News The God Debate

[The Albatross]

Peter Hitchens (Christopher Hitchens brother) discusses his experience. There is also a two hour or so debate where the brothers debate God:

The two Hitchens brothers debate God and War:

Who was the victor? Neither, both.

 

[Muzikluvr]

We, believers, are aliens in a foreign land. For instance. My home is not here, my home is after my body dies. I don't have a problem with this.

I have a problem with this outlook when it is applied to people who are suffering here on earth, as those in Calcutta did under Mother Teresa's care.

• What is most interesting though is that the 500+ missions that she opened were described as “homes for the dying”. Two thirds of the people who came to these homes hoped to find a doctor to treat them, while the other third received no treatment and lay dying without appropriate care. The doctors questioned observed a shocking lack of hygiene, unfit conditions, a shortage of actual care, inadequate food and no painkillers. The problem was not a lack of money because hundreds of millions of dollars were raised by Mother Teresa’s ministry, but rather a particular perception of suffering and death. She saw something beautiful in the poor accepting their lot, suffering like Christ, and viewed their dying as sharing in Christ’s passion. She believed the world gained much from the suffering of the poor.

• My suggestion is that this is not unusual, but a dominant theme in Christianity and the church. I have experienced it and even lived by it. I’ve endured things without attempting to change it because it was my duty to suffer long. Rather than take responsibility for my life and become the master of my own destiny, I surrendered my life out of my hands and willingly tolerated pain longer than necessary. If we believe our affliction comes from God and is like Christ, who are we to mess with it?

Both Excerpts from: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nakedpastor/2013/07/mother-teresa-and-the-fatal-love-of-suffering/

How many of us are suffering needlessly because our subconscious minds have been chained, restricted... we are not allowed to think certain things because they are irreverent, sacrilege, or bordering on it? How many of us might be able to free our minds and use them to solve our own problems if only we would allow ourselves to go there? How many of us would rather contemplate suicide, maybe even attempt it, or start cutting ourselves to relieve the pain, than feel irreverent regarding our personal God?

Next is a clip from Youtube regarding William Lane Craig's defense of genocide of the Canaanites. His argument is that,

• because God is good, what he commands is good. God decides what is good, we don't decide that.

He goes on to explain that

• the innocent children were blessed to be the recipients of an infinite good as a result of their earthly days being terminated.

He explains these things at 6:52.

TRIGGER WARNING: At 9:44 This clip ends with scenes from what appears to be the tsunami that struck Sumatra, Indonesia in 2004, as the artist who assembled the footage attempted to make the deeds written in the bible, realistic for us. While, at the same time, he played the lovely children's nursery rhyme "The animals go two by two, hurrah hurrah" in the background. The gore begins with the song, so if you need to look away... that would be the time.

On the other hand, this is the Jewish-Muslim-Christian god, if He is your God, you might want to understand him better, see what he's capable of. The story of Noah's ark is taught in Christian nursery school. There is a new movie about it coming soon, sure to be graphic given Hollywood's love of CGI and violence.

This is where Pascal's Wager may come into play... what am I risking by believing in this God and worshiping him as he asks? Vs. What will he do to me if I don't?

And, THAT is where I equated religion to abuse.

That is not the spirit in which I communed with my personal god. That was nothing like my personal god... except, I was afraid to reject him. I even thought he would strike me dead in some way when I first told someone else that I don't believe in him. I thought we would have an accident, as I was driving at the time. I thought my kids would die and when they did, I might think it was God that made it happen. I thought that if anyone knew that I don't believe in God, then when something bad happens in my life, they may tsk at me and ask me if I think that it's time to return to the church.

Fear is a motivator.

 

[TimeToHeal]

What if......we just don't know all the answers yet?

What if the notion of a god, any god.....only serves to comfort the many who just aren't able to handle that some questions don't have known answers yet....and some may never?

 

[Go Hungry]

Okay, wow. I had a nice post made up but it looks like this thread turned ugly real fast. Guess I'll put it somewhere else..

 

[Muzikluvr]

It's difficult to discuss this topic, but worthy of discussion. Many people change their minds about God during times of great distress. This thread is a relevant topic to our recovery. .. difficult though it is to maintain.

 

[Tinyflame]

I apologize, I wasn't clear. I am consoled by the sheep analogy, I meant I do not follow 'mindlessly' without intellect as the western characture of a sheep. I actually read a great book once- "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" - sheep get themselves in a whole lot of trouble. Frankly, they even act like they have ptsd/ flight issues! :wideyed:

I think the World Trade Centre etc tragedy is as I said before-fanatics. Seeking a purpose & not fulfilling one & feeling their actions will compensate. Not 'religion'- but anger, hatred & rage.

Far as I know, Mother Teresa did not find suffering on it's own beautiful, she said those who suffer were 'God in distressing disguise". When someone said they wouldn't do what she did for a million dollars, she said "I don't blame you, neither would I". Many were shocked she expressed doubt & fear & feelings God was not there. Is that surprising, surrounded by what she saw, the suffering, I don't think so. She spoke once of taking a crippled mother out of a garbage can after her son had dumped her there. Again, I can relate. Hard questions. Even harder realities. My mother met her. She was far more complex than what people knew. Most 80+ year old would/ could never keep up with the physical demands of what she did alone. She tried to alleviate needs, I ask more importantly "what do 'I' do?"

I would rather chance that something I do, or saying a prayer for someone, might help them. If not, nothing is lost than my time. I'd hate to find out I could have done something & didn't however, because of my doubts or fears. In fact, learning to trust in God +/or God's existence has been instrumental in learning to (when appropriate) trust others for me.

 

[anthony]

Okay, wow. I had a nice post made up but it looks like this thread turned ugly real fast.

Because people tend to get all angry, bitter and twisted when their belief system is not worshipped by all others as it is by themselves. People too often lose sight, IMHO, between discussion and shoving their belief system down others throats through defensive measures.

 

[Lionheart]

When I was a young boy of about 12 or 13 years old I had a connection with nature and with the Creator and it was the best most awesome relationship in the world to me, then came abuse trauma and I lost that connection.

I have great difficulty discussing "God" because the word brings up preconceived notions of a jealous, punishing entity that is more in tune with evil than with nature, so I have chosen for the purpose of my own growth to call God, "The Creator" and this has been the single most helpful thing that I have found to further my spirituality and my PTSD recovery.

When I dispose of the word 'God' and instead use the term 'Creator' it helps me to re-establish that original connection that I had when I was a kid.......in other words, it restores my faith!

As I grew older and used the term 'God', it became apparent that what I thought was God was more like an anti-God and I had to totally disconnect with religion in order to progress spiritually. So, in that sense religion did confuse the issues for me and make recovery more difficult until I began using the term, The Creator.

It is funny and sad, to me, that something so simple as a name can stunt someones growth, (whether it be recovery work or spirituality), but when I discuss the Creator I have a rush of exhilaration and spiritual strength whereas when you mention God, I shrink in fear and confusion.

So anyway, I hope I am adding something of value and relevance to the discussion about the God debate. I think this is a wonderful thread, but I do think people tend to get a little twisted when it comes to religion. I also think that if we focus on spirituality as opposed to religion we can make greater progress with our recovery work and this then is my 2 cents, please take it for what it is.

 

[Go Hungry]

I'll give it another shot. I was raised southern-fried baptist, and told that God would help those who believed in him. But trying to live a christian life actually turned backwards and hurt me very badly, eventually becoming flat out disastrous. God didn't live up to the hype, didn't save me. Without going into too much depth, belief in God and fear of damnation for the sin of Wrath was directly involved in my first splitting. I'll have to try and explain that in my ongoing thread. But religion was very much involved in my illness.

Though I'm functionally an atheist nowadays, there are other parts of me which have found other gods. King Da, of Voodoo myth. The Great Tao. A very different version of Jesus, who many find utterly blasphemous. An ocean goddess, who I call Meredith. And most of all, Sweet Kali Ma, the Black Pearl of Night. These gods bonded with different people inside of me. To make it work, I came up with a sort of meta-religion. To me, the Divine is like a great, infinitely faceted jewel. It's almost impossible to grasp in it's entirety, so the gods, the facets, serve as interfaces between man and the Divine. There are as many facets as there need to be, and they are all true, to the individuals trying to interface.

So I believe in all the gods, and consequently, none of them.

But as far as politics goes, I am adamant that logic and science be the only factors that people choose when coming up with policy. We cannot go around trying to base laws on what are essentially fantasies. It has never, EVER worked out well.

So that's me.

 

[Nebulustrix]

God is defined by religion. When you speak of Him, you speak of the one you still believe in.

I know I'm not keeping up and I haven't really been reading everything that has been going back and forth here, but I just wanted to comment on this and offer a possible alternative approach:

God exists (or doesn't exist) outside religion. However, we ascribe ourselves to a particular religion when we feel that it accurately describes God (or the lack thereof). There are many arguments out there that God is a creation of religion, but if that were true He wouldn't really be God, would He? Just a figurative entity created within the minds of believers. Perhaps you may think this is all God is...

If someone REALLY wants to find answers to the question "Is there a God?", I feel it is important to step ALL the way back and take a moment to forget everything any religion may have taught you about the nature of God. Start looking at the world scientifically and ask yourself if you believe everything could have come about by chance or if there had to be someone/something to push things along. Your answer to that question will tell you whether or not you believe in the existence of a God.

There is nothing that can prove or disprove the existence of God. If there is a God - He exists outside the realm of physical matter and we have no means we can use to measure His presence scientifically. It's like dark matter or strings in the theoretical physics world - their existence cannot be proven or disproven because we have no method of measurement for detecting their presence. Eventually, we may find a way, but for now these things remain theoretical. The same goes with God - so you must approach your outlook on the world with a basic assumption - either He exists or He does not. (or She or It, etc - I use "He" out of personal preference)

Once you decide which assumption you are going to take, you then take any and all supporting or anecdotal evidence you may have as a foundation for your belief and then build on it - seeking out more information, clarification, and a better understanding and definition of God (or His lack).

One need not necessarily agree with ANY religion to continue searching out a "definition" of God. Simply start taking into account any and all information YOU deem to be credible "research" or "evidence" of His nature (again, or the lack thereof). Examine also information you consider faulty and determine WHY you don't find it credible. Before simply writing something off as a bad source, search it out for biases, faulty reasoning, etc - and search out your own thoughts and feelings to determine if you are viewing the information with a tinted bias.

I would only ascribe myself to a religion AFTER I was certain of my own personal definition of God and would then align with whichever religion matched my view. If I could not find one that matched, I would not ascribe myself to any religion, because I feel it can be emotionally and spiritually damaging to call yourself a Catholic, or Jew, or Buddhist, or Taoist, etc and try to follow their belief systems when you don't really agree with what they believe.

I, personally, believe in the existence of God, but I often find myself agreeing with arguments made against His existence because those arguments are usually based on a definition of His nature that I consider to be faulty. Because nobody can prove whether or not He exists, and because everyone's foundational view of the world is dependent upon their belief for or against that existence, no arguments (typically) will ever convince anyone to start or stop believing once they have chosen their basic assumption. These arguments can, however, aid us in refining our understanding and definition of God so that we can accurately ascribe ourselves to a religion that fits our personal views, should we find such a religion. And if you can not find one that matches your view of God, then you simply should not join one.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I also think that if we focus on spirituality as opposed to religion we can make greater progress with our recovery work and this then is my 2 cents, please take it for what it is.

Thank you for your contribution, Lionheart. I am at a point now in my recovery, that I am wondering if what I term "connection" is actually spirituality... or actually, I'm wondering the opposite... if Spirituality is connection. I know that there are a ton of people who don't like to be around other people, and reject the idea of needing a connection with them. However, I feel a connection with people, nature and myself that I never felt when I was Christian. I felt that connection with God, exclusively. I was "alien".

Yesterday, I imagined moving to Montana. It is a wide open state. There are rolling pastures as far as the eye can see. But then, I thought... I couldn't live so isolated "I like people" and it is a breakthrough for me. How did I change from often thinking "I hate people"? I knew I didn't really hate them, but I never thought in a private moment that I like them, in general. People can be so cruel to one another, and have been, collectively, to me. But, now my mind says "I like people". What's changed?

I have.

I understand that people need their autonomy, their independence. I need them to be independent. If they can blame their actions, their words, their thoughts on someone else; then they won't even see that they're wrong because they have agreement with someone they admire, care about, or revere. They don't need to consider reality, they have connection with those who matter to them. If that person isn't even human, than what hope is there that they will consider the human condition appropriately? They might say "Well, that's just how it is", when it's not that way unless they believe it is that way, or are surrounded by people who believe it is that way.

The connection we have among one another creates our perception. That is the truth! That is why when you are raised to believe you are worthless, you find that others agree with it...even when they don't know the people who taught you that... and it's because YOU carry that belief.

If "God" or "the Creator" is omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful, might he be in that connection between and among us all? Maybe the creator is the universe. Maybe we were born of the Big Bang, and whatever happened before then as well. Maybe the fact that the chemical bonds that make up our bodies, and our ability to share ideas with one another, is our spirituality. And, maybe when people were unable to understand so much of our world, they understood that feeling of connection and called it spirituality. They gave reason for it by calling it god, and then they gave motive to god and created religion.

I cannot know the Creator better if I cannot know individual people better. When people are brainwashed in childhood to believe certain things that are based on the beliefs of a people who have been proven wrong time and again... then, all I get to know is their covert selves... that part of them that disagrees or naughtily disobeys the scriptures they've been taught. If you are part of the link in my spirituality, then what you think is valuable to me. I would never ask you to stop thinking and follow me. I would never tell you that you will be punished for eternity if you aren't special enough to get through a narrow doorway and live forever.

The end of life is hard enough without imagining that I might be burned, tortured and abused for all eternity. To think that this was it for me, my only chance to experience any freedom from pain... and I spent part of my life being tortured and abused already! I even volunteered for much of the abuse, clinging to the concepts of family ties, religious obligation, and that god was my only real connection. I will have a hard enough time letting go of life when it is time to die. I don't want to miss a thing! I never have wanted to be excluded. I don't want to say goodbye to my children, or my husband, but I don't want to miss the opportunity to say goodbye either.

To think that I am special enough that god would choose me to enter Heaven is pretentious, proud. I'm better than... how many other souls? How many souls have there been since people introduced the idea of there being a heaven? How many does heaven hold? How many is "a small number"? If god is the Christian god, then surely he's looking for zealots. Why would he take someone who didn't follow all of his rules, but instead defended homosexuals? Why would he take me over a committed Christian who studies their faith and preaches their faith to others? Should I find a new religion? One where I can agree with the god, so I can believe that I will live forever?

What if, the most precious thing about my life is that it has an unknown, but definite expiration date?

 

[Muzikluvr]

And if you can not find one that matches your view of God, then you simply should not join one.

Much of what you describe is a good method by which to prove yourself correct. You first make your choice based on basic information, and then you seek information that supports your choice and if you don't find it you keep looking until you find something that matches it close enough.

What of reality? What of the physical world in which we live? Much of one's connection with god is within one's own mind, one's imagination. I have a very active imagination. I have lived a very lively spiritual life, one that has filled me with connection that I needed, that sustained me while my family raised me with their preferred beliefs which scapegoated me. But, what if I'd never been introduced to the concept of a god? Would I have sought connection with real people? Would I have established a connection with myself, with my environment?

Your method works for allowing people to live their lives as closely to what matches their beliefs as possible. Because we all seek connection, we will all choose some group of people who mostly agree with us. But, when people choose religions which indoctrinate their children, then we have a world full of children - until they decide that maybe they were deceived (either maliciously or erroneously). Once they decide that maybe they should question their beliefs, then they begin down the path you describe.

But, what god allows us to choose him? I suppose you could say they all do! But, if we choose wrong, we will most certainly go to hell. When we devote our lives to choosing the right religion, we bet pretty heavily on the afterlife. We cannot measure what we sacrificed when we spent our lives imagining the afterlife, imagining a relationship with god, and missed the connections with other people here on earth.... missed the rational contributions we could have made to humanity.

We cannot yet know if there is a god, but we will never know if we settle on accepting our ignorance.