So you think they don't have to worry about a future career? Also the "damaged goods" thing doesn't really apply to men. No one is nagging you to stop watching it, a boycott will never work at this point. The ship has sailed.
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Am I Being A Prude, Or Overly Sensitive?
- Post starter RussH
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Ed Norton
Diamond Member
It's a shame that society is so closed minded and hypocritical. One porn actress has a degree in physics, I believe, many are happily married and have children. You're right many would consider them "damaged" it's just sad. Also you're right, the ship has sailed but long long long ago.
somerandomguy
VIP Member
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Eleanor
Diamond Member
@Ed Norton, I looked up the case, googled it too....lots off hoopla on the blogosphere... but no interview with her.... I wonder how she feels about having her assault discussed in public? It is one thing to be a porn actress, and quite another to be a victim of violent crime. Maybe she doesn't want it publicized. (Or maybe I'm just rotten at searching on the internet!) And the "feminists" who publicize stuff (I'm thinking Gloria Allred here) generally do so for their own gain as much as anything else. And the good ones don't recommend publicity - because it tends to bring out the trolls... I follow the college campus rape stories, and here is one thing we now know for sure - if a person comes out publicly as a rape victim, they get TONS of nasty violent responses. It is not an affirming or reassuring experience.
You are a good guy, Ed. Would that there were more of you. I wouldn't like any of my daughters (or sons for that matter) to sell her body and sexuality, and I would worry if they said they were going to. Because I follow this stuff, and no, sex workers are not treated well, (better in places where it is legal, but still not what you'd hope for) and because I know what a racket modeling is, and how common abuse of models is, I have serious doubts about the degree to which there is meaningful consent, so many gals start as minors... and so very very few people who have no abuse in their past and any other options opt in... well, it gives one pause.
You are a good guy, Ed. Would that there were more of you. I wouldn't like any of my daughters (or sons for that matter) to sell her body and sexuality, and I would worry if they said they were going to. Because I follow this stuff, and no, sex workers are not treated well, (better in places where it is legal, but still not what you'd hope for) and because I know what a racket modeling is, and how common abuse of models is, I have serious doubts about the degree to which there is meaningful consent, so many gals start as minors... and so very very few people who have no abuse in their past and any other options opt in... well, it gives one pause.
Eleanor
Diamond Member
Amen to that.
I am very VERY much in favor of the people working on "body positive" and "sex positive" efforts - and hope that their efforts will make it clear what is objectionable about the value system in place now is, and what a better one would be.
Friday
Sponsor
You know each and every single reference you're making to "sex workers" (gasp), and the ones by too many other posters referring to models as "sad" ... are the exact same ones made about professional women in the 50s-70s??? All you have to do is replace "model" or "actress" with "lawyer" or "doctor" or "mechanic". And you've got the barefoot in the kitchen party line down to the damn letter.
That no man will want them, they'll never raise families, never have a "decent" job, or be respectable, have no value in themselves... And are essentially just calling each and every single person who has ever chosen to work in modeling or film or sex... damaged, disgusting, depraved... Ruiners of society!!!
Makes me sad.
There is as much of a difference between trafficking & forced prostitution... And a chosen job or career in modeling/ sex /film as there is between sex & rape.
One doesn't beget the other. One isn't the other.
Do sweatshops exist? Yes. Does that mean that everyone who has a passion for sewing is being victimized? No. There are spectrums. Sports illustrated? That's a coveted, highly competitive job that people work hard for years to get. To even have a chance at getting.
In all 3 industries... It's a job. Some love it. Some hate it. Most fall somewhere on the bell curve in between. It's not dehumanizing to love your work. It's not dehumanizing for other people to think you might not hate your job. It is dehumanizing for other people to say that only slaves & those who are clearly so stupid as to never make a reasoned, rational decision, following the dictates of their own consciences would make it. That of course you would have to be on drugs, or have no morals, or...
Harlots! Evil doers! Burn the witch! Get back in the kitchen where you belong!
Christ. Makes me furious.
Friday
Sponsor
It is not feminism to say that women can only work "certain" jobs.
It is definitely not feminism to say that women can only work "certain" jobs & be respected.
And if it's so goldurned shameful for women to "show their bodies"... Then apparently the radical Islamic states have the right f*ckin idea and we should all be in burkas.
It is definitely not feminism to say that women can only work "certain" jobs & be respected.
And if it's so goldurned shameful for women to "show their bodies"... Then apparently the radical Islamic states have the right f*ckin idea and we should all be in burkas.
I doubt it. Also, negative attitudes towards career women changed in 20 years. Attitudes towards prostitutes have remained stable since...uh, forever. The virgin/whore dichotomy is rooted in the male brain--it is a reproductive strategy that evolved because men can never be certain of their own paternity. We have birth control and paternity tests now, but on the environment of evolutionary adaptation, we had neither--that's where our social instincts evolved, and now we're stuck with them. If a man gets in your face with pro sex work posturing, ask him if he's dating a sex worker. When he says no, as he inevitably will, ask him, "Why not?"
@Eleanor, please don't be so gullible. As I said, a lot of the happy talk about sex work that is so in vogue these days comes from men who are rationalizing their consumption of something that exacts a price from the providers that is not remotely commensurate to their compensation. "Look how happy the sex workers are! Happy, happy sex workers! Now let me pay my bill and get the f#$k out of here, you f*%king loser."
I'm intrigued by the comments about the levels of pay in modelling, porn and prostitution.
Within people's limited knowledge(1) of the options available to them, they tend to choose the activities from which they expect to get the largest subjective gains for the least subjective costs.
and the deciding level of those gains is "marginal", it only has to be higher than the next best alternative.
I'm no connoisseur of porn, but I don't recall seeing too many people in my own age group showing much in the way of bare skin (the magazines and films probably wouldn't sell very well if they did show their skin - people in our late forties and beyond are not noted for our reproductive fertility - hence in evolutionary terms, we are not usually picked out visually as being desirable mates)
That's a long way of saying that models tend to be in the age range of about 18 to 30 - give or take a few years.
while there are some very intelligent and talented models, porn actors and prostitutes (there was an Irish girl who was a post doc, who was doing page 3 a few years back), not all are necessarily gifted with lots of grey matter
What are the next best paying employment options for a good looking 18 to 30 year old of average or below intelligence?
Or even bright ones, saddled with student debt repayments?
Last time I looked, the alternative earning opportunities were pretty crappy, with many in that age group stuck living at home with their parents or in some pretty crappy shared housing.
Interestingly, one of Europe's party cities (Newcastle-Upon-Tyne) has no red light district, and very little prostitution. There's plenty of bare skin and lewd behaviour (scantily clad and usually over weight girls, rolling out of a bar and pissing on the sidewalk... The Viz comic and it's characters, including "the fat slags" are all inspired by Newcastle).
Self demeaning behaviour, and even abuse, does not require photographs or an exchange of money to make it possible.
______________________________________________
(1) Time after time in mainstream economics, we see the phrase "assuming perfect knowledge"
We never have perfect knowledge. Knowledge is always limited, incomplete and imperfect, and assuming perfect knowledge, abstracts from all of the interesting stuff.
Within people's limited knowledge(1) of the options available to them, they tend to choose the activities from which they expect to get the largest subjective gains for the least subjective costs.
and the deciding level of those gains is "marginal", it only has to be higher than the next best alternative.
I'm no connoisseur of porn, but I don't recall seeing too many people in my own age group showing much in the way of bare skin (the magazines and films probably wouldn't sell very well if they did show their skin - people in our late forties and beyond are not noted for our reproductive fertility - hence in evolutionary terms, we are not usually picked out visually as being desirable mates)
That's a long way of saying that models tend to be in the age range of about 18 to 30 - give or take a few years.
while there are some very intelligent and talented models, porn actors and prostitutes (there was an Irish girl who was a post doc, who was doing page 3 a few years back), not all are necessarily gifted with lots of grey matter
What are the next best paying employment options for a good looking 18 to 30 year old of average or below intelligence?
Or even bright ones, saddled with student debt repayments?
Last time I looked, the alternative earning opportunities were pretty crappy, with many in that age group stuck living at home with their parents or in some pretty crappy shared housing.
Interestingly, one of Europe's party cities (Newcastle-Upon-Tyne) has no red light district, and very little prostitution. There's plenty of bare skin and lewd behaviour (scantily clad and usually over weight girls, rolling out of a bar and pissing on the sidewalk... The Viz comic and it's characters, including "the fat slags" are all inspired by Newcastle).
Self demeaning behaviour, and even abuse, does not require photographs or an exchange of money to make it possible.
______________________________________________
(1) Time after time in mainstream economics, we see the phrase "assuming perfect knowledge"
We never have perfect knowledge. Knowledge is always limited, incomplete and imperfect, and assuming perfect knowledge, abstracts from all of the interesting stuff.
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ouch! that's somewhat harsh
I don't think their intelligence has much to do with the choice. Ask any moron if doing sex work could be positive, and they'll laugh at you for asking such a foolish question. They choose it because they are damaged psychologically, have low self esteem, or are stuck in dire financial straits.
The same goes for most jobs and most people
One of the supporting axioms in economic reasoning is the "disutility of labour" (work sucks).
If work didn't suck, there would be no concept of leisure, we'd all just keep working.
Unfortunately we live in a world of scarcity, and the good things take hard and dis agreeable work to make, and they are exchanged for other things that take hard and disagreeable work to make.
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