Therapy Difficulties - Online Therapy An Option?

[Abstract]

Hi Junebug,

And I too forget (can't remember), also 'present' well, lose the words, cannot share what I feel.

Thanks for sharing. Sorry you relate to all this.

too many defenses and ways to hide... And too many ways to cognitively 'reason' ourselves out of i

Yes this is such a big problem I think. Like obstacle courses and walls between me and doing anything.
Really frustrating. Still not decided what I am going to do but I am thinking a lot about the importance of the t having more info if I cant say it and of me having more info about them than what I see in writing.

I hope things are going better Junebug.

 

[Abstract]

The other thing I find is that my understanding of reality when it comes to my inner self changes..... Its like I loose things.

Just thinking about this and it is such a big problem for me. And I can't find words for it. Sometimes I can access some things and sometimes I can't. Ask me a couple of hours after I have said something and it will feel totally foreign for me. Having written it out has me thinking and it is more than a bit overwhelming. There is something seriously "off".

 

[Abstract]

Just discovered something called trance logic.

"trance logic The ability of a hypnotized person to tolerate the existence of inconsistent perceptions or ideas. "The inconsistent perceptions are not kept isolated but appear in juxtaposition . . . The essence of this phenomenon seems to be the suspension of critical thinking." Udolf, Handbook of Hypnosis for Professionals, pp.108-108."
Sidran Institute -- Glossary

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...AEwAw#v=onepage&q=trance logic trauma&f=false

 

[franciemarnie]

I never heard of trance logic, but it's interesting.

I can recognize that in the years I sustained repeated trauma, critical thinking was suspended. Inconsistent perceptions were held simultaneously. There was danger everywhere in my home environment, but at the same time I held onto a worldview that was in complete denial of what I experienced. I never thought of it in hypnosis terms, but I definitely saw it subsequently as a kind of brainwashing. Family members were narrating a reality that did not exist. But to live within those environs and survive, I had to "see" it too, had to believe. I had to. I was a kid. What choice did we have without someone in our corner so to speak, someone to acknowledge reality, our reality.

Man it was awful what we went through. No matter where I'm at, if I think of it, I am still at age 56 so glad to not be there anymore.

It is such a drag we have to pay the price though.

 

[Leah123]

Ask me a couple of hours after I have said something and it will feel totally foreign for me. Having written it out has me thinking and it is more than a bit overwhelming. There is something seriously "off".

I experienced this a lot particularly when I was younger, due to the dissociation and being triggered a lot. I've found the best way for me to manage it in therapy is to take the tiniest of baby steps when discussing anything trauma related, to avoid the cognitive dissonance that might follow if I overwhelm myself with emotion. One little example is talking about my father, one day my therapist asked me if his breath smelled, because I'd told her he was an alcoholic. So... the only thing we really talked about related to the past that day was that I remembered him actually smelling like raw pepperoni, because he worked in a meat processing facility. It was something concrete to hold on to, just enough to solidify the past a little bit, without making me regret saying anything or worrying that I was a liar or mistaken... I have a lot of issues with doubt and distrusting myself (thanks Mom!)

The more I hear about your concerns Abstract, the more I think what my therapist calls baby steps would be very important to you- and sadly, I know you said you haven't worked with a therapist who did that before. I believe the right therapist would be willing to inch through your issues with you, one tiny piece at a time, and could work with you about your issues about therapy before even tackling the bigger issues that brought you there. After all, you are the client, though I know it can be challenging to feel the sense of power that comes from being the one booking their time.

Sorry it's such a struggle! Goodness I feel for you. :(

 

[Tinyflame]

Like obstacle courses and walls between me and doing anything.

Really frustrating. Still not decided what I am going to do but I am thinking a lot about the importance of the t having more info if I cant say it and of me having more info about them than what I see in writing.

Yes Abstract I think very helpful- to bridge things we ourselves do not realize, or do not see, or do not know. I think outside (of ourselves) input, or perspective, is essential. And I imagine solely e-mail correspondence not only misses much but could lead to misinterpretation, or much doubt

((((((((((Abstract)))))))))

 

[Hashi]

I've been looking at this thread on and off and wanted to ask/suggest something but not sure how to do that. I think it's because I'm sort of agreeing and disagreeing. I do agree with the wisdom here about finding the right kind of therapist with the right kind of approach and the right kind of format (eg online or face to face) for therapy. I think those things are really important. At the same time, I don't think that they're the biggest issue.

Abstract, I'm wondering what you think about things that you can do to increase your own coping and stability? I think was suggested here at some point that this could perhaps be the initial focus of work with a therapist. I think Bloom also referred to it, as "inner safety" or similar (sorry if that's incorrect, I'm saying this from memory and not up to reviewing the whole thread).

My concern would be that setting up a delicate balance with a therapist which depends on their constant care and attention over how they talk to you, listen to you and ask you questions, is quite a fragile sort of safety. I'm very mindful of my own therapy issues at the moment, and how upsetting it's been for me when my therapist has slipped up. As you wisely said to me, therapists are only human and mistakes are part of therapy. I think this is true, and I wonder how that would fit in with the careful constructing of a "safe" approach to therapy, when it doesn't seem realistic to expect that a therapist would react and interact with you in an ideal way every single session, yet the effect of a less than ideal interaction could be very destabilising.

I have two thoughts relating to this. One is to explore the idea of inner safety much, much more. Not only thinking about working with a therapist to build this, but also by working to build this before starting any therapy work.

The other is to consider incorporating a therapy approach that has an element of working with behaviours as universal patterns, like Internal Family Systems. The reason I think it's worth considering - and of course in doing so you might decide it's not for you - is that the "step back" that working with archetypes gives me has been very important in allowing me to approach some very difficult things that I'm not sure I could have done otherwise. For me, it's a bridge between thinking theoretically (which is safer but can be too removed from me to move me forward) and diving into emotion (which can easily be overwhelming). Having this sort of healthy detachment as a tool helps to contain the therapy work, especially because I know each archetype/subpersonality is only part of me and not the whole.

I know archetype/subpersonality/family systems work may not be for everyone. It's been fundamental for me, but obviously different people work well with different approaches.

I do think that inner safety is for everyone, and is essential, and in my view the usual amount of building this is completely inadequate. Personally, apart from when in crisis, I think the only response to dissociating in therapy should be to stop everything and go back to working on inner safety so it doesn't happen. I don't mean to invalidate any client by saying that. I see it as a fault of the therapy system that we're led to do anything else, and I think that as clients we pay a high price for that failing.

 

[Abstract]

Hi MD!

Thanks for all your input!

easy to default to the assumption that the less contact and directness, the better and safer. I know that was always my conscious view...And then at some point I realised that I'd actually been taking the exact opposite form of security from my relationship with my therapist for a long time

Yes. Exactly. My initial response was that the distance might buffer me enough that it would work wonders on unhelpful responses. And it well might. And then the more I process this the more I see the counter view. I don't think I realised how important the other aspects of this are for me.

Being able to read non-verbal cues from the therapist is also very empowering,

Yes. And I think both the positive ones as well as feeling that one would be able to pick up negative ones.

Managing silence effectively and productively

This is sooo important and I have to say the last t I had managed to make me feel so much safer as a result of how she dealt with me. I hope this part can be better still but it gave me hope. In fact it was revelatory. Compared with any therapy before that. I love how your t manages things with you.

I know you know that there are always bumps in any road and downsides to every relationship.

I certainly do. It is part and parcel of it no matter how good the therapist is, how well matched they are and how hard we work. This part of it I am Ok with. As Ok as one can be about all the painful shifting that is involved of course!

But you can mail him to me and come along too if you like! I don't blame you for not wanting to be left behind! He sounds like he is a wonderful therapist for you.

that's only half of the battle and probably even more reason that a good therapist is necessary, but don't be afraid to trust what your analytical wise observing mind tells you

Thanks for the reminder to look at my wise mind. Its a bit hard to find at present as there is too much thought interference but I am guessing closer.

And thanks for the compliment about self exploration. And yes you understand well all the difficulties that remain regardless.

I think I have come to the conclusion that online therapy isn't the best option for me right now. I like the idea of still using some of the things that work for online therapy such as e-mails. My previous therapists have been anti any written communication except for the last one who is the only one that was a trauma t. She used crayons and paper as well as a sandtray to help with the communication blocks. It helped me a lot even when talking still wasn't possible. I understand what you mean when you say emailing before helps lay the ground for conversation after. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for your encouragement and no it doesn't come across as patronising. I won't bother you with my internal dialogue but I am trying to just ignore it despite all "drama queen, pathetic" etc stuff going off in my head! Truly just feel such profound self disgust that even doing this is difficult. But there is some empowerment as I have not been able to broach this topic directly for a long time and if I am honest I am surprised at how much I have looked at here. The online therapy issue turned out to be a good bridge to looking at the therapy issue more broadly.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Bloom,

It really helped to hear how you and your t manage therapy so thank you! It helps to know that you too are not a talker. And I can see why guidance from a t on how to manage ones activation levels and stress would help keep one present and able to interact.

Since I have realised that dissociation is part of what I am dealing with I have done a lot of work on it on my own. Learning what it is and then looking at ways to manage it better. On the whole in my life I cannot tell you how much better this all is. How much better I deal with it.

I am glad you had an informed and intuitive therapist as that obviously helped a lot with him treating you appropriately. I would have benefited hugely by someone asking questions and seeing the responses in the way he did with you. I have made a note of this as I am hoping it could help me in the future too.

I suspect this is why predators have such an easy time preying on people like us.

If I think back over the years I see what a sitting duck I was. Both for bigger stuff and lesser. Managing any relationship becomes very complex when one is essentially not there when one most needs to be.

One thing I am good at is that I am quite single minded and determined and that means that regardless of how difficult something is I will do it if I feel it is the correct path. And that would mean going back to therapy even when it is hard. In fact that tendency of mine has backfired more than once in my life.

It's like discovering that the person I thought I was turned out to have been a costume and now that I know my true self, I'm furious, grief-stricken, disgusted, and profoundly sorrowful of what essentially has been a lost life for over four decades.

Thank you sharing that. I feel very similarly. I have had a bit of time now for the majority of the realisations (more keep coming all the time) and have discussed a lot of it and so the initial intensity has softened quite a bit. But I still look back at was essentially not a life with a mixture of horror and disbelief.

The best way I can describe it is that I was not a person. I just wasn't at all. Despite the difficulties of recent years I feel like I have at least been born metaphorically.

I am hoping I will manage things better if I go back into therapy now. Since the last lot (it was through a charity and time limited) I have learned an enormous amount. I essentially evaluated as best as I could what I thought I needed to be able to tolerate therapy better. I then put myself through the equivalent of a boot camp trying to both break down the barriers and build skills to help my tolerance. I have called it T training to myself!

I did notice that in the real world and in therapy, I seemed to have a hearing problem, even when I'd try to listen.

I read up about Trance Logic yesterday and I wondered if that could partly explain why I never "noticed" these things up until a certain point in my life.

I have a sense of very often being outside my body and looking down on myself for example. I have a sense that I used to do it in T a lot too in the past when I was speaking more. And yet not once in those 37 + odd years of my life did I ever take even a microsecond afterwards to think to myself, "I just looked down at myself from above". That is only one example. Its like my general very good perception skills were entirely blocked my whole life when it came to me. There is no way to put that graphically enough to represent the reality. It was the same with flashbacks and traumatic events. Or even difficult situations. A happens. The next moment comes. There is no connection between the two. Its no wonder there is no story of my life.

Thank you soooo much for sharing about the lead up to the decision to record sessions and how you managed it. If I can get past some of my problems with it I truly think this could make therapy doable for me. Instead of being a confusing mass of disconnected interactions I have no recollection of.

I so wish I could go back and have some recordings of past T. So I could have more clarity about my patterns.

but employ my skills to stay within the window of tolerance.

This is what I need to do. I worked hard last time I had t to do this and I do think it paid off all in all in a relative terms. There were many successes. Just admitting I needed to get therapy at a place like that was such an achievement for me.

I can see someone helping me in the way you describe your T managing you would be very helpful for me. And I think this is the final deciding factor for me in deciding that online t is not going to be right for me right now in my life. The complex interaction you describe would not be possible if not in person I think.

We learn something new every session.

This is another thing I have been doing and been practising for the last couple of years. To see dissociation as helpful signposts of where the vulnerable points are for me. As a tool to understand myself better. It is enlightening. Even when the realisations are very unpalatable to me. Which is usually.

One thing I am grateful for is that I have never been someone to freak out about most of my dissociative symptoms. I mean in terms of thinking, "oh this is happening and it is awful!!!" I know that doing that just increases the symptoms. I am able to be quite accepting of them in the moment and not make it worse. Not surprising I guess considering I am someone who didn't even register them in the past.

The part I have no acceptance of is something I haven't discussed on the site yet. But with that I am not making it worse either as I have no idea I have done it until way after.

That doesn't mean to say that the whole thing does not bother me hugely on the whole of course. Just not in a panic-in-the-moment way. Not about the dissociation.

Dissociation is a prison made up of cells of avoidance. It takes a long time.

This is something I have been considering recently. I don't think I thought of myself as avoidant in the past because I am so single minded and determined. In the past I would barrel through things mercilessly. But more and more I have started realising how avoidant I really am. One has to barrel in the right direction and in order to do that there needs to be awareness of the problem in the first place! My levels of self delusion astound we looking back and even now I spend most of my time unable to tell what is truth, avoidance or plain delusion.

So the barrelling had to stop as it seems I had already got to the bottom of that barrel when it comes to its usefulness. Now I have to do everything counter intuitively. Carefully monitor emotions and reactions; carefully keep self awareness; carefully watch for responses and react accordingly - manage myself like some intricate and complex piece of equipment which just about makes me want to chop off my own head.

To have to deal with myself like this is nothing less than crazy making for someone who was used to treating my mind and body as the equivalent of a baseball bat.

 

[Abstract]

This thread has turned out to be invaluable in starting to break down some of the biggest difficulties that I had in believing I could manage therapy again. And to getting me to talk it through.

 

[BloomInWinter]

I'm so glad it's helpful to you. I hope you find deep healing and relief.

 

[Abstract]

Thanks Bloom. It helps an enormous amount to see ways that could manage by information losses and still do in person therapy! It gives me hope.