New T - feedback on his lack of acknowledgment would be helpful

[Sideways]

I look at it and think 'How?'.

Much the same way that we learn to trust generally. A big part of it is time, getting to know the thing, and spending time with the thing.

So, when it comes to our relationship with our own suffering: time, getting to know our suffering (as opposed to denial that we are suffering), and spending time with our suffering (feeling it, as opposed to avoiding it).

 

[Weemie]

I don't think anyone said the T lost composure.

I didn't think anyone said that, I was just expressing my experiences.

I get what you're saying but I also think trauma survivors needs are probably as diverse as anyone else's needs

Yes, I was just expressing my experiences and my needs. The reason why I did this is because the thread is about therapists and how therapists should respond to patients. Some patients have different needs, so the therapist isn't incorrect to take it slow and sus it out. Some patients respond well to empathy, some patients need composure and neutrality. I'm one of those patients, so I gave an example.

But not all trauma patients may feel that way. Some of them need that neutrality in order to open up I think.

Yes, I am one of those patients myself. The reason I included the study is because the OP was uncomfortable when the therapist didn't provide adequate empathy, and this study shows that many patients with PTSD have trouble recognizing facial expressions or emotions and interpret neutral expressions as hostile. It was relevant to the discussion, but obviously does not apply to every single person. (Nothing really does.)

 

[ninja]

Much the same way that we learn to trust generally. A big part of it is time, getting to know the thing, and spending time with the thing.

So, when it comes to our relationship with our own suffering: time, getting to know our suffering (as opposed to denial that we are suffering), and spending time with our suffering (feeling it, as opposed to avoiding it).

This. Also. I've found that some parts of me seem to need to get really really really sick of trying the same strategy (minimization, denial) over and over again before they're willing to try something else. I don't know if the getting really sick of it thing is actually a necessary part of the process or just a byproduct, and if it is an important part of being ready to try a different approach, I don't know how to expedite the process of getting sufficiently sick of it. Super helpful, I know.

My T and I also got to a point in therapy (4 years in, about 1.5 years ago) where we talked about whether I would be better off seeing another therapist because my self-blame, self-hatred, minimization, and denial was really hard for her to keep sitting with because it went so against her experience of me and her understanding of my history. Although challenging, that was a turning point for me because I realized that if my T could put a boundary down like that, they maybe I could do. She was struggling to keep holding space for those parts and hell, so was I! I ended up deciding to stay with T, and so we negotiated how to handle those parts of me. They got less space in session. When they came up in session, T would explicitly call them out and confront them with facts and questions. E.g. "Why should you know what is/isn't abuse given being abused for years was your normal? We have to teach those parts that what they experienced was not okay." After while I began to see the minimization/denial/self-blame/self-hatred as part of a cycle that flips on whenever I dip into those feelings/memories. I've learned (am learning) that even if it's hard to believe (feel), things that have happened often are just really "that bad". And it's horrible to feel. But it does get easier.

The other thing that has helped a lot is having a few people in my life other than my T who don't know the details of what I experienced but have a general idea of things (to varying degrees) and also know the strategies I tend to turn to when I'm trying to cope. And they will help knock some sense into me when I'm in a state of minimizing/denying; even if I can't hear what they have to say at the time, it does float around in the background for a while and eventually filter in, at least to some extent.

 

[beaneeboo]

A big part of it is time, getting to know the thing, and spending time with the thing.

I think this is what I've been avoiding doing. Ties in I guess with communicating with parts...I think I like this concept better than 'Go and communicate with your parts'. Spending time with a part of myself feels much less expectant. I like the concept of being an observer too.

Not sure if that makes sense.

So, when it comes to our relationship with our own suffering: time, getting to know our suffering (as opposed to denial that we are suffering), and spending time with our suffering (feeling it, as opposed to avoiding it).

I think the cognitive part of me can do this perhaps. And actively knows I need to. Wants to. But the feeling parts? The parts that have to sit with feeling like they are dying? It's just so counter intuitive to want to sit in that. But I hear what you're saying. I guess my question to myself again is, how? When the come up, just physically sit with them? Don't try to run away from it? Actively stay in the moment with it?

 

[beaneeboo]

. The reason I included the study is because the OP was uncomfortable when the therapist didn't provide adequate empathy, and this study shows that many patients with PTSD have trouble recognizing facial expressions or emotions and interpret neutral expressions as hostile.

I've been considering this in relation to myself in a number of different scenarios, where i can see in hindsight, this may have been what was going on...

This. Also. I've found that some parts of me seem to need to get really really really sick of trying the same strategy (minimization, denial) over and over again before they're willing to try something else. I don't know if the getting really sick of it thing is actually a necessary part of the process or just a byproduct, and if it is an important part of being ready to try a different approach, I don't know how to expedite the process of getting sufficiently sick of it. Super helpful, I know.

No, it is helpful as I recognise this process you're describing

My T and I also got to a point in therapy (4 years in, about 1.5 years ago) where we talked about whether I would be better off seeing another therapist because my self-blame, self-hatred, minimization, and denial was really hard for her to keep sitting with because it went so against her experience of me and her understanding of my history. Although challenging

I'll say!! I think I would have found that incredibly challenging- like rejection....

, that was a turning point for me because I realized that if my T could put a boundary down like that, they maybe I could do.

But thats great that it worked for you and you managed to take that away from it...

She was struggling to keep holding space for those parts and hell, so was I! I ended up deciding to stay with T, and so we negotiated how to handle those parts of me. They got less space in session. When they came up in session, T would explicitly call them out and confront them with facts and questions. E.g. "Why should you know what is/isn't abuse given being abused for years was your normal? We have to teach those parts that what they experienced was not okay."

ok i can begin to see where T was coming from with this angle...

After while I began to see the minimization/denial/self-blame/self-hatred as part of a cycle that flips on whenever I dip into those feelings/memories.

thats a big win... i know how hard that cycle is ...

The other thing that has helped a lot is having a few people in my life other than my T who don't know the details of what I experienced but have a general idea of things (to varying degrees) and also know the strategies I tend to turn to when I'm trying to cope. And they will help knock some sense into me when I'm in a state of minimizing/denying; even if I can't hear what they have to say at the time, it does float around in the background for a while and eventually filter in, at least to some extent.

I'm finding that, having told a very few people the absolute minimum about what's going on for, that has helped alot. But none of them know about the aspects of denial, self blame self hating.. you know those really knarly moments we've been in? (often on here trying to work through it)?... I just don't think shame (to the level I experience it at times) and all the related thoughts and feelings which come with that, are understood on a level which is helpful by those i know around me.. so I don't share that side of it with anyone...ironically the thought of doing so just evokes so much shame

 

[Sideways]

I guess my question to myself again is, how? When the come up, just physically sit with them? Don't try to run away from it? Actively stay in the moment with it?

You used the word curious earlier on. Which is perfect.

Be curious about it.

There’s some really good writers on how to do that. I found Russ Harris’ work (he covers mindfulness in The Happiness Trap, which is actually an ACT book, but Mindfulness is one of the core principles adopted in ACT) very readable - both easy to follow, and easy to apply.

 

[beaneeboo]

You used the word curious earlier on. Which is perfect.

Be curious about it.

There’s some really good writers on how to do that. I found Russ Harris’ work (he covers mindfulness in The Happiness Trap, which is actually an ACT book, but Mindfulness is one of the core principles adopted in ACT) very readable - both easy to follow, and easy to apply.

Great suggestion thanks... I've never heard of him or this work...

Historically, mindfulness has been hard for me...I did a course once and it back fired...I was in a group of people and I was the only one who couldn't sit with myself being 'mindful' ... it was too triggering..I just kept getting a jolt / a shock down my body into my stomach and I really didn't want to sit with it..or be curious...I know now that fear of sitting with myself is not being able to sit with my nervous system and it's default mode of anxiety/ fight or flight...

I would like to over come this and funnily enough have just organised 6 sessions over the next 3 months with a somatic therapist to work on trying to calm my nervous system enough for me to sit with myself and also be able to do physical exercise...because currently, any time I get my heart rate up, e.g going for a jog or an exercise class (which I haven't done in years), it sends a message of fear to my body... and I bail.... I don't get that endorphin rush others get with exercise.. I just feel teary and upset ...

I need to just be able to tolerate a raise in heart rate without freaking out ...because until I can do that, I feel like even focusing inwards is too much.

But I am working on it!!!

 

[No More]

I would like to over come this and funnily enough have just organised 6 sessions over the next 3 months with a somatic therapist to work on trying to calm my nervous system enough for me to sit with myself and also be able to do physical exercise...because currently, any time I get my heart rate up, e.g going for a jog or an exercise class (which I haven't done in years), it sends a message of fear to my body... and I bail.... I don't get that endorphin rush others get with exercise.. I just feel teary and upset ...

As an aside, have you looked at Zone two training? I do a lot of it when running (bc I like to run silly distances that some people won’t even drive ) and its all about keeping it easy, keeping the heart rate low, keeping it relaxed. Might be a way in, for you? When I first started ages ago I had to have little walk breaks to lower it before I could jog again, and gradually over time you can get faster and faster while still remaining under that 130bpm (which is where personally for me my Z2 sits)

 

[beaneeboo]

As an aside, have you looked at Zone two training? I do a lot of it when running (bc I like to run silly distances that some people won’t even drive ) and its all about keeping it easy, keeping the heart rate low, keeping it relaxed. Might be a way in, for you? When I first started ages ago I had to have little walk breaks to lower it before I could jog again, and gradually over time you can get faster and faster while still remaining under that 130bpm (which is where personally for me my Z2 sits)

Oooh no I haven't heard of this.. I'll look it up... but I can kind of see the logic.. this is what I need... it's what the somatic therapist said we'll do too.. work up to me tolerating an increased heart rate slowly without that signaling danger to my body...

 

[No More]

Oooh no I haven't heard of this.. I'll look it up... but I can kind of see the logic.. this is what I need... it's what the somatic therapist said we'll do too.. work up to me tolerating an increased heart rate slowly without that signaling danger to my body...

I don’t want to derail your thread, so feel free to tag me elsewhere if you want more information! Google will bombard you with all sorts of overly detailed rubbish you don’t need. It’s a misconception that to get anything ‘out’ of cardio you need to have a monster heart rate and be all stressed. Exercise doesn’t have to be punishment, take some snacks and a drink, you’ll find when you start you have to shuffle supppper slow, super chill. Focus on everything feeling easy, feeling relaxed, easy breathing, it’s intended to be the whole opposite of high stress, high danger, banging heart.

Somatic therapist sounds really good. I used to wear my running watch in sessions, and it whenever my heart rate spiked we’d take a step back, breathe, calm, go again. Because I didn’t always mentally notice when we were going into the red before I was too far over the line to easily come back. So that really worked for me to make me mentally aware of when my body was saying okay this topic is stressful.

 

[Ecdysis]

"Cozy cardio" may be a helpful concept too.