News The God Debate

[Muzikluvr]

she said those who suffer were 'God in distressing disguise".

I understand this analogy. I appreciate what it does for our perspective. I enjoy the song "What if God were one of us?". I'm deeply saddened that we seem to need to KNOW or believe we know someone before we will recognize their value when they seem decrepit, or hopelessly lost... or in my case, I was told several times throughout my life that I was "beyond" others ability to help me. It's interesting to me that I only got worse from there, and looking back I wondered what would I be like if only someone had stopped it sooner... but, apparently, I was beyond help at the point that I was raped... once.

My questions are regarding what life would be like for us if we weren't replacing "God" with our connection to others, what if we were singing songs and initiating charity because we recognized that we are all connected. Not only will we be helping ourselves by helping others, but we will be helping many people around those people whom we will never know and that kindness will ripple through our society. I know there are many, many people who have been negatively impacted by my family's decision to conceal the abuse. My enablers like to think it was just me, but I have been told by those whose hearts were broken by my inability to connect with my surroundings, to add them to the list of victims of the terrible crimes I was subjected to.

I believe that it doesn't take God for us to feel connected to others. It is a wonderful analogy, it really solidifies the connection, but it is another device to affect our behavior... and I submit that it is a device with limits and those limits are ultimately damaging to our society. We need to know that our spirituality is affected by connecting with others and/or our environment. Connecting with God for our spiritual sake, distracts us from humanity and that's why we need to consider that God may be in distressing disguise before we consider helping the decrepit... also... there is a very real issue of being infected. We cannot deny that our ancestors who survived to birth us, must have avoided the plague among other pox on our society. Science helps us to understand how diseases are communicated, so we can take precautions to help those who are suffering. Wouldn't it be nice if we could figure out how child sexual abuse is transmitted, so people would stop turning away from victims because the victims know too much and may teach their own children the wrong messages? (Just another example of the kind of irrational responses I received when in need).

If you're sitting in your home, only connecting with this forum, you are missing out on your own perspective, and so are we. Your perspective is outside of yourself, it is created by connecting with MANY different parts of life. When you isolate yourself from the many various experiences in life, where you could connect with others and your environment in a variety of ways, then you narrow your connections to the point that you feel quite lonely. If we all come to a consensus and none of us contribute new experiences, what will we have to discuss? If all we discuss is the past traumas and their impact on our lives, how will we generate new experiences to affect our perspectives? We will be drowning in our abuser's impact on our lives, and the perspective the abusers gave us. We need to connect with others and our environment to maintain our sanity, our mental health. We cannot just sit at home and connect with God, who understands us, who forgives us, who knows us, who has a plan for us, etc...

We cannot go to church and connect with others, if we cannot ask questions and receive open, honest, thoughtful, thought-provoking, responses from those around us. When I was a child, I asked, "How did the bible become a sacred book?" and one person whispered "What you really should ask, is "How did they decide which authors to include and which ones not to include." and he was berated by others in the lobby...well, shamed, shushed. Apparently I wasn't old enough to be exposed to doubts outside of my own. We need to connect our REAL selves in order to feel connected to each other, instead of connecting to god who connects us to others. Through god, we connect to humanity... this is harmful to our society. We don't even know who god is! We admit that we don't know. We have many religions! We have many beliefs about Him, Her, or It. Why are we connecting through god, instead of encouraging our children and elders to speak their minds, ask their questions and ponder the universe?

 

[Muzikluvr]

For the record, Christopher Hitchens had esophageal cancer and recanted his position. I know this because I am familiar with his position on other issues. Link (but probably not the best source, just what I could find at the moment as I'm dealing by phone with scheduling issues):

I can't think of a better article to prove my point about Christianity and those who claim to know it best. I hope everyone will click on this link and read what the article says.

But, I will quote the relevant part here...

• Did Christopher Hitchens really convert on his deathbed? While I would love to hear that he came to know Christ before he died, the answer is: No, he almost certainly did not have a “deathbed conversion.” Of course, no one can know what he may have thought in his private moments, but he has been very consistent about his views on God–even until recent days.
  
  The reason I even mention deathbed conversion is because when this news broke, many of the atheists on a forum were saying, “Now all the Christians will spread lies saying he had a deathbed conversion.”
  
  - See more at: http://www.revelation.co/2011/12/16...hristian-before-he-died/#sthash.NHbNX6YI.dpuf

I would guess, and this is just from what I believe for myself, and from a description Neil deGrasse Tyson gave of what his death experience might be like... that Christopher Hitchens was very sad to be dying, was regretful of some things he didn't do and won't get to do, but is very happy that he will be returned to the soil and his body will decompose and return to our environment... and he was very glad that he won't be burning in hell for an eternity, nor praising god for an eternity.

This article is DRIPPING with Christian sadness for any dying atheist. It is quite a good representation of what prevents many people from considering turning away from all that they know and love, just because they don't agree with some Crusade or genocide or radical part of the religion. There are many ways of silencing our thoughts on a subject, and one is to make it too confusing to wade through. Couple that with capturing one's whole family and community so anyone who turns away will be cajoled, guilt-tripped or bullied to return... and you have a religion that lasts for generations longer than reason permits.

 

[Tinyflame]

I'm not quite sure I understand, where is it assumed in connecting or believing in God or something/ someone larger or outside of ourselves prevents, limits or replaces our connections to one another? Does it have to be either-or? Others' beliefs (believing in atheism as well) personally have no bearing either on my connections to them, or them to me, it's irrelevant to me. Perhaps our differences enhance one another.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but somewhere black-and-white/ all-or-nothing beliefs here seem to be coming in to play, or is it just me? I apologize if so, but there seems to be circular reasoning here. I think live & let live. I welcome the differences. Even if one rejects the idea of something larger, & therefore rejects any thoughts that such beliefs enhance life, why is it assumed such (or any, or much, or no beliefs) self-limit life?

I'm not sure if if one loves people & that leads to a love of God, or some love God & that leads to loving people, or some do not believe in God but love people, or some love God & in their way appreciate people more, then does it matter? It's like saying, if one person goes through a field, another over the mountains, but they end up at the same destination, does it even matter?

I think one should be true to their own heart, and live & let live. If their beliefs (of any kind) are sound, respectful, thoughtful, kind & loving, their actions will show that.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Chris Hitchens, a very rational man, didn't hold prayer people in contempt.

Last night, when I saw your posts on how much you know about Christopher Hitchens, and that you'd posted a link to an article about his deathbed conversion, and videos of him talking about God while he's dying of cancer... I didn't have time to follow the links.

I went to bed shaken, a bit, by the idea that someone so sure in his perception of reality would convert like that... and what did it mean. I fell asleep on the thought, "We all make mistakes." We are all human. We are all capable of having weak moments. We all have doubts.

Earlier today, I still didn't have time to look at the links and I began thinking about the role indoctrination has on those of us who deconverted from a religion to atheism. There is a guy on Twitter who openly discusses nonbelief with people on a videocast. He was never indoctrinated. He makes a very good argument against religion, and he does it very calmly. Why would he choose to spend his time talking about religion at all, when he wasn't brought up with it and he doesn't believe in god? That, is how interwoven religion is in our society. He is affected by it, despite the fact that his parents raised him as a freethinker and he doesn't believe in god, because it affects society's ability to reason and that affects his life.

But, he cannot understand MY emotional response to what religion has done to my life. He doesn't feel that fear of going to hell or not going to heaven to be with loved ones. He just thinks the whole thing sounds like nonsense, and though he respects people's choice to believe, much like Chris Hitchens does in this video clip, he isn't affected by doubts the way I am. That's because my beliefs were created in childhood, when I believed those fables in the bible were real... even if my mom said they didn't really happen. How did she know they didn't happen? How does she know what is and is not real in the bible? The bible doesn't preface it's fables with "Now here's a story that might help you understand... but it didn't really happen."

So, I thought, "If Chris Hitchens switched sides on his deathbed, then perhaps his indoctrination got the better of him while his senses were impaired." And, it's very nice to see that he makes a similar statement in the video.. that he may be susceptible to irrationality once he is no longer lucid.

I found your video selection to be quite relevant, not only to this thread but to this forum as it mentions suicide, cancer, and "closure". It is a thought-provoking interview.

 

[Go Hungry]

But, what god allows us to choose him? I suppose you could say they all do! But, if we choose wrong, we will most certainly go to hell.

Who says you have to believe in Hell? I honestly think the concept of Hell is itself one of the most dangerous ideas mankind ever came up with. I know it certainly fracked me up! :dead: But there are many religions out there that have no concept of Hell built into them. Many. Paganism comes to mind, though that's more an umbrella term for many religions than it is one in itself.

I personally do believe in Hell, of a sort. To me, it's a place of redemption. The idea is that everyone goes to Hell, Everyone. Whether saint or sinner or sandwich artist; everybody is going to burn. There you suffer all the pain you caused in your time on Earth. Every tear you created will be shed again, by you. At the same time, you will also experience every smile you brought to the world, every laugh or feeling of love and tenderness. You will know the full weight of your actions, both good and bad. It will be you who judges yourself on whether or not you led a worthy life. After that.. well, after that I'm thinking that the Sweet Mother will take you into her arms, which are Heaven themselves, and eventually carry you on to the next life.

So that's the afterlife for me. Damnation and Ascension, both inescapable.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I think live & let live. I welcome the differences.

I quite agree.

There are many places in my community and on the forum where it is appropriate to discuss one's faith in god, I have yet to feel comfortable anywhere else expressing my faith in humanity.

I have never been quite sure that I titled my thread appropriately, but I continue to find reasons to be glad I posted it the way I did. I enjoy the conversation, though it does frighten me at times. I could have put "The God Delusion" as the title of the thread, but I haven't read that book. I did watch a great video on youtube.

Really though, I don't know what is best for society. I don't think I have the answer. I just truly believe that the discussion should be had by more than just scientists and religious scholars. I think that we shouldn't just trust people because they seem to have more knowledge about a subject. I think that every person on the planet can contribute some bit of logic, of wisdom, which would help us understand what it is that we feel that we have named spirituality. And so, I think the conversation is important.

Live and let live, of course! I'm not going around telling everyone I know that they shouldn't be Christians or believe in God anymore. If you are reading this thread, then you have invited this conversation into your life. You may leave it or remain as you choose. I am not pushing you to consider these things. I'm offering my thoughts, and you have accepted my invitation to listen.

 

[TimeToHeal]

@Junebug, perhaps you then, are an exception. Many, many religions (or their followers), are very discriminatory, non welcoming, non accepting, of others who not ascribe to the same beliefs as themselves. Which therefore, limits those with whom one may find a connection to.

I think that religion - in general - is very limiting, almost segregating. I think we have come to agree here that there are several different, separate, gods, worshipped by different people, groups of people, religions - they can't ALL be right, can they? Many religious people, or believers, or whatever you prefer to call them, reject those of other religions. Even between different denominations of Christianity for example, are different ideas, or perceptions, of what is accepted by their god. For example - Episcopalians tend to be quite welcoming of gays, even "allowing" gay ministers, whereas your baptists absolutely deplore homosexuality, believe it is the work of the devil, and all homosexuals will be banished to hell for all of eternity. How can the same "holy book" be interpreted in such vastly different ways?

How can one explain or defend those who deny their children basic medical care and treatment due to their belief that, "god will heal them"? In the news recently was a family (forgive me, as I do not recall their exact location) who refused to take their son, who was suffering from severe, acute appendicitis, to the doctor or hospital. They kept him at home and prayed over him that god would heal his sickness. And when his appendix ruptured and he died a horrible, painful death, they proclaimed "it was just gods will". Is this an example of good people doing bad things in the name of their religion - or were these really bad people, doing bad things?

And the suicide bombers who truly believe they are sacrificing themselves - and taking a number of others with them - for the greater good, because they believe they were chosen by their god to do his work. How can this be accepted?

Cannot any behavior, event, disaster, crime, etc., be excused, accepted, or explained away by simply claiming "it was just gods will"?

 

[Tinyflame]

Thanks @TimeToHeal , I hear you. I think beliefs should increase personal accountability, objectivity, introspection, love, care & respect for others, & inclusion, not foster or justify the opposite.

For example, I am inclined to be judgemental of judgemental people. I still have to work on it, there is no difference to who I judge, I am still in the wrong.

This is what I mean by fanatics. An equal example could be anyone- nothing to do with religion- such as a renegade cop, not indicative necessarily of the many but a few can do unlimited harm.

It still reminds me of the saying, "if you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does it have?" The answer remains 4. No matter what anyone uses as an illegitimate excuse (& justification) for something wrong, it remains so. These justifications are man-made. I had a middle eastern friend say after 911 that their religion did not believe in harming a living tree, let alone suicide-bombing. (ie, call it what it is, mass murder). :(

I've had psychopaths & attempted rapists & stalkers 'explain' to me 'why' they did what they did or are justified. (And how it was'my fault', often). In their sick heads, maybe, but no one sane (including the police) agreed.

 

[Deleted member 20280]

I have watched this thread since it's posting.

I have stopped myself from replying until now.

As @anthony put in an earlier reply.....

People too often lose sight, IMHO, between discussion and shoving their belief system down others throats through defensive measures.

I am a practicing Christian, when asked what denomination I am I reply simply, I am a Christian. Doctrine and religious beliefs aside for me being a Christian is just that . A follower of Christ.

I have never and will never 'Shove my beliefs' down anyone throat.

As for the initial quote from whoever quoted it. IMHO religion and a faith belief do not make good people do bad things. Bad people do bad things because they chose to.

Religions across the planet are guilty of harboring deviant behavioral by it's members. That does not make the religion or the majority of its followers inherently Bad.

In all walks of life there are Bad people doing Bad things to Good People. Good people like us on the forum.

Laurie

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I believe in the Creator. I also believe that a lot of harm has been done in the name of God and I agree that people have complete free will to make their choices good or bad.

I do not believe in churches or religion. I see that as doing more harm than good. Many of them practice cult thinking and ways of being.

We are all on a journey. I like to think that Hell is a place where there is no Denial of Reality. I do not know what to think of heaven, I have no ideas on that.

I do believe I have a soul and a spirit.

I do not preach my faith. Too many people have been burned and branded by churches and religion.

I understand that many of the words and names of Christianity are trigger words in my experience.

I believe the Christian Church is a dying breed.

I call myself a believer. But I also respect others for not believing.

I have read about other religons and found wisdom in all of them.

There are so many things about religion that turn my stomach.

I am learning how to accept people who have open minds. I am learning how to become healthier.

When I have questions about a spiritual life, my answers come from within.

The unexamined life is not worth living in my opinion.

 

[Nebulustrix]

Much of what you describe is a good method by which to prove yourself correct.

I'd like to clarify that it is not really seeking to prove anything. Religion, belief, faith, spirituality - these things are very different from science. They approach a very different question. Science tells us HOW the world works. Faith/belief tells us WHY. And WHY is basically impossible to measure, impossible to quantify, impossible to prove. There will be many explanations for "why" the world works the way it does simply because there are so very many different people with different backgrounds and different levels of understanding.

So in my (or anyone's) quest to define God, it is important to remember that there is never going to be any certainty. It is important to remain open minded to other interpretations. Historically, ALL religions have at some time or another been very close minded to differing belief systems. Some still are. This causes the friction and contention that makes a personal journey to "find" God so exhausting and difficult. But no matter which "theory" we determine to follow, we have to remember that it is impossible to PROVE our theory, so we very well could be wrong and someone else may be right.

What of reality?

Again, reality is something we measure scientifically. Reality is what we see, touch, smell, hear... Reality is limited to our ability to perceive the world around us - a severe limitation! And the more we study and learn and try to measure and quantify, the more we find just how limited our ability to understand the world around us really is. Einstein, for example, coined the theory of relativity, which everyone now has a basic idea what it means but few really understand how it works or it's vast implications. I know I can't wrap my head around it entirely. But basically, it identifies the limitations in the accuracy of our "perfect" measurements. Time - for example, actually slows and/or speeds-up in the perceptions of individuals experiencing stress, and measurements of time can vary over extreme distances (think interstellar travel).

If we can't even trust "reality" in science - our concrete units of measurements meant to DEFINE reality, how can we trust it in trying to understand something OUTSIDE our ability to measure scientifically?

Is there one Truth? I think so. Is there one right answer? That is a completely different question, as there may be many different answers which lead different people to that singular Truth. It's not like math where 2 + 2 always equals 4. It's more like... individualized maps. We all start in different locations and are given a map that will lead us to the desired end result. My map won't work for you. And your map won't work for me, because we all start somewhere different and the map we've been given has been personalized.

But, what god allows us to choose him?

I think part of the whole point of this life is a test to see if we will choose to seek God out. He wants us to be willing, not forced or coerced.

So here, I've had to rely a bit more on my personal definition and understanding of God to answer your questions, and you may or may not agree with my answers. However, ultimately belief is always a CHOICE. It is not something we can prove. It is not something we can quantify. It is not something we can measure. There is not going to be any certainty - it will require faith. And to clarify something often misconstrued- faith is not just blindly following. Faith is hope, commitment, and conviction to a chosen path. It is trusting that the basic premise we've started on is correct and that the foundation we are building on is not going to crumple under the weight of added reasoning, study, and seeking of answers. It is living in accordance with your heart and your understanding.

The string theory example again - someone who believes string theory is correct will continue their pursuits in the discipline of theoretical physics basing all further study and equations on that basic assumption and premise. They will continue to research and study and build on that premise until they've gone as far as their reasoning capacities will allow, and then they will either abandon that premise to begin with a new one or keep searching for that "break through" that will give them added foundation for their theory.

Belief in God works much the same way. You must decide whether or not you believe He is there. It is a choice. And then you will continue your study of deity, spirituality, and religions based on your FAITH one way or the other. And maybe, someday, there will be a "break through" that either confirms or destroys the foundation on which you've built your view of the world.

 

[anthony]

I think the Chinese got it right the best... with Yin and Yang. There is always a little bit of bad in anyone good, and a little bit of good in anyone bad. Duality, I believe their concept. Good people will do bad things, and bad people will do good things... the difference is I guess whether you focus on the minority or majority.

I also believe interpretation has a lot to do with religion. You get many bad people wrap their justifications within their interpretative religious beliefs and doctrine they're choosing. You also get good people do the same, to the opposing end claiming righteousness and such for their actions, whether harmful through neglect or ignorance to beliefs.

Its all a shit storm to me personally... I have the belief system of Anthony, which I make it up as I go and choose as decided based on what I believe is right or wrong at that given time, whilst trying to also factor future consequences for self or others.