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News Do We Really Have A Say?

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Oh, they'd make me nervous and angry. They just wouldn't cause me to do anything differently once I got in the voting booth, except simmer gently while voting.
They'd have done way better to simply dress well, be polite and hand out campaign flyers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_protection_in_the_United_States
Your mileage may vary. Reading that, one gets the impression one should get an attorney prior to reporting wrongdoing at any employer in the U.S.
 
To not derail the post, do we have a choice in reality? I think we do as there are many MANY rights!

We have choices, yeah. It's just that most of the options we're offered are fairly sucky, and creating the new options is REALLY difficult.

Something that's going on right now? Many cities are far more politically left-leaning than the states around them.
The conservatives have long publicly advocated for local control...but apparently only want local control if they approve of the local decisions...and if they don't...
http://www.governing.com/topics/politics/gov-states-cities-preemption-laws.html

(It's especially irksome to yours truly that municipalities are banned from raising the local minimum wage in some cases. Rents are way higher in cities than they are in rural areas, so it's obvious that people in cities might need to be paid more to survive versus rural people.)
 
They just wouldn't cause me to do anything differently once I got in the voting booth, except simmer gently while voting.

Oh, they wouldnt sway my vote, they would just scare me is all. If they were at the door of my voting booth, I probably wouldnt of voted.

I think I heard somewhere that they were like to like almost promoting Obama but you arent supposed to do that! Like the video said, someone with M.I.T on their shirt, they thought it was meaning Romney when it meant the school.

Rents are way higher in cities than they are in rural areas, so it's obvious that people in cities might need to be paid more to survive versus rural people.

In my State, you have to carry two jobs to live; and I cant physically do that and my dad; whom's VA pension and SS is just slightly more than what I get paid; was going under so we combined imcomes. He only pays out $400/ month to me but I didnt need that much so it has help me keep my therapist once a week and make a nice little nest egg savings for myself.

I agree we need higher wages (and here lower price of living to balance it better) but min wage as $15 an hour would make a hambuger at McDonalds VERY expensive.

We need to raise the income of those jobs thats not at min wage. I didnt get a raise this year but my rent sure went up. I improved in every area and they rate you 1 -10, 5 and above you get a raise, 4 and below you dont and they HAVE NEVER done that before. I was a 4 when i was a 5 last year yet i improved in every area. I dont get it except that goverment putting pressure on big business where they have to do this.

Choice, do we actually have a choice?

It doesnt seem that way and a lot of ways we dont but we do have rights that most either dont know about or jave no way to enforce. And a law advise is free from legal aid and lawyers dont get paid til you font and most dont take on a case they cant win.
 
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(It's especially irksome to yours truly that municipalities are banned from raising the local minimum wage in some cases. Rents are way higher in cities than they are in rural areas, so it's obvious that people in cities might need to be paid more to survive versus rural people.)
minor hijack
minimum wage is not the friend of the poorest and most vulnerable in society that many people might think it is.
If a minimum wage was effective at raising the income of the poorest and most vulnerable, why stop at $15/hour why not raise it to $150/hour or $1,500/hour.

At the present time, minimum wages get promoted as a way to help the poorest and most marginalised/vulnerable.

Go back to the Progressive era, 1900 to WWii, and especially between the world wars, and the proponants of minimum wage (again on the "left" of their time), were proposing minimum wages as a means to force the poorest and most vulnerable in society out of the labour market and well away from competing with unionised white males on the labour market. And to prevent small businesses competing with big crony corporations.

Some (not all) of the economic arguments advanced in the first half of the 20th century were (IMO) correct, but the reasons and sentiments although surprisingly candid, were loathsome and despicable.

here's an excerpt from London University academic and prominent British Fabian Socialist (and eugenisist - you'll get the essence of that from the later quotes I've pasted), Sidney Webb's* 1912 paper "The Economic theory of the Legal Minimum Wage" Dead Link Removed

I pass to a more interesting point. What would be the result
of a Legal Minimum Wage on the employer's persistent desire to
use boy labor, girl labor, married women's labor, the labor of old
men, of the feeble-minded, of the decrepit and broken-down invalids
and all the other alternatives to the engagement of competent male
adult workers at a full Standard Rate ? What would be the effect,
in short, upon the present employment, at wages far below a decent
level, of workers who at present cannot (or at any rate do not)
obtain a full subsistence wage?
To put it shortly, all such labor is parasitic on other classes of the
community, and is at present employed in this way only because it
is parasitic
Page 986 (15 out of 27 in the .PDF)

Let's put that into todays terms, employers of single mums, school and college leavers, disabled people, people with psychological or substance problems, people over 45 or 50 years old...
Webb had already commented with evident disapproval that "the Chinese" immigrants had already made significant inroads into furniture making in the Australian state of Victoria, which he uses as his case study.

a little further on we meet this
Page 991
There would still remain to be considered the
remnant, who, notwithstanding the increased demand for adult
male labor and independent female labor, proved to be incapable
of earning the Legal Minimum in any capacity whatsoever. We
should, in fact, be brought face to face with the problem, not of
the unemployed but of the unemployable: those whom no employer
would employ at the Legal Minimum even if trade was booming
and he could get nobody else.
The unemployable, to put it bluntly, do not and cannot under
any circumstances earn their keep. What we have to do with
them is to see that as few as possible of them are produced; that
such of them as can be cured are (almost at whatever cost) treated

992 JOURNAL OF POLITICAL ECONOMY
so as promptly to remove their incapacity, and that the remnant
are provided for at the public expense, as wisely, humanely, and
inexpensively as possible.
I cannot here enter into the appropriate social regimen and cura?
tive treatment best calculated to minimize the production of the
unemployable in each subdivision, and to expedite the recovery
of such as are produced. Such a regimen and such a treatment have
been elaborately expounded for the United Kingdom in the Minor?
ity Report of the Poor Law Commission, which is, in my judgment,
essentially applicable to the United States in much the same way as
to the United Kingdom. Once such unfortunate products of social
anarchy exist, these physical and moral weaklings and degenerates
must somehow be maintained, at the expense of other persons.
They may be provided for from their own property or savings, by
charity, or from public funds, with or without being set to work
in whatever ways are within their capacity. But, of all ways of
dealing with these unfortunate parasites, the most ruinous to the
community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage
earners for situations. For this at once prevents competition from
resulting in the selection of the most fit, and thus defeats its very
object. In the absence of any Common Rule, it will, as we have
seen, often "pay" an employer to select a physical or moral invalid,
who offers his services for a parasitic wage, rather than the most
efficient workman, who stands out for the conditions necessary
for the maintenance of his efficiency...

Webb is criticising the unregulated market FOR providing oportunities for paid work (and a chance to demostrate an track record of productivity and gain workplace skills), to Women, young people, the disabled... admittedly at low wages, but still at wages that they were willing to get out of bed for. it gets worse...
Page 993 (emphasis added)
A dim appreciation of the evil effects of
any mixing of degenerates in daily life, joined, of course, with
motives of humanity, has caused the sick and the infirm, the
imbeciles and the lunatics, even the cripples and the epileptics,
to be, in all civilized communities, increasingly removed from
the competitive labor market, and scientifically dealt with according
to their capacities and their needs. The "labor colonies" of Hol
land and Germany are, from this point of view, an extension of the
same policy. To maintain our industrial invalids, even in idle?
ness, from public funds, involves a definite and known burden on
the community. To allow them to remain at large, in parasitic
competition with those who are whole, is to contaminate the labor
market; and means a disastrous lowering of the standard of life
and standard of conduct, not for them alone, but for the entire
wage-earning class
.

This guy was proposing a minimum wage on the basis of the near Hitler level of harm that it would do to the poorest, least able and most vulnerable in society. I actually agree that those are the consequences of a minimum wage which is set above the minimum that was being paid on the unhampered market. I don't agree with his enthusiasm for that harm.
_______________________________________
*check Sidney Webb's credentials out, he isn't some small fry, he's one of the main (if not the main) movers and shakers in the origins of the British Labour Party (Tony B Liar's and Gordon Brown's party).

Also check out the Journal, It's mainstream and well regarded, it wasn't some crackpot pamphlet being turned out from a bedsit.
 
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We have minimum wage set at $18.70 here.

Apparently the cost of living in comparison to other countries is devastatingly high though so the majority of us still find ourselves working for very little left over at the end of a pay cycle.

In the end, its the lower and middle income bracket working their butts off for basic survival that keeps the country afloat, while the upper brackets real the rewards an pay less tax.

Seems to me like it all makes very little difference in the end, and ita just something pointless to argue about lol

The current argument here atm is whether its sustainable or fair to pay retail workers extra to work weekends or public holidays.
This fight will keep us busy until next elections I reckon lol
 
...Apparently the Southern Poverty Law Center and members of the original Black Panther Party do not like them.
be careful and sceptical with that very very wealthy law firm and its list of supposed hate groups.

I'm not sure whether they still receives fe'ral funding to compile the list. Back in the 90s to mid 2000s, I came to regard their list as a fairly comical fe'rally funded attempt to manufacture a "Brown [fascist] Scare"
 
I dont care what min wage is, i get paid, not min wage and after a few raises not quite $13 an hour; my rent is $850!

For the exact same job in the other State, I got $15 an hr, my rent was (in the riches & lowest crime county) $550 for 1000 sq ft.

In 4 yrs I saved $20,000 to put down on a house in TN; was being promoted to $20 an hour and transfered...then i fell off a ladder 3 stories up.

My issue with our State is wages are VERY low and price of living is VERY high...and I live a block from the getto. If i move closer to work there are apartments that are around 600sq ft for over $900. You cant live here on a single income with a single job. You just cant!

It needs to be leveled, lower wages then lower prices of living and visa versa like in NY or other States. Yes its expensive to live there but they get paid WAY more!

My appologies, was following the
minor hijack
 
We have minimum wage set at $18.70 here.
I'm not sure which state you are in, but check the graphs for numbers of first nation Australians in employment over time (I'm hoping you're not on Tasmania, as regards first nation peoples!). Those guys are hit hard by high minimum wages, in just the same way as Sidney Webb hoped Chinese imigrants, lunatics and imbeciles would be forced out of the labour market by minimum wages.

Regarding retail workers - you've reached almost soviet levels of central planning if those decisions are being made by politicians rather than by people themselves deciding whether they want to go to work in those businesses on a weekend for the money that's on offer.

and the businesses deciding if it's worth opening on a weekend with the number and level of staff that they can afford to attract in on a weekend.

Ultimately the knowledge required to make those decisions is only available to the individuals directly involved. It isn't ever available in a form that can be communicated to the politicians or other central planners.

What are the effects of a minimum price floor that is set above the market clearing price that would prevail on an unhampered market?

less is demanded

more is brought to market

Back in the days of agricultural production subsidies in europe, the result was "lakes" of wine and vegetable oils and "mountains" of cereal grains, meats, butter, cheese etc
That there were no buyers for.

On the labour market, the result is less picturesque than lakes and mountains, It's lots of people wanting jobs, and too few jobs being offered at those wage rates to employ them all.

It doesn't matter how many people voted for the policy or how popular it is, The market clearing price can only be discovered on a market, it can not be centrally planned or enforced.

For the counter example to a minimum price
Consumer goods in Venezuela is a current example of maximum prices that are set below the market clearing price that would have prevailed on an unhampered market.
The policy is very popular ammongst Maduro's supporters, but the actual results of that policy are not - the goods disappear completely from the open market, and onto the underground market where they all sell for the market clearing price.

That nicely brings us back to Katiee's original question
Do we have a (s)ay in what goes on in our world/nation
Yes as freely choosing buyers and sellers on the market, but not in politics, concentrated vested interests control politics.
or is it just an illusion handed to us as big corporations and the government will just do what they want
Politicians and their cronies will try to do what they want, and for a while it will look like they are succeeding in robbing and bullying people for their own benefit
in the end anyways
the choices of ordinary individuals choosing to buy or not to buy, to work for that wage or not to work at that wage, to employ or not to employ at that wage
those choices will reassert themselves regardless of the orders of politicians.

In the mean time, a lot of damage can be done, a lot of real wealth re-distributed or destroyed and a lot of people can be mislead by the distortion and they later get hurt during the resulting "correction" (crash and recession).
 
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http://fortune.com/2015/07/30/15-per-hour-fast-food-prices/
...Regarding fast food costs and wages, about a dollar per menu item.

I will admit that hiking the minimum wage is slapping a band-aid on a puncture wound, it's not a long-term fix, nor is free college, or massive retraining. It will help in the short-term.
Heavily funding affordable housing construction would help too.

Society's mechanizing, it takes less people to do actual work, and that...ought to be a good thing? But it isn't...because increases in production only benefit the few.
We have a general ethos in the USA that people who do not work have no value...so what happens when the vast amount of work is done by machinery? We all make a living selling each other toilet paper from China?
Most able-bodied working people would like to be able to get a job at a living wage.
If you're not going to offer housing and survival resources to those who cannot get work because it simply isn't there, who cannot get work that covers their survival costs, or those who are not able to work due to disability, then you've basically decided to dispose of those people.
Maybe not stated, but...more or less.

Regarding eugenics? Um no. Human development is highly dependent on nurture.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-humans-give-birth-to-helpless-babies/
We seem to be adapted to imprint our own culture, and this includes the social views about our selves.
We actually craft a self-assessment based on how others treat us.
If people are told they are stupid or worthless because of something arbitrary, like skin color...or gender...or because their parents need someone to crap on...some of them will believe it.
It's really difficult to rise above one's programming.

Going to leave this here, because
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory

My brain has turned into Swiss cheese since the 2011 breakdown. f*ck! :banghead:
 
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Hi stickler
I wasn't arguing for eugenics.
I was pointing out that eugenics was something that the author of that paper, and his contemporary fabians (eg HG Wells and George Bernard Shaw) were in favour of, that the paper I cited and quoted from, had that disgusting eugenics flavour about it, even if it never obviously said so.

sorry if I gave the impression that I was in favour of a centrally planned weeding the human garden, I'm absolutely not in favour of centrally planned anything, especially eugenics.

Society's mechanizing, it takes less people to do actual work, and that...ought to be a good thing? But it isn't...because increases in production only benefit the few.
That is true of the united state at present, but there is more happening there than just mechanisation.

human desires are almost limitless, and we're not short of ideas to fill those desires, so, there should be no limit to new areas of employment to fill all of those wants, as mindful foot masseurs or whatever.

Mechanisation does indeed bring the benefits claimed, but approximately 50% of all benefits do not go into us contributing to bettering each others lives by offering goods and services that people are willing to pay for

that approximately 50% goes towards hampering, restricting (and even caging and killing) people and towards producing bads and dis services that people would not be willing to pay for (I know very few who would volountarily choose pay to have Iraq Afghanistan, Libya and Syria bombed out of their own pockets).

that theft makes many activities that otherwise would have been worthwhile and beneficial to engage in, no longer worth doing. You get to see what some of the tax money got spent on, paraded in front off you, but you'll never see what that money would have been spent on, if it hadn't been taken from productive people in the form of tax.

There are also a whole pile of laws and tariffs that mean that we get the same or less services for higher price. I'll cite the example of the American tariffs on cane sugar imports. Why should you pay more of your hard earned to get cane sugar - or the vastly inferior corn syrup (Archer Daniels is a major political donor - need I say more)?
Without paying so much for the sweetener - how much more could soda pop makers pay their workers?
What lower sales volume but more diverse sodas would it be worthwhile for people to produce if Americans were allowed to buy cane sugar at world market prices?

Up until the 1920s, there was no such thing as long term unemployment. There was only short term unemployment, as inefficeint businessmen went out of business, or new technologies replaced older ones, eg the automobile industry rendering the horse buggy makers and buggy whip makers obsolete. It maybe took the guys who found themselves without a job, a few days or weeks to find new jobs.
Something changed in the 1920's. J M Keynes (not sexy) identified it as wage rates being sticky (they wouldn't go down), so the labour market no longer cleared, and people were left long term un employed for the first time in history. I'll let you guess what things had changed

A policy of banning mechanised cotton picking machines, excavators and combined harvesters in favour of people doing those jobs by hand would not be of any benefit to our material wellbeing, or our emotional happiness. Those are obvious examples, but the principal still applies in less obvious areas too, like tailors with needle and thread.
 
Now in the thread story: White people boogeyman The Black Panthers magically transformed into Brown People, Not Bombed Enough.

I could win moneys on betting where else does this take off to. :hilarious: Ya'all forgot the Mexicans, them Broooown and Already In Ur Country.
 
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