Programs

[Tinyflame]

Thank you @Cashew , it does make very much sense. I will have to go over it again/ write it down. Yes I too operate on many tracks (wayyyy too many) but moments like those as @FridayJones said I cannot think, so one track is all that shows up. (I'm stopping short of saying I have an 8-track mind, though I do remember them. ;) )

Never thought of the delaying of time component as being something in my options/ control.

Thank you @Cashew. :hug: Mostly I am not in a position to express what I feel (work, home etc), would cause problems.

 

[Friday]

Yes, how you describe this fits quite well. I should add that I have a form of 'split consciousness'. The largest part of me (and Link Removed I am doing a bunch on Norman Doidge work right now on neuropasticity, so this may be a help), seems to have this need to run (it is more like stumble in a daze), to a place that nobody will find me and become 'nothing' (which I am guessing is a child's version of death. However, as I have progressed in the past 8 years or so and have recognized the part that is driven to do so, there is an awareness for those around me who 'watch out for me' so that I am safe when this part is activated, so that they can 'find me easily'. This is not for a reason of survival, but instead so that I don't worry them sick or have them feel responsible for my 'disappearance'.

I'm on a hypothermia kick at present (paradoxical undressing earlier this month)... And now "Terminal Burrowing". http://www.livescience.com/41730-hypothermia-terminal-burrowing-paradoxical-undressing.html

It's not just hypothermia, though. Happens on battlefields in extreme f*cking heat (although one can argue blood loss causes one to get "cold"), but straight up anxiety mimics a lot of hypothermia sometimes. Blood yanked to your core triggers certain brainstem responses, maybe? IDK.

Terminal Burrowing is something that happens in hypothermia... And extreme stress, sometimes. It can be life saving, although it seems to be more on accident, than anything. The kid who survived the house fire in the oven. The toddler who the army missed passing through who climbed into the washing machine.

It's the impulse to get under, get inside, get hidden in some small / dark / enclosed space.

It works, sometimes. Other times it's as stupid as just your head and shoulders being under a park bench. Dude. We can see you. (Also apparently on a Douglass Adams kick! The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal... Who believes that if you can't see it? It can't see you. Not a very effective hunter, but very very ravenous!)

I had a girlfriend who introduced me to the relaxing comfort of hanging out under dining room tables, and closets. :) Usually, she'd go under the table by herself, although sometimes I'd pull a picnic down there, or blankets and books and we'd just read together... but we spent many many hours hanging out and talking in the closet! The closet was a very socializing zone in our apartment :D. It's a comfy space, closets. For my own peace of mind, I cut a hole in the drywall to the room behind it with a slide. She liked small dark spaces. I take issue with only having 1 exit ;)

Anyhow... I could be wrong, often am... But to me this sounds like Terminal Burrowing impulse gets engaged as if you're dying, but your conscious mind knows your not, and is overriding part of that impulse; leaving you a way to be found by others. Sounds pretty adaptive, to me. Instead of solving one problem to create another, it solves both.

 

[Friday]

Does this feel primal to you Friday? The consistency of it sounds genuine to my experience. Cause/effect. I am wondering what is involved in your experience of 'fighting it'?

Primal? Yep. Although it may be more of having trained myself to do the opposite of primal-instinct, and so that's what is engaging, instead of the true response; evicerate my ex to never let him near my child or anyone else's. Failing doing the first? I'm left with either being knocked out as effectively as someone taking a bat to my head, or pure firestorm rage/ grief/ rage/ MDK/ burning.

Fighting it... I used to be good at compartmentalizing. No matter how intense or engaging the situation at hand, it gets boxed up neat and nice to not exist until such a time as I have the energy to deal with it. Living a relatively normal life it could be when at school I wore my student hat, when at home, my mom hat. All of my intentions, energies, thoughts, feelings... Dealing with what I chose to be dealing with. Not worrying about my son at school, or my schoolwork while with my son. A less normal life... Eh. That's bloodier. But compartments. Of which I moved very easily between. Each with its own sets of rules & reasonings.

My compartments are all broken down at present. PTSD does that to me. Everything gets all jumbled up, leaks all over the place.

Fighting the response to my son being gone... Is trying to either make the damn compartments work again (I'm nothing if not stubborn), or trying to go about my life with them all broken down. To not be knocked flat and completely consumed with something outside my area of control... But allow them to occupy a corner of my mind while still living my life.

I can't do it, yet. Either I really do "simply" lose motor control and have to lay down and sleep (regardless of where I am), or the firestorm of grief/rage takes over. And over. And over. And over. I reach for the peas in the market? Hit with grief/rage/burning. It gradually recedes over the next hour. Sit down in my car? Hit with grief/rage/burning. It gradually recedes over the next 3 hours. Sit down to work on something. Hit with grief/rage/burning. Gradually recedes over the next hour. The more I try to simply "go on" with my everyday life? The more violent my reactions to it. Simple emotions turn into intrusive memories, turn into anxiety attacks, turn into flashbacks.

It's very much as if my brain is trying to get my attention. Hey! f*cktwat! Hellooooooo! Danger! Listen. To. Me.

The more I ignore what my brain is jumping up and down and shouting at me? The more it keeps trying.

 

[Ronin]

Whole the hiding track led me to other thoughs @shimmerz - what else mimicks what you wish of death to do close enough, and isn't dangerous to you?

I mean, maybe you could trick your brain into believing goal accomplished already, desired sensations present, we don't need death for that stuff, something else fills that function just as well.

 

[shimmerz]

You need to know what that exact thought is that causes the response.

'Where do you go when there is no place to go.' Those are the words I used when I called the crisis line a few years back when I was activated and wandering aimlessly in my car one evening. I was hospitalized the following day. I am not certain I would have words for it as it seemed to be an intense flooding, but somehow, that night, the crisis worker (they knew my history by that time), asked me where I was going. The above statement was my answer to her.

You know enough to know that the impulse is to run, hide. Can you put your mind very firmly towards, the next time it happens, just sit down.

I have thought quite a bit about this posting today before I responded, spoke to Sun about her observations and we spoke of some strategies. I understand the idea of breaking the link that you are attempting to get across, JL, and agree with it wholeheartedly. The problem is if I am not moving (if I am to sit) then I drop. And dropping means giving up to it. So I move as much as I can. Until it takes me. The issue is that it is about houses. So in realistic terms, getting into a house would be safest. Given my past (which is too long to consider here), this is not an option - at this point.

what sets off the thought.

Feeling like I need to leave a house. Like I am not welcome. It is consistent. It is not always true, but my interpretation of any type of phrasing that I should go leads to this behaviour....which is, quite frankly, both embarrassing and dangerous.

I believe that you wish to decide and control how you leave this earth, not fall victim to a random event.

This is very close. No, not a death wish. I was too young when it was instilled to understand death imho. However, not falling victim to a random event (without the capacity to think through the consequences) is bang on. Good get.

can a counter-respose be habituated? Specifically - can you activate that state/program on purpose?

This would be dangerous at this point, but I agree with your thoughts on this. I use visualization a ton to break triggers etc. It has been very successful for me. Sun and I spoke about this thought (and all the others in this posting) and based on her observations and my experiences, and an episode that happened yesterday which 5 of us happened to be a part of - Sun and I were successful in being able to 'ease' out of it for the first time EVER! Hurray! So yes, now I see the window. I see that what was said was not necessarily what I heard, and while activated Sun and I worked through what she meant and what I heard. I kept repeating what she meant....so there is a window wired in there now that I haven't had EVER and I will use visualization to re-enforce this whilst not activated. It is the following steps that will be challenging, but one step at a time.

The language you use reminds me of flight but also freeze responses sort of tied together

Yes, this is it, although I would use a Pete Walker term which is Fawn as well. What you describe yourself as feeling is very much as you describe. in my experience, going away was the key to my survival. Long story.

even with compromised reasoning

I think the reasoning in this situation is beyond compromised. It is a complete flooding by a 1 year old. With a teeny tiny bit of accountability (rational thinking) for the one that I will affect if I do run and 'disappear'. It is attempting to open that window just a bit more for my 'adult self' to reason with the 1 year old.

Change the motion before you can address what's behind it / causing the move itself.

So are you speaking as JL is and meaning 'motion' literally?

Also, if you go the other route but one's mind is in a one-track direction, how do you change or affect the mind's direction if you can't 'think' well? (Hope that makes sense.)

Yes, this makes sense to me. I think being mindful of the fact that I am deciding within a 1 year old framework. All I can think of is 'can't go in the house, can't go in the house'. 'Run, run'. Although my body is a 1 year old's as well. She staggers, she trips, she has no idea where she is, she is lost although she is in the backyard and a part of her is wanting to hide and another part of her is attempting to hide somewhere so the person who will ultimately look for her will not worry themselves sick over her. (I am using 3rd person as that is how it feels, although I know I could correct it). Cognition as I know it through this 'program'.

Or by delaying; you can be one track, but you still don't have to arrive to X action in Y time, the time is something that's very up to you (and in situations you just don't have the time?

Ah, but 1 year olds don't have a concept of time. If I am understanding correctly. Neither speeding up or slowing down. Am I understanding correctly Cashew?

For me... It takes doing the opposite, gaining distance, to allow me to address what is behind the impulse in the first place.

I understand this for other triggers. And perhaps this is one of Scouts blue/not blue things, which I would expect from a 1 year old perspective. So if I were to be brought into the house (which has happened when this first started with me), I would respond like a feral cat and then drop for days. I think it may have perhaps exacerbated the problem. There was a time that I would tie myself to the bed so I wouldn't run out in the winter and curl up outside and freeze. Is there a green here I am not seeing?

Blue - outside hiding
Not Blue - inside retraumatizing myself
Green - ?

 

[shimmerz]

Shit, sorry guys, lost this whole second page ......

If hypothermia becomes severe, respiration and heart rates can slow to dangerous levels — people can lose consciousness and may eventually die. But before losing consciousness, people suffering from hypothermia have been known to exhibit some bizarre behaviors that may, in fact, be a last-ditch effort to survive.

^^^ This without the hypothermia (although I don't feel pain.hot.cold.hunger etc so who knows, maybe i am cold). however, my respiration goes to 0, my heart rate slows to almost non existent. This is the way I died in front of my birth parents in order to survive their wanting me dead (how is that for a paradox?). So if this is how the body responds, with those physiological cues, then yes, this may well be what this is. I am 'expecting' to die, but my feeling is I don't know exactly what that is. I suppose it makes sense to a 1 year old in that situation over the course of time.

but your conscious mind knows your not, and is overriding part of that impulse; leaving you a way to be found by others. Sounds pretty adaptive, to me. Instead of solving one problem to create another, it solves both.

Yes, and now what? lol. This sounds bang on .... makes a bunch of sense. I like your idea of picnics under the dining room table. Or a spot to hide ..... like the closet in the house. Not quite sure if that is doable at this point.... but this is something to mull over. Thank you.

I'm left with either being knocked out as effectively as someone taking a bat to my head, or pure firestorm rage/ grief/ rage/ MDK/ burning.

Yes, and I have repaired many things by getting to anger.rage.grief. and it was a long haul due to the age of some of the woundings - but yes, this is my ultimate goal as getting to rage seems to step me up the ladder from helplessness. Not sure where rage could fit in here..... because I don't have a leaning towards it. Any advice on how to rage out in this case? You seem to be a 'responsible rager', if that makes any sense. :-)

- what else mimicks what you wish of death to do close enough, and isn't dangerous to you?

Smart. Very smart. If I go back to the statement of 'where do you go when you have no place to go', which i relate to an infants version of disappearing..... would you mind throwing this around with me a bit please? I feel like 'I want more cookies please' is a bit of a leap, but perhaps some potential there..... I am not certain what would fill that gap.... an adult perspective? A slightly older child's perspective? Where does a 1 year old go when there is no place to go?

Hoping some of this makes sense. I can still feel being 'in it' to a degree and am working on scrambled thoughts and possibilities. Thank you all.

 

[Chava]

A one-year-old doesn't do the rational thinking. But unless you are 100% dissociated, your adult observer/witness to this can gain more awareness and look for the right way out, which is likely at a one-year-old level (so probably not running away...but maybe something like it, like I have had the early "flight" connected to wanted to feel safe or move towards someone safer, in a non running fashion).

Mostly for me the adult self could work with this body memory stuff by accessing something in my immediate environment, which also felt accessible to the immobilized and powerless self....like sound (I think you said once sound doesn't help you much). Then I can sort of slowly reorganize, move back into the present, and my adult self can go for a walk to remind myself physically that I am not trapped (or whatever). The adult ("me") is not even logical....just more like "listening" or trying to be aware of what my body needs in the body memory states. It usually doesn't seem logical, but I'm gradually getting better at noticing what is going on before getting 120% swamped, and finding a way to listen and respond so that I can get beyond it.

 

[shimmerz]

like sound (I think you said once sound doesn't help you much)

That is possible, but we did get a tuning fork and have yet to use it. We will have to keep it close by. I would like to try that.

and my adult self can go for a walk to remind myself physically that I am not trapped (or whatever).

Just recognized the problem in this although it sounds like all the right stuff. If I walk towards the house (to go in) it retriggers the program. If I walk away from the house it would retrigger the program as well. No walks....but maybe something???? *heavy sigh*

 

[Chava]

If I walk towards the house (to go in) it retriggers the program. If I walk away from the house it would retrigger the program as well.

So this sounds like a sort of freeze where you have 2 competing or very different impulses....like wanting to go in or be close to have protection, but wanting to run. Maybe this isn't it. But the competing impulses leave a really dreadful charge and immobility in the body. An example for me would be wanting to connect with another person but wanting to pull in and also shield myself. So in therapy this shows up as my hand shaking a lot....I want to connect with my therapist and feel connected and protected by another person, but I also want to get away and protect myself. So my hand just shakes. She told me to work on splitting those two impulses....just lightly, a little bit practice connecting. Then go into pulling in and self-protection. Allow for both but separate them.

Not sure if you could separate your impulses and do a little of each, or if that would even be helpful. My therapist described a common form of "freeze" as being these impulses that are glued together. It's common in early childhood trauma because our body wants to reach for an attachment figure for protection, but if we are simultaneously afraid of that person all we can do is try to pull in or disappear. The impulses are in opposition to each other, and both feel impossible, so hello numbness and dissociation....

 

[shimmerz]

Yes, the interesting part of all of this is that walking into the house 'feels dangerous' while sleeping outside while cougars wander IS dangerous. I have gotten that much of a distinction between the two.....

Sun was speaking earlier about perhaps making a place to hide (who knows if that could be in the house) Friday's idea of picnics under tables is pretty darned good - perhaps in good moments - going with others ideas about changing the motion. So perhaps if Sun and I can define a fun place in the house to hide ... some place easily accessible as I cannot stumble far.... making the outside not an option somehow.

 

[PlainJane]

Bear with me...

It's kind of like a thunder shirt for dogs and cats. It relies on the same concept Temple Gradin used in her designs based on compression. The idea of compression works for some folks, weighted blankets etc. (not for me; makes me feel stuck and wrong) but the point I wanted to share with you is something from the instruction sheet that comes with the thundershirt. It basically tells us to "condition" the pet to the shirt by putting the the shirt on the pet for a small period of time for 4-8 weeks when there is not a stressful situation present. So that the pet doesn't associate the shirt with an upcoming stressful event. There is quite a bit of science behind it. I usually think in terms from a logical standpoint. Sometimes beneficial sometimes not. So I think if you and Sun are considering a designated spot. It may be important to incorporate the idea of being conditioned to it, so it's not forever associated with "trouble." Thought I'd include the link to the thundershirt site which explains much better and has a few pdf's on the science of it.

http://www.thundershirt.com/faq#faq8

 

[shimmerz]

It may be important to incorporate the idea of being conditioned to it, so it's not forever associated with "trouble."

Yes, a safe spot originally. While not affected. When Sun and I spoke about this she suggested a 'safe spot' for me to go so she would know where I was and therefore, retrieve me. I can't make this decision while not affected .... but I did run a couple of days ago and found a spot. If necessary I will use that spot.

My idea was to blow it up completely rather than re-enforce it but perhaps the idea of making a safe spot inside would be a good one at least to keep me out of the elements in case my idea to wipe it out is a little ambitious (as is my MO).

I am stressing (in August for chrissakes) because winter is coming! But it may take a bit for this to switch around so no time like the present. I will certainly keep this in mind Jane. Thank you so very much. Sun and I will continue to go over this post and see what we think is a good fit. Any further ideas are so very welcome but you have all been so generous and thoughtful in your posts. I thank you so very much.