environment for the team”. And then you could give a brief, recent example of this happening - so everyone can see you are being measured, not getting personal and sticking to the facts.
Rather than “you’re always so angry, you’re always shouting and screaming - you’re a nightmare to work with and you make us all tread on egg shells all the time!” ? This sounds blamey, judgey and critical so she is likely to just get defensive (which won’t move anything on) and you could end up looking as unpleasant to work with as she is.
I do lots of management coaching, training and facilitation and a phrase that often goes down well is to: go hard on the issue, be gentle with the person. So, focus on the issue (maybe her anger management, maybe her low productivity/frequent disappearances) and then go through (factually and objectively and calmly) the impacts(s) of her behaviour(s)
If she gets angry in the meeting, you and your colleagues need to hold your nerve and stay calm. She will then hopefully shoot herself in the foot by demonstrating what you’ve all been talking about and you will all look like you’re being fair and reasonable and that something needs to change for everyone to be able to work effectively together.
Good luck with the meeting. Definitely try to speak to your colleagues beforehand to ensure that others will contribute to the meeting. And to emphasise the importance of you all being fair, objective and factual so you don’t end up looking like a gang of bullies yourself ? I suspect if she feels “picked on” she will go straight into victim role so you all need to try to not give her ammunition for that.
Also have a think about possible solutions. What would you like to see happen next? What change do you think would help and how can you help support that change? You probably want her to get fired but this meeting probably isn’t the place to say that ?
Hope that helps in some way. Keep us posted?
I understand your concerns around having a group meeting with her present - I can see how that feels unsafe and stressful.
On the plus side, perhaps this is a sign that her manager and HR are now acknowledging that there is an issue and are taking some steps (facilitating the meeting) to try to address it.
Ideally, for the meeting to move things forward positively (which doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to feel like a pleasant, positive experience for you all sitting in there at the time!) you need everyone to participate in an open, honest conversation. So, it may be worth speaking to your other colleagues about that to get a commitment from everyone that they are on board and will speak up. Otherwise, in situations like these, you can sometimes end up with everyone sitting in silence and it then looking like there’s no problem - or only the one person who is speaking has a problem - because people feel too intimidated in the other person’s presence to speak up.
Take it as an opportunity to give her some feedback. To do that really well, keep your observations factual and brief. Be calm, measured and fair in your delivery - keeping things factual will help with this as it keeps things objective rather than people getting caught up emotionally. Don’t get personal. Don’t let things end up with her feeling ganged up on - that will likely end up biting you all on the arse.
Make it clear what the impact of her behaviour is - in you, on the team, on the organisation as a whole....the impacts could be practical things eg around productivity or more interpersonal things eg people feeling nervous around her, or feeling stressed about coming into work.
So, say something like “when you get angry and shout at people, people get upset/feel nervous around you/worry about how you’ll respond, which creates a stressful work environment for the team”. And then you could give a brief, recent example of this happening - so everyone can see you are being measured, not getting personal and sticking to the facts.
Rather than “you’re always so angry, you’re always shouting and screaming - you’re a nightmare to work with and you make us all tread on egg shells all the time!” ? This sounds blamey, judgey and critical so she is likely to just get defensive (which won’t move anything on) and you could end up looking as unpleasant to work with as she is.
I do lots of management coaching, training and facilitation and a phrase that often goes down well is to: go hard on the issue, be gentle with the person. So, focus on the issue (maybe her anger management, maybe her low productivity/frequent disappearances) and then go through (factually and objectively and calmly) the impacts(s) of her behaviour(s)
If she gets angry in the meeting, you and your colleagues need to hold your nerve and stay calm. She will then hopefully shoot herself in the foot by demonstrating what you’ve all been talking about and you will all look like you’re being fair and reasonable and that something needs to change for everyone to be able to work effectively together.
Good luck with the meeting. Definitely try to speak to your colleagues beforehand to ensure that others will contribute to the meeting. And to emphasise the importance of you all being fair, objective and factual so you don’t end up looking like a gang of bullies yourself ? I suspect if she feels “picked on” she will go straight into victim role so you all need to try to not give her ammunition for that.
Also have a think about possible solutions. What would you like to see happen next? What change do you think would help and how can you help support that change? You probably want her to get fired but this meeting probably isn’t the place to say that ?
Hope that helps in some way. Keep us posted?
- Post starter
- #16
whiteraven
Diamond Member
I have already done this, several times. My manager has done this. Given her several very detailed examples and it's always everybody else's fault. Everything is a personal attack. Even my manager views it that way. But she continues to make excuses for her.
I am the only person she talks to (sometimes) because I *don't* make it personal. I talk to her about issues, not how much everybody hates and feels unsafe around her. I can't guarantee the others won't be emotional; they've been put in a very volatile situation - they feel threatened.
I am *very* measured at work. She takes advantage of that.
*sigh*
I hope you have found some peace in this extremely difficult situation. By reading this, I could not help but feel, the person is not so much the problem but the environment. What managers just ignore with such a toxic personality and never talk to her or reprimand her or move her to another unit. I am wondering maybe the managers hands are tightened because there is some medical note in this person's file. Something that is making them not react or accommodate her. Regardless, I am also wondering is there a written complaints about her and what were the result. Did anyone ever talk to her directly and discreetly about this?
I feel your pain but also I feel her pain and the pain of all the team. The managers are creating unhealthy and unsafe place by letting one person buldooze everyone.
Did you talk about this with your therapist (if you have one) and did they help you and guide ways you can protect yourself and your self agency?
Do you have any other prospects of moving to another unit in the same organization? or even a different shift?
My last take on this is: I do not know if you ever notice but there are some people who seem to just wash over difficult people and I always wonder how do they do it. I learned and this is my experience, in order to be so bothered by anyone, there is has to be element of relation or commonness. In other words, this woman is touching a wound inside of you. I do not know what the wound is but she is getting into you deeply so this to me tells me you are invested in her. You probably think of her even when you are not at work. I would really recommend, you focus on this issue with your therapist to dissect what that is. This woman is now part of your psychic. This is how crazy people get into others. They become parasite and eat you from the inside. The only person who can protect your inside is you. If this is sounding wohoo. Yes. it is. If you are not in therapy, it may worth every penny to learn how to release her from your mind.
you may eventually see her as a very disturbed child in adult body and no matter what she says or done, you will be almost like her guru and will be like, yes, Louise, you are right. the lid was not on the pot. Let us do it together and hopefully this does not happen. I bet you do it because you said you get along with her but the fact you are having anxiety and sick in the stomach is opposite of that. She is reacting to your facade of understanding because you do not.
Trauma is nasty and manifests so many different layers. She is a bully but bullies are not born; they are made. The question is who bullied this woman or still bullying her? I know it is complicated and not your business but if you want to stay there, it is your business how to adapt to a very hostile environment and not lose your mind.
No matter. It is much easier said than done. I had bully authority....just imagine. I had anxiety for 3 months but at the end one of those bullies made me change my life in the most fantastic and amazing way. I went back to school as a result because I realise, this job was not what I meant to do for life.
Maybe by growing unbelievable human compassion for this woman (whom we do not know what kind of life she had or still has at home), you will also grow exponentially bigger compassion for yourself and this will be part of your own healing.
Hard to say. I wish you all the best. I do not envy your position.
I feel your pain but also I feel her pain and the pain of all the team. The managers are creating unhealthy and unsafe place by letting one person buldooze everyone.
Did you talk about this with your therapist (if you have one) and did they help you and guide ways you can protect yourself and your self agency?
Do you have any other prospects of moving to another unit in the same organization? or even a different shift?
My last take on this is: I do not know if you ever notice but there are some people who seem to just wash over difficult people and I always wonder how do they do it. I learned and this is my experience, in order to be so bothered by anyone, there is has to be element of relation or commonness. In other words, this woman is touching a wound inside of you. I do not know what the wound is but she is getting into you deeply so this to me tells me you are invested in her. You probably think of her even when you are not at work. I would really recommend, you focus on this issue with your therapist to dissect what that is. This woman is now part of your psychic. This is how crazy people get into others. They become parasite and eat you from the inside. The only person who can protect your inside is you. If this is sounding wohoo. Yes. it is. If you are not in therapy, it may worth every penny to learn how to release her from your mind.
you may eventually see her as a very disturbed child in adult body and no matter what she says or done, you will be almost like her guru and will be like, yes, Louise, you are right. the lid was not on the pot. Let us do it together and hopefully this does not happen. I bet you do it because you said you get along with her but the fact you are having anxiety and sick in the stomach is opposite of that. She is reacting to your facade of understanding because you do not.
Trauma is nasty and manifests so many different layers. She is a bully but bullies are not born; they are made. The question is who bullied this woman or still bullying her? I know it is complicated and not your business but if you want to stay there, it is your business how to adapt to a very hostile environment and not lose your mind.
No matter. It is much easier said than done. I had bully authority....just imagine. I had anxiety for 3 months but at the end one of those bullies made me change my life in the most fantastic and amazing way. I went back to school as a result because I realise, this job was not what I meant to do for life.
Maybe by growing unbelievable human compassion for this woman (whom we do not know what kind of life she had or still has at home), you will also grow exponentially bigger compassion for yourself and this will be part of your own healing.
Hard to say. I wish you all the best. I do not envy your position.
barefoot
Diamond Member
Sorry @whiteraven - I didn’t mean to imply that you weren’t being measured and doing these sorts of things already, so apologies if that’s how my post came across.
I think it’s clear from your OP that you have been very fair, reasonable, patient and well-mannered with her, even though she is creating a very toxic environment (and I agree with @grit - the ineffective senior managers/HR who are choosing to turn a blind eye and not take any action to try to somehow resolve the situation are creating that toxic environment too by allowing her to continue this way - which doesn’t ultimately help you guys or her)
What I meant was, if you and your colleagues can all agree to take this approach to this meeting together, you will all demonstrate that you are an aligned, supportive, positive team and she will likely demonstrate that she is not fitting in with those positive behaviours...hence it’s then much more difficult for her to start throwing blame around and playing the victim. I mean, she still might try to do that, but I’d say it’s more likely that, in doing so, she will actually “prove” what you’re all saying is problematic about her. And, if that happens, there’s potentially more pressure on her senior manager/HR to come up with a plan, follow up and actually do something about it?
It’s certainly a tough situation to be in - dealing with toxic people at work can be incredibly exhausting and stressful. And, honestly, if her senior managers/HR aren’t interested in taking any action, even if everyone else is giving a consistent message about how difficult she is and they know it themselves, it’s unlikely that the situation will improve. She’s unlikely to suddenly magically decide herself to be less angry and more pleasant to be around, unfortunately!
See how this meeting goes, do what you can to get your points across and, importantly, also do what you can to look after yourself at this stressful time. I hope something useful comes from it.
I think it’s clear from your OP that you have been very fair, reasonable, patient and well-mannered with her, even though she is creating a very toxic environment (and I agree with @grit - the ineffective senior managers/HR who are choosing to turn a blind eye and not take any action to try to somehow resolve the situation are creating that toxic environment too by allowing her to continue this way - which doesn’t ultimately help you guys or her)
What I meant was, if you and your colleagues can all agree to take this approach to this meeting together, you will all demonstrate that you are an aligned, supportive, positive team and she will likely demonstrate that she is not fitting in with those positive behaviours...hence it’s then much more difficult for her to start throwing blame around and playing the victim. I mean, she still might try to do that, but I’d say it’s more likely that, in doing so, she will actually “prove” what you’re all saying is problematic about her. And, if that happens, there’s potentially more pressure on her senior manager/HR to come up with a plan, follow up and actually do something about it?
It’s certainly a tough situation to be in - dealing with toxic people at work can be incredibly exhausting and stressful. And, honestly, if her senior managers/HR aren’t interested in taking any action, even if everyone else is giving a consistent message about how difficult she is and they know it themselves, it’s unlikely that the situation will improve. She’s unlikely to suddenly magically decide herself to be less angry and more pleasant to be around, unfortunately!
See how this meeting goes, do what you can to get your points across and, importantly, also do what you can to look after yourself at this stressful time. I hope something useful comes from it.
Hi whiteraven, I have a lot to say but not enough time to say it. Shall come back tomorrow night/Saturday. I am in a shitty situation too. Would be good if we had a Barefoot around to mediate but unfortunately people are often ill equipped to truly deal with very unhealthy people. And are often unwilling to do so. When I have heard of successes it is usually when a group of people come together and stand together against it. Otherwise, it is sad to say, it can be best to move on. When that is a possibility.
- Post starter
- #20
whiteraven
Diamond Member
Another update. We had the meeting, which everybody'd been told was to "hash out" the issues we are having. Not that way at all. It was basically a 45 min meeting where we were reprimanded for not focusing on the work and spending out time worrying about unimportant things.
On the upside, my manager defended me and said some very supportive things of me. But...nothing got worked out and everything is pretty much the same. And I (and everybody else) don't feel they can say anything that's not work related or that has to do with problems with behavior.
And as a side note, I found out I have a bad UTI (that was why I was sick).
On the upside, my manager defended me and said some very supportive things of me. But...nothing got worked out and everything is pretty much the same. And I (and everybody else) don't feel they can say anything that's not work related or that has to do with problems with behavior.
And as a side note, I found out I have a bad UTI (that was why I was sick).
DharmaGirl
VIP Member
I worked as a float in the hospital, and one of the floors had a charge nurse like this. Nobody would rein her in. "That's how she rolls" was what everyone was told. I kept documentation every time I had to work with her. The last time I worked with her, she was made to take patients, while someone else was charge. This was after about 10 years of her being charge. She was given 4 patients and all 4 decided that they wanted another nurse. She stood in the hall saying that all her patients fired her, and I chuckled. I doubt she learned any lesson, but it was good to see her get consequences for her actions. I have never been fired by a patient.
DharmaGirl
VIP Member
Which further translates into a hostile work environment. No employer should harbor a bully, making everyone else's life miserable. You are at work more than 1/3 of your day, 5 days a week.
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