I Am Not 'they'

[Ronin]

I think my concern here is over the parallel drawn between violence and PTSD specifically. The media is no help in this way.

There's those parallels drawn between mental illness & violence, period; it's not just PTSD.

Media matter in influencing judgment only as much as people are wanting to listen to that, or actively perpetuate stereotypes.

All I'm saying: I think we're all on this board too busy living well & getting better to worry about an issue that's simply present, not anyone's concretely here's fault, and not something that can be fully fixed within a life time. There's more pressing concerns in our individual lives we can be working on collectively fixing.

For some violence & its prevention is a daily issue, just as much as other reactions to violence are a daily issue for others, and it's not lumping anyone with anybody else by having separate discussion categories for each.

 

[scout86]

Wow!

There's a real recent thread on here, maybe an anonymous one? Where the OP, a "supporter" asked a question about "them". What "they" are like in some respect. I responded by asking "Who's them?" or something to that effect.

I did that for a particular, specific reason.

I'll admit, I cringe a little every time I encounter sweeping generalizations and sweeping generalizations about people with PTSD hit close to home. That's not exactly why I asked the question though. I asked it because I wanted the OP to stop and think about their question. It's easy to lump people into groups, but it's not always useful. I was hoping that raising the question might cause her, and those offering advice, to remember that dealing with a human being is different that dealing with a statistic. The fact that I find it a bit offensive to be treated like a statistic is small potatoes. Her trying to define her boyfriend that way can be a problem. Because yes, he has PTSD, but there's a lot more to the guy than that. And it's possible she couldn't live with him if he DIDN'T have PTSD too. The PTSD makes things more complicated but there's no way anyone here can safely say what's caused by that diagnosis and what's something else. My T says ALL these diagnosis are just "traits that all people have more or less of, existing on kind of a bell shaped distribution." Some of us just live a bit farther out towards one end of the curve than others.

I think the supporter's forum is a great idea. I learn a lot reading there too. And, everyone's entitled to look at things however they want to. And to be as inexact in their language as they want to too. But language DOES matter and I do think it's good to pay attention to it. And I'm kind of glad @shimmerz brought the topic up directly, because I think it's worth discussing. (I always learn more from the people who see things differently than I do from the people who agree with me!)

 

[Myanxietyhasanxiety]

I wish I could like this post more than once.

I love that there is a forum for our supporters but I agree on the issue of generalization. Great point.

In respects to Violence. I have thought about this quite a bit. When I was trying to understand the diagnoses this point bothered me. The media bothered me. Im not violent. I feel like if I could relate to the anger in any way then my "violence" turned inward, I have "rage" towards myself, but have never hurt or touched another human. And I am outwardly kind and loving to all people I know. If I feel unkind, I know to walk away. Because even words are powerful and can hurt others. In that way, I feel lIke if it is PTSD it taught me to be more compassionate and understanding. But again , as you pointed out, we are not all the same.

Just an observation I noticed in myself.

 

[Deleted member 20978]

Debated whether to chime in. This thread feels so important. Whatever I'm sharing here, is just my own experience obviously -- I'm "he", not "they". I've also been both a sufferer (still am) and a supporter (no more).

My ex-wife also has PTSD, and CPTSD (I apologize if that is an inaccurate description as I'm still trying to learn how these things are related vs. same but different). In our tailspin following the recent traumas, every bad pattern that had existed became amplified and it was a bad feedback loop. We both had childhood emotional abuse, she had sexual abuse as well, and I experienced more neglect than she did. We were each others supporters and abusers. She was manipulative and I would get into rages. I would yell, usually the content being about how much she was hurting me with what (I can only assert here, not elaborate) were very abusive behaviors on her part. But I didn't realize my pain extended way beyond the things she did, didn't realize how much trauma I was carrying. And vice versa. But this raging was harmful to her, and it escalated to abusive. We were almost designed to trigger each other. By the end of our marriage, her crazy stuff started hitting levels that really terrified me. She would cut her wrists and then threaten me if I said we needed to tell her T or family she was expressing suicidal intent. I would get more and more upset because I felt trapped, and because my mother threatening suicide when I was very young was a huge trigger. Which K knew. She told some people she worried I would hurt our cats, then told me she was sorry, she knew I would never in a million years do this. I would get even more upset, because WTF?!! Then she started a behavior I'd never seen, slamming her head and arms against walls and bruising herself, while telling me she knew I would hit her (never happened, not once). I became severely depressed and fled a few times, once sleeping in my car. We finally separated and many of my friends, who I'd known longer than I'd known my wife, disappeared. (Quite possibly not due to this, because I was losing it in general, and friends will back away.) One even told me flat out that the cats thing had him thinking I maybe was becoming physically abusive. He'd known me for 18 years and said he had never seen me that way, but was concerned.

I would *never* physically assault a woman. I used to tell myself this meant I could not be an abusive person. That is definitely wrong -- emotional and verbal anger can absolutely be abusive. I'm still trying to sort it out. Nowadays the only times I have seen myself rage are with people I trust, and it is not directed at them (though, can be misheard that way, and in therapy has come up a few times, and helped work through that). If I rage it is in the form of venting, not directed at the person who is listening. And it is never intentional. In other contexts, when I don't feel that trust, instead of raging outwards it turns inwards and I dissociate or otherwise crumble. Maybe vent, maybe cry, but I haven't raged *at* anyone for over a year, which is something.

I offer no particular insight or generalization. I'm still sorting through things in myself about my marriage. PTSD is behind these things, but when is it an excuse? When does it justify? When is it okay to get really angry when you're being abused? I don't know. I do know that a toxic dynamic is just that, and even two people who love each other can lack the tools to stop the cycle bouncing around. I know that shaming and blaming makes things worse. I feel lots of shame, and lots of resentment. But it's also helped me learn that the things my parents did, as much as they've screwed me up for life, were because of their own traumas.

I don't expect everyone to like me or understand or forgive. It's difficult on many levels for me to write about this type of stuff, for a bunch of reasons. But I agree that it is unfair to blanket assume things because that person has PTSD. And I know there are many ways to be abusive besides being overtly aggressive. My wife to her credit is in a lot of therapy and working on DID and her own role in her relationships (so I hear). I am too. Eventually I need to figure out how to be in the world, IRL, and not have my demons hurt others. When I do get triggered, I meltdown because don't want to lash out but all the terror and helplessness floods back in.

Apologies if this sounds "all about me". Others here have shared their self-experience on topic, that's all I'm doing. I think anger is common in PTSD, and learning to cope and rechannel it is maybe the answer, but I have much more to learn than I could advise on that. I don't feel so much anger anymore, and in that sense am glad to have gotten out of a relationship where we both had untreated trauma. I'm worried about seeing mother for Xmas, since she was my original abuser and was often very angry when I was young. Now with her dementia, she sometimes has been abusive to her own friends, to the waiter at a restaurant, etc. So this will be a chance to practice calmness if she gets that way.

 

[Ronin]

Debated whether to chime in.

I am glad you have, after debating it. :)

Great post.

 

[Myanxietyhasanxiety]

PTSD is behind these things, but when is it an excuse? When does it justify?

As @Cashew said, glad you did.

I've think you hit a great point. I like the way you thought through it. I have done this similarly. So I would love to add on to your thoughts on what I concluded in my own mind to piggyback off yours.

As we all know, violence is never excused. Just look at the insanity defense as an example. It's almost impossible to be used in trial. Even if that person has SEVERE mental illness with a history of psychosis. Even they could be held accountable for actions. At least in some fashion, could be treatment, or could be jail.

Which I typically agree on. Not that I agree that the system is perfect, but I do agree on accountability. Even if that person is just held accountable to treatment. I think accountability is important.

So then there is Anger. Anger is another point I have debated in my head. I used to think of Anger as an ugly emotion. I didn't like feeling angry, therefore, as I child I would bypass this feeling. Ignore it. But I realize now, that anger a nessasary emotion. It's an important emotion. And when used appropriately, constructively can be good.

Is anger justifiable? Absolutely! PTSD or not, we should allowed to be angry. We should be allowed to be upset, we should be frustrated.

Obviously the line is drawn at: Violence and/or abusive behavior.

That leads me to my point, at what point is it PTSD? Did our PTSD make us angry or would normal person get angry or upset? Was it our PTSD that lead us to be cruel? Say mean things?

I concluded: it doesn't matter. PTSD or not. We all have rights and responsibilities as humans on this earth. My anger may be 1000% justifiable. I may need to sort out the why of it, maybe their is a lesson to learn, maybe I help identify the stressor, or help find a trigger. I'm allowed to be mad either way. It may or may not be PTSD related.

PTSD may be a reason, I became angry. It may be the cause. It may be understandable. It may be a lot of things, but it not an excuse to violence and or hurting another person with my words.

So when I screamed at my adult cousin. Raged out on her. Called her the worst things a humsn should ever call someone else, When I did that. Knowing the WHY, We all can understand. It may have been PTSD, but in my mind, it doesn't matter. I vowed that day to never again treat abother human that way.

If we were a society that all accepted personal responsibility, took ownership for actions, then I don't think we would be having this conversation.

We're not. Therefore, those that have PTSD struggle may even struggle with the diagnosis and labeling that happens as a result. First comes labels, then comes shaming.

So assuming we were to shed the label. Shed the diagnosis. Shed all the judgments. I think labels can be dangerous if used improperly. Labels and diagnoses should used as a tool to getting help and treatment. And that is where it should end.

What's left after the label is shed. We humans. We all have struggles, obstacles to overcome. Some more than others. We're all connected on this thing called earth. We all have things to sort through. We all have reasons we behave the way we do.

Unfortunately, PTSD is not our fault, not fair at all, we were giving an extra responsiblity in this world. We may have to work twice as hard as the average person.

But we too have the right and responsibility to be treated fair, with compassion, and with dignity. And vise versa.

Just my empowering thought for the day.

I made so many mistakes along the way. Said some awful things to my boyfriend before. Screamed at my cousin once. I can have a short fuse with my child.

I didn't always get WHY I behaved that way. Then I found out I had PTSD. It some ways it may have connected. But it taught me that I needed to educate myself-on myself. So now I know better, I try to do better. I understand how words can be so harmful.

 

[Weemie]

I think the two types of PTSD (victims of violence vs. combat) are truly juxtaposed. Similar, but oh so different.

Honestly, I believe it is just individual. Individual trauma, individual response. It's accurate to say that some people with PTSD are more apt to lash out with violence and anger. That is accurate. Some of them are. Some of them aren't. Just depends on you, and what you've experienced. The bundled mess of wires and cords in your cranium.

I don't have combat PTSD, but there have been times in my life where I was ready to kill. Murderous rages. For me, the symptoms of combat PTSD and the symptoms of PTSD that I exhibit due to my trauma aren't necessarily juxtaposed, just different. When I get into fight-mode, I will scream and rage as though someone pushed a berserk button on my forehead.

It's just neurology, no matter what, we're doomed to repeat the same circuits over and over again until we bend them differently. I won't equate what I've experienced to combat, nor even my responses to combat-induced PTSD, but I don't feel that they are necessarily opposed, either.

Violence was an every day thing for me. When I was a kid I would punch and hit people, push people. Violence was it, it was the answer. It was the question and the answer. I was conditioned to submerge my personality and replace it with obedience for the Greater Good. I absorbed and accepted this violence and in order to accept something, it has to resonate with you on some level. It has to feed into this sense that what you're doing is meaningful. Violence is strength, might is right.

Drop-reflexes, I call them. You can push me in certain ways and those circuits will fire, and I'm gone. Playing opposum. Yes, sir. Whatever you say. I'm yours. Fight-or-fawn. If you push me wrong? You aren't real, you don't know me. Back the f*ck away.

 

[Stickler]

I know that I used to snap at people until I found a med mix that stopped it...my special anti-bitch blend.

I suspect, in my case, that losing it verbally on people is a matter of having a lower " losing-it" threshold, and in my case, being dissociated from my own feelings?
Therefore I'm not aware of my usual dysphoria and anger until suddenly it hits and breaks the floodgates.

...I mostly have my rage under control these days.
I think more than most sane people, honestly.
I'm more than a little afraid of what I might be capable of?
I also note anxiety and rage are closely linked for me...as in an anxiety attack can flip into rage for me with very little provocation.

When anxious, I find it best to isolate.

 

[rightkindofme]

Not to minimize everything else going on in this thread.... I use "they" instead of he/she on purpose a great deal of the time. Even when I mean one specific person. I spend a lot of time around people who are third gender or who do not use a gendered pronoun other than they. At this point in written communication.... they is sometimes a singular pronoun and *is not* a sweeping generalization.

I know that this wasn't really the point of the thread but it is a really big deal in my life and I wanted to point this out. My kid isn't a boy or a girl they are a kid. So this is a thing in my life.

Also: I do not have combat oriented PTSD. Mine comes from childhood traumas. I am an incredibly violent person. I'm ok with people needing to talk about that aspect of my personality.

Respectfully,

Krissy

 

[The Albatross]

I was at my worst highly reactive and in fight mode about 16 years ago. I am careful to choose what I take offense at. As has been shared, I tend to agree that "they" is more a descriptor for the person of the post than directed at me or PTSD's in general.

 

[stillstanding2]

I am seeing a disturbing trend when it comes to some supporters speaking about 'us' (sufferers). When...

Thank you for your post. The insensitive use of "they" is a trigger for me. And it goes beyond the context of PTSD sufferers. Even people who should know better, such as medical staff around patients can be that crass. When my wife was dying and couldn't speak (but could hear) one nurse tried to explain my wife's symptoms to me in terms of "they" (for all such patients) while I sat by my wife. I had that nurse removed permanently from our room.

It enraged me as much as the old white racist habit of referring to all Black people as "those people."

 

[Ronin]

I don't know about that, personally.

Pointing use of they vs. being deliberately derogatory are still miles away from each other.
There's a difference talking a group of people as relevant to one's duties and insulting a group of people as not relevant to one's duties. Perhaps a fine line to walk, sure, but simple descriptors are not dehumanizing.

Nor is pointing out trends. Trends in illnesses / other types of conditions as pertinent to the condition at hand aren't a person judgment by default, in my book. They're talking under which conditions something happens upon people. Eventually: they can be care. And lead to care. I'm not shutting that door just cus the words was wrong.