My Sister Masturbates In Our Shared Bed

[Lucycat]

I didn't think much of sharing a room with her until she started masturbating in our shared bed(which was originally MY bed) the past couple months.

This has not been going on for years. It is new. It has not been going on long enough for a PTSD diagnosis.
At ages 15 and 17 it is unlikely that abuse would be identified (in the UK anyway). There is no coercion, no authority figure, no 'involving' Elsa in the activity ( - and the sister turns her back) other than sharing the bed. They are teenage siblings who are very close in age.

I am a sexual abuse victim. I do sympathise. But in my mind this is NOT abuse. If this were me and my big sister - I would have told her to piss off! I could not do that to my abuser because he WAS authoritative, in control, and much older. Very Very different circumstances. Elsa declares to be very close to her sister. Thus she should be able to change things NOW!

 

[ill]

@Lucycat - I overlooked that, my apologies. Thank you for correcting me.

Elsa has told her sister to piss off:

I've made it clear to her how I feel about her doing this in our shared bed and she just plays dumb and blows me off every time.

Since confronting her about it doesn't do anything....

She's also spoken to her mother about it, to no avail.

This is my basic understanding and use of the term sexual abuse: Sexual abuse is forcing undesired sexual behaviour by one person upon another. Just as domestic abuse needn't involve one party being older than the other, sexual abuse needn't either (though, arguably, Elsa feels like her sister raised her and that two year age gap does count in Canada at certain age gaps). As far as I understand and am using it, abuse needn't require any power differential. One teenager raping another teenager who is the same age is a form of sexual abuse but is more commonly called sexual assault. It's abuse because there is a lack of consent. Masturbating in front of someone, even when your back is turned, is including them in your sexual activity. Doing the same when they've expressed that they want you to stop is abusive. That is why public flashers and masturbators are routinely arrested and charged for such behaviour. Because you are making someone a party to your sexual behaviour without their consent.

A single event can result in a diagnosis of PTSD, so I'm not sure why this behaviour "only" lasting several months should necessarily disqualify it?

 

[Lucycat]

so I'm not sure why this behaviour "only" lasting several months should necessarily disqualify it?

Because the symptoms need to be present for 3 months for the diagnosis to be made. So you are right it only need be a single event, but that event must be 3 months beforehand. Thus, I am not saying that she could not get PTSD in the future, just not a diagnosis yet.

I guess we can get hooked up on the whether it is abuse or not argument. If she went to the Police, would they investigate it (- Wow that was one hell of a Freudian typo - it showed on my screen as inCestigate!) I am not sure they would. I know of people with learning difficulties, for example, who masturbate in public. They are educated to help them understand appropriate behaviour, and are not prosecuted. I know of small children who masturbate in class. They are given distraction not punishment. Yes, there are also abusers and perverts, but there has to be the question of maturity, understanding and intent.

Does the sister do this to give herself pleasure, or to upset her sister? Is the sister mature and understanding of normal social concepts and boundaries? It sounds as if no-one except her little sister has told her it is inappropriate, and who would believe the little sister? In my experience older siblings tend to think they are right!

I absolutely agree it is inappropriate behaviour. I understand that the parents have been unhelpful, to say the least. I don't get why Elsa doesn't simply move into another room. We know there is a room, with a bed. Why not use it? Yes, the sister may then have won a battle to perhaps get the preferred bedroom, but it resolves the situation.

Would people have felt any differently about this situation if the siblings were 2 teenage brothers?

 

[Abstract]

I don't get why Elsa doesn't simply move into another room.

I suspect the answer here is that this family situation is unusual and Elsa (I hope it's OK discussing you like this Elsa) is emotionally dependent on her older sister. She is home schooled and lives on an island. In some ways she feels her sister brought her up which makes me wonder about parental involvement. The sisters are so enmeshed they are sleeping in the same bed at such a mature age. This isn't their fault and is rather an indication of the family dynamic.

When we are so dependent and isolated and something goes wrong in that relationship then it can feel devastating. Yes, she needs to move out of the room!

ill, it more likely than not to be being done because she wants to and has poor impulse control or understanding of others boundaries. That does not in any way make it OK but it wouldn't be abuse if she was not intending to cause discomfort for her sister or intend that her sister knows she is doing it.

I agree that the comments saying that she just feels comfortable and it is normal are way off. There are problems with boundaries in this family and Elsa is suffering the consequences.

I also wanted to say that Elsa has not claimed to have PTSD or claimed this is abuse and is merely discussing how difficult the situation is for her. I think we can afford to give a girl this age a little advise and I hope she gets some counselling so that she can process her family dynamic.

 

[ill]

@Abstract - I don't think Elsa's sister means to inflict trauma, but I also don't think that means it's not abusive. Violating another person's boundaries is abusive, by my measure. It doesn't matter why it's done, or that the intentions themselves aren't sinister. I also don't think it means she's a terrible, awful person. But I do think her behaviour is abusive, though I'm coming to understand that how we each define abuse is different.

To be quite honest, I don't believe it matters whether or not she has a diagnosis of PTSD. I guess to me it seems superfluous. I care that it's traumatizing and uncomfortable and it seems like Elsa really needs help. I also know how very difficult it is to reach out for help and for Elsa to have done so twice is really brave and I have honestly not understood the responses she's being met with. I know that this touches on uncomfortable things for me, and I think of people I know who've experienced inappropriate familial relationships, reached out (as we're told to!), been met with a lack of support and never reached out again. The consequences were devastating, not only to the individual but it reverberated throughout their later relationships in a negative way. On the one hand, I get that she doesn't have a diagnosis of PTSD, but on the other, it seems like this could be a perfect place for her to ask for help in order to avoid it.

One of my concerns is that even if Elsa moves out of the room, her sister may follow. We can further suggest a lock on the door, but another concern of mine is that it's a tricky thing to enforce boundaries with someone who doesn't want to respect them even as an adult and Elsa is not an adult. She doesn't have much of a support system. How does she change the patterns while keeping herself safe? As an adult, I can leave. Elsa doesn't have the same options as I do. I am also concerned about the part where her sister looks at her while masturbating. I think that can be interpreted multiple ways, but my concern is the possibility that the looking could be intended as an invitation.

I don't know that the police would investigate such an occurrence, but I also don't think police always get it right. A 17 year old masturbating in front of a sister who's asked her to stop multiple times (Elsa mentions "every time" she's tried to talk to her about it) is not the same as a learning disabled individual or a child masturbating in public, and as you noted @Lucycat, even then efforts are made to correct the behaviour. I would feel the same if Elsa and her sister were two teenage boys, even if they were twins without an age difference beyond a few minutes. My concern is that it's not only Elsa who needs help but her sister too. I sent her RAINN"s contact info yesterday in the hopes that they may be able to advise her on how to handle this because, honestly, I don't know how I would handle it if I were a child. I guess the biggest problem I've had with this whole thing is that Elsa has attempted to erect assertive boundaries with her sister and her sister, for whatever reasons, is choosing to ignore them. It seems I'm in a minority here, but I think that is problematic in a way that can't be accounted for by simple immaturity or lack of understanding and I don't regard this as being at all innocuous. If she can't respect that boundary - which is a super easy one to respect! - then why would she respect the boundary of a new bedroom? How do you enforce your boundaries with a trusted and beloved sister who doesn't want to respect them in a home where a mother has made light of them?

For now, I need to bow out but I just wanted to explain myself further/better/more clearly because I think my responses earlier (while being true to how I think and feel) were very emotional, potentially triggered and likely unclear responses and I don't want to be rude or disrespectful to anyone.

 

[Lucycat]

and then randomly she'll lay down on her side and pull the blanket over her head like shes going to sleep or something and turn and face her back to me .

Sometimes she'll turn her head to look at me every so often.. to see if I'm noticing I guess.

she usually just looks embarrassed and stares at me like she doesn't know how to respond before coming up with some half-assed excuse.

It does not sound to me like she is doing this deliberately to upset her sister. Furtive, embarrassed?

Since confronting her about it isn't effective I've been getting up and sleeping in her old room on the unmade bed (it's just a mattress no sheets pillows blankets or nothing)

So why not move your stuff into this room and make it yours? There is no mention of the sister invading this room at all.

she also comes to me for advice and tells me about everything so she's told me about how she's having sex all the time with her 9 month boyfriend (he's the first guy she's had sex with)

It changes my perspective on our relationship.

Is this simply a case of little sister being jealous of big sister's new relationship? ( With big sister having raging hormones)

The reason I go on about the relevance of a PTSD diagnosis, is quite simply because this is a PTSD forum. Not a sibling-advice forum. Not an appropriate behaviour forum. Not a masturbation forum. Not even a PTSD-Prevention forum. It is for people who have or support another with PTSD. This does not dismiss or belittle Elsa's predicament. Advice has been given.

To summarise. Masturbation is normal and healthy. Sharing beds as teenage sisters is not.

 

[Justmehere]

Elsa... there must be a reason why you are reaching out for support here. I think maybe some people are a little baffled why you posted here, as compared to some events, this is less traumatic. However, what is going on is a sign of really bad boundaries and that is often a sign of other things going on. It sounds like some intense stuff is going on with your parents and your sister is acting it out - a pattern common in dysfunctional families. I would agree that masturbation isn't abnormal, but sharing a bed as teenagers when there is room to not have to do that (i.e. it is not out of lack of beds or space) and your sister doing it so openly is a sign there are some seriously distressing problems. I'm very concerned things will escalate too. I'm also concerned you don't have any adults you feel like you can trust. I would highly support the idea of calling RAINN or even talking to someone on their online chat hotline. I have gone to them with questions similar to this and they helped a lot.

 

[Philippa]

I'm a little disturbed that moderators here are telling this person that she is somehow inhibited sexually because she doesn't like her sister masturbating next to her! What the hell is that about? Her sister is being inappropriate. What about that is not obvious?

Whilst masturbation is normal and natural, it would definitely be disturbing to have that happen next to you. The girls choice is clear...she needs to have her own room seperate from her sister. I would think that would be something I'd do without needing to call on a forum of people for advice though. Maybe Elsa doesn't want advice though...just to vent?

Trying to make her feel like she has issues with her sexuality because she doesn't like her sister masturbating right next to her is a little weird frankly.

I used to do the same thing as a girl, with my brothers next to me on long car drives etc. For me it was about getting away with it. That made it exciting to me. I never got caught though, and I'm sure they didn't know, as I never made it as obvious as her sister is making it. It is probably normal teenage behaviour, but of course it would be weird for her to be aware of this happening.

So she came to the wrong forum for help...so what? We have allowed other people to stay here who don't have a formal diagnosis of ptsd, and this girl clearly is experiencing boundary issues with her sister. Chasing her away is a little bit unfriendly to say the least. It's starting to feel like a clique.

I also seem to be seeing a lot of people here turning every single issue that is presented into a case of abuse vs non abuse...and turning it into some kind of debate? Half the time the person asking isn't even asking if it is abuse or not...and they leave before the topic is concluded.

What is going on here?

 

[digger]

Are people chasing her away? I think most people have taken into consideration that she is only 15 and given her advice accordingly, even if it doesn't relate to PTSD. Recommending other forums where someone might get more appropriate advice than on a more specialised forum like this one, I thought would be helpful.

 

[Lucycat]

What is going on here?

Can you expand on this question further?

 

[Philippa]

Are people chasing her away?

It felt that way from my end. It seems elsa felt that way as well from her responses.

I think most people have taken into consideration that she is only 15 and given her advice accordingly, even if it doesn't relate to PTSD. Recommending other forums where someone might get more appropriate advice than on a more specialised forum like this one, I thought would be helpful.

Maybe you're right. It just sounded a little unfriendly at first sight, that's all.

 

[Philippa]

Can you expand on this question further?

I don't really feel like I need to expand on it. It's a pretty straightforward question.

I'm seeing people turn things into debates about whether the behaviour is abusive quite regularly lately, even after the person has left the conversation, when it was not suggested by the OP. This seems a little off to me, that's all.