News Another Shooting In The Us

[catjudo]

Do you even know what an ak 47 IS? No googling, be honest.

Do not talk down to me. It is an assault rifle. It is an appropriate weapon when used in the military. It is not, IMO, something that needs to be owned by a now-civilian who is working in a grocery store.

ETA: I should say WAS working in a grocery store since he is no longer alive.

 

[The Albatross]

Considering what happened "last time", I'm waiting for at least 24 hours before I decide whether or not I know enough facts about this latest incident to comment.

 

[Loner]

Do not talk down to me. It is an assault rifle.

Exactly, its an assault rifle. Assault rifles are by definition select fire, which means machine guns.

I HIGHLY doubt it was an actual select fire ak47. Select fire weapons are highly regulated and not a single legally owned Class III firearm has EVER been used in a violent crime. I seriously doubt this is the first.

I'm sure its just media hyperbole, AK47, OMG!!!.

What it actual was, was probably the civilian legal version of an ak47, which is simply a semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine, which are extremely common for target shooting, hunting, and protection from bears in Alaska. The only thing that makes this particular semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine different or more dangerous in most people's minds is they have seen it in violent movies and tv shows and can recognize it.

EVERY gun gets reported as something horrible by the media. Semi automatic rifles are assault rifles, handguns are 'easily concealable' heck, they love to call hunting rifles 'high power long range sniper rifles'. Even people arrested with small caliber 22s, the media jumps on the fact that they had THOUSANDS of rounds, an amount which can be bought for like $40 at walmart, and be gone in an afternoon of shooting for many target shooters. Its all hyperbole.

This horse has been beaten to death, but I really believe the problem to be that people are willing to hurt and kill others for little or no reason. Restricting the freedom of normal people isnt an acceptable rational or logical response to the existence of crazy people, nor will it make the world a safer place.

 

[Philippa]

This horse has been beaten to death, but I really believe the problem to be that people are willing to hurt and kill others for little or no reason. Restricting the freedom of normal people isnt an acceptable rational or logical response to the existence of crazy people, nor will it make the world a safer place.

Which screams to me that people are no longer viewing other people as human beings...they see them as objects, like in a video game, and are impulsive without considering consequences of their actions.

No one cares, in other words.

This is where the gaming argument comes into it. When people can feel a fantastic sense of power in a game, and in their realities feel powerless, it's not a far jump to see how they might start to confuse reality with fantasy, or choose to from losing the capacity to empathize, or empathy as a function be shut down in so many people. People are out of balance.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Restricting the freedom of normal people isnt an acceptable rational or logical response to the existence of crazy people, nor will it make the world a safer place.

Statistics from countries with restrictive gun laws show that those countries are safer places.

 

[Loner]

Statistics from countries with restrictive gun laws show that those countries are safer places.

There is a difference between correlation, causation, and coincidence. Switzerland has assault rifles (real ones, as in select fire) in every home, yet has almost no violent crime, and I don't think they have EVER had a single mass shooting.

There is something sick with American society. Lots of studies have shown it is the most narcissistic country on earth, and the most shallow. I love it, but it has its flaws. I do not believe guns are the problem.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

There is sickness in America. There is so many people with mental illness. I think it is very sad. Sp many people who see someone do something so tragic go off doing the same thing. It is like a chain reaction. Domestic violence and childabuse are at all a all time high. We are a broken society. I agree with your assessment Loner. The sickness lies in our society. We are fragmenting all over the place. It is heartbreaking. It has been broken for a very long time.

 

[heidi]

Switzerland has assault rifles (real ones, as in select fire) in every home, yet has almost no violent crime, and I don't think they have EVER had a single mass shooting.

Do you know if they have more restrictions in Switzerland? I always hear gun right activists using that argument about Canada, but I was surprised to learn that Canada has more restrictions then the US which could account for the differences.

Having done a quick second of research:

In Switzerland-To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.

 

[Loner]

Switzerland has a fair amount of restrictions, but none of which would prevent someone from going on a mass shooting. Handguns are heavily restricted, target shooting happens only at highly regulated ranges, and ammo for previously mentioned military assault rifles is regulated and kept very careful track of. Personally, I don't see how any of that really matters at all, the fact of the matter still is they have fully automatic assault rifles with a few hundred rounds of ammo ready to go loaded into mags in every home, and there is nothing stopping someone from using one of those guns to go shoot a bunch of people, especially since so few people carry handguns there, they would almost certainly be shooting at defenseless people, which is what the mass shooters tend to look for, they don't want a shootout, they want a massacre. Every mass shooting in America happens somewhere that the shooter can be quite certain no one else will be armed.

Yet somehow no one goes on shooting rampages in Switzerland. I don't think its because of the restrictions they place on guns, I think its just because their society isn't as messed up as america's.Its so tempting to jump to conclusions about correlation, or causation when comparing different countries levels of violence in relation to their gun laws, but I don't think it makes much difference. England has had a murder rate of about 1 per 100k people, which has stayed constant for the last hundred years, despite a proliferation of firearms then a crackdown on said firearms.

Theres a very interesting line in the book No Country for Old Men. The sorta narrator, the sheriff named Bell, is wondering if the violent cartel criminals he has to deal with are different than the ones from generations prior, and he stops and instead, wonders why now are millions of people so eager and desperate to dope themselves up with the cartel's product. I think theres something in that. Interestingly though, the US murder rate has been at about 4.6 per 100k for the past 60 years. Its risen slightly from the 50s and is now at 4.7.

Regardless, I don't think restricting guns is going to have much of an effect on american society. The vast majority of murders are business decisions related to the drug trade, and the vast majority of the rest of the murder are some sort of jilted lover scenario. In both instances, they would most likely strangle their victims if they had to, or beat them to death.

I went target shooting in the desert yesterday. It was great. So nice to empty my mind of the days worries and focus simpleminded on a difficult but simple and rewarding task. Put my earbuds on under my hearing protection, listen to a little m ward and such, and shoot at some targets. That is all the justification I think I need for my 'need' to own a scawy civilian lookalike version of an assault rifle.

 

[Meadowsweet]

There is something sick with American society. Lots of studies have shown it is the most narcissistic country on earth, and the most shallow. I love it, but it has its flaws. I do not believe guns are the problem.

I agree on this point. But this is the reality that needs to be taken into consideration when considering the gun laws in this country.

The Swiss have a gun culture that as a nation they are responsible to handle. The US has a gun culture which, as a nation they are not handling.

I have no doubt that many responsible citizens have guns and never kill. But, I havn't heard any logical argument why that responsible citizen is unwilling to support the safety of their nation, by changing gun law.

 

[Loner]

Because safety isn't the greatest good?

Safety is also an illusion. No country is 'safe'. Cars kill more people than guns. Despite the fact that mass shootings seem so common they are incredibly rare, we just have them shoved in our faces on the news. I am perfectly ok with accepting them as a consequence of an entire nation's desire to preserve their freedoms, just like almost all people are perfectly ok with accepting the collateral damage caused by cars to have the freedom to use said cars.

This debate is so cyclical, I don't know why I keep replying. I can't stop though.

Just looked it up actually, the US has a murder rate of 4.2 per 100k. I think this is acceptable. I think we could lower this more by legalizing cannabis, and heroin than we could be banning guns. We could lower it even more by placing stronger penalties on violent crime, armed robbery should automatically carry a charge of attempted murder.

Honduras, has a murder rate of 9.6 per 100k.

Take a look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Jamaica, with their being caught with a single bullet will earn you the death penalty policy, has a murder rate of 52.2 per 100k

Also, keep in mind that many of the countries with less murders than the us on that list probably in fact have more. I highly doubt Somalia, Iran, Iraq, or some other places are adequately reporting all homicides.

Despite everything you hear on the news, the US really isnt all that violent. Its a lot worse than some places, but its really not that bad. Its below the world average of 6.9 per 100k. I am willing to accept it to keep my freedoms.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I am perfectly ok with accepting them as a consequence of an entire nation's desire to preserve their freedoms

This is the part of the argument that makes no sense.I recognise that the gun is synonimous with freedom according the constitution. But in the twenty first century, the gun isn't giving Americans freedom.

The freedom of UK citizens is comparative to that of US citizens. But the murder rate per 100,000 is a quarter of the US murder rate.

The freedoms I would like in the UK would be given with changes in the law and in the voting system. But I do not have the freedom to change that by using a gun.

If I attempted to use a gun to change the rule of my country, I would be shot or imprisoned, as would a citizen of the US.

So a gun doesn't bring about freedom and hasn't brought about freedom for a US citizen in well over a century.

A point I mentioned in an earlier post, is that in the event of a US revolution, the US army would either support the government or turn against them. In modern times, any such war would also attract international intervention.

I try to understand the psychological effect of changing the constitution 'right to bear arms'. But in practicalitly, the gun no longer gives citizens freedom in the US.