News Backfire effect and the amygdala

[desiderata310]

Backfire Effect
My amygdala, the f*cktard
OR My brain, My f*cking core beliefs
And f*ck you for thinking they are wrong!

I have always struggled with pithy titles so hopefully this will attract a little attention.

Some of the hardest things that we all seem to face when we start talking about those topics that mamma always said 'weren't discussed in polite company' (i.e. religion and politics) are because MANY people have built their entire self- their entire core belief system around such things.

Someone suggested I drop this love-nugget bomb in the US politics thread and run but that REALLY didn't seem fair as the topic has now wandered far afield and dropping a bomb like this would either na-palm the whole thread or it would wind up just sputtering out like a wet bottle rocket. I figure that this little study in dealing with core beliefs and the back fire effect etc all really deserved a place of their own for us to -as non-confrontationally as possible- explore.

This is my little love-nugget bomb that got dropped into my consciousness a few months ago when I started my convalescence. I've been poking it with a stick every so often to see if I can get it to do more than wiggle. It usually winds up biting me hard on my ass when I turn my back on it.
Take a read....

You're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you - The Oatmeal

now I want you to think about the last inflammatory news article you read and STOP and think about WHY it pissed you off. I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs or political views.

Then take a listen to the three part series about the Backfire Effect:

All Posts
Scroll down and really listen. There's three parts to the Backfire Effect and it's really interesting to see where our religious and political views get all mucked up and get us all fired up. They talk about everything from the anti-vaxxers to the bias someone gets from hearing an inaccurate story EVEN AFTER THE STORY HAS BEEN CORRECTED BY THE NEWS. Why people get so damn fired up when someone says something like 'The Packers are losers' or I dunno, -insert random core belief here-.

This might prove fun or amusing and gets us away from dealing with all those nasty little terms like "confirmation bias" and "core belief" when we aren't looking at our navels and get them out where we can see these things where they aren't so up close and painfully personal- that is, dealing with politics. Oh wait, I guess that is personal too.:rolleyes:

It's gotten ME thinking and TRYING to challenge and question things both personally AND with my political views or at least to gain more insight as to why I jump to the defensive when I hear certain things.

This isn't a political thread per se (so I might get moved:laugh::ninja:) but it might be an interesting place to read and think about why we get so damn fired up about stuff.

Keep it civil. Keep it sane. kick the mud off yer shoes at the door. We aren't here to tackle someone with this information and beat them into submission (if you listen to the podcast you'll find that doesn't work anyway) and I'll happily thread ban or just lock the topic if it gets mean.

 

[scout86]

'The Packers are losers'

ARE NOT!!! :mad: :)

That was great! And....scary? (in a way) I've heard some of it before. (Maybe from you?) It's something I tend to forget when it comes to beliefs about myself. Other stuff? I think I grew up in a situation where 'reality' was an ever changing thing, so I learned to be flexible and not get too attached to beliefs.

But,it kind of suggests that the best way to change someone's mind might not be by attacking their core beliefs, huh?

 

[desiderata310]

But,it kind of suggests that the best way to change someone's mind might not be by attacking their core beliefs, huh

EXACTLY, there's actually some excellent examples in the podcast. Even one talking about parents who are confused about vaccinations and when or IF they should get those done. THE WORST thing someone could do to a staunchly anti-vaxxer who is breast feeding till three and who knows what else trying to keep their baby safe is to blow up in their face saying "YOU'RE AN IDIOT AND YOU'RE GOING TO KILL YOUR BABY!!"
Hell, I'd shut down too. (I don't mean to pick on any one who's anti-vaxxine it's just fresh in my mind because I recently watched
Vaccines: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) twice in a row because I was too sick to my stomach to find my phone and make it stop casting to the tv)

So when talking to someone about a core belief you have to change where you're coming from with them.
Yes, if you hit someone over the head enough times with headlines that say things that challenge those beliefs (like say, if I hear enough evidence that Obama is Satan, I MIGHT start to listen and maybe start rethinking my views or I might just stop listening to those news sources and only look at ones that support my views) they might start to sway but you're better off coming alongside those folks and trying to see things from their perspective in order to help find what they would need to hear to change their minds. I'm inching my way through another podcast (5 minutes at a time is painful but all I can bare right now) about moral arguments. It's another YANSS podcast so someone who wants to listen to that could probably get way ahead of me on all that.

This all gets tied up in that wonderful argument about 'fake news' what the 'liberal media' is posting and what how we are all getting tied up in a confirmation bias and basically existing in echo chambers of only listening to that which agrees with our views....yada yada yada

 

[desiderata310]

You Are Not So Smart Podcast 088 - Moral Arguments
hell.... here it is... I'm 15 min in so far and thats all for tonight.

 

[joeylittle]

I think the concept is relevant in therapy/psychology as well, really. You can see it around here all the time. Challenging someone's deeply held beliefs about themselves will often lead to them defending those beliefs. Tell me I'm not responsible, and I'll give you 20 reasons why I'm 100% to blame.

It's fascinating stuff.

 

[desiderata310]

so I learned to be flexible and not get too attached to beliefs.

This got me to thinking. I always claimed to have been raised as a 'southern baptist'

I had always considered myself a person of faith but I remember that the 'shift' in that core belief was really not that painful. I pretty much kicked that table leg away all by myself the year my brother passed. I didn't even miss it.

As I look BACK on my childhood, I have to be honest and say that my mother never darkened the door of a church except when my brother got baptized. I was randomly sent to church on Sunday mornings via the church bus so mom could recover from her hangover in peace. I guess it wasn't really a core belief then? Just something that I did out of habit?

 

[scout86]

Just something that I did out of habit?

Maybe. It sounds like it was something your parents wanted you to believe. (Rethinking that, as I'm rereading this. I'm not so sure they cared what you believed. I think it was something that worked for them at the time.) It definitely doesn't sound like anything THEY believed on any level. (Not a huge fan of the Baptists, but there is no real Christian denomination that would have approved of your childhood. Definitely not the Baptists.) So, it kind of sounds like free baby sitting for them and something you grew up accepting as 'what you were supposed to do'. It might also have been a bit of a fig leaf for your parents. Like "how bad could they BE? They send their kids to church."

I think the concept is relevant in therapy/psychology as well, really.

I think so too. I hadn't thought of it in these terms before, but I've run into a few situations where my T says something that really hits a nerve. When I step back and try to sort it out, it doesn't make sense, but the response is still there and still huge. I had decided that when that happens, it means something, and it's a scab I probably ought to dig at a little. I'm kind of thinking it's related to this. I'm also thinking this is why my T keeps going on about the need to 'engage higher cognitive functions'. Because that's the way to defuse this.

I'm also wondering if the 'evil dictators' of the world, should they be smart enough to be into this kind of thing, can't use it to manipulate, divide, and control people. You don't even have to understand the technicalities, you just have to have a feel for how people operate. (It's a conspiracy theory kind of day here.)

 

[desiderata310]

I actually got started with all this stuff because it was so PTSD related but it's been easier for me to explore at the macro level than looking at my cognitive dissonances and wade through that muck.Given our current political climate (we are most strongly divided than we have been since the 60's I think is what I heard last night) that no one is bothering to listen to anyone else.
So when you look at that it's going to take a really strong effort to REFRAME statements in order to win over someone who is staunchly against your ideas. That means appealing to these ideas of loyalty and patriotism if your a lib talking to a republican for instance when making a statement to win them over. Otherwise you're just pissing in the wind.

Like "how bad could they BE? They send their kids to church."

That reminds me about something that I need to write about in my Trauma Diary

J is also trying (we both are) to engage those higher cognitive functions in sessions. It's tricky because we're in 'thar be tigers' country and I'm stumbling unwittingly into nasty triggers that leave us struggling the rest of the session to get back to talking. Frustrating as hell because I WANT to make that progress and sort it out but I keep getting f slammed up against the wall and wind up struggling with dissociation or worse falling right into flashback. J's gotten a little better about seeing it and helping me but the shift is very subtle evidently and he misses it sometimes.
At the sociological or the psychological level though it's still seems if we want to change our own core beliefs that we are looking at letting our pinky toe have its day and allow it to scream its head off. I think I'm beginning to understand why trauma therapy takes so damn long.

 

[Justmehere]

I'm reading a book called Dead Link Removed. The author actually talks about just this effect --- and so much more. One of the things the Haidt states is that "the human mind is a story processor, not a logic processor."

The worst dictators became dictators in part because they told a powerful story. Hitler told a powerful (and very factually wrong) story of who was really at fault. Good leaders also tend to bring in followers because of a powerful story. Jesus and his parables, MLK Jr and his dream, etc.

Look at advertising today. It all tells a story. Look at Coca Cola ads - do they factually list out all the reasons one should logically buy Coke? Nope. They tell a story that you will be cool, sexy, loved, happy, quenched... and sometimes, despite all logic, people drink it up.

Trauma, and the perps of my trauma, told one LOUD and powerful story that was hard to ignore. My brain hung on to it for dear life. I blamed me for all the trauma because while it made no logical or factual sense, it told a story that allowed me to function within trauma I couldn't escape. But it's factually baseless.

it doesn't really change much for me to have that insight. I can logic and reason it out, but damn, the story that wins is the stupid pinky toe's story.

But sometimes through experience and habitual learning, and endless attempts to quiet the pinky toe, and somatic work, and new experiences... I begin to hear the new story. I begin to live a new story. A little.

 

[Deadman]

I'm also wondering if the 'evil dictators' of the world, should they be smart enough to be into this kind of thing, can't use it to manipulate, divide, and control people.

No conspiracy required. The dictators of the world have been using their knowledge of people's need to confirm their core beliefs from the beginning of time. That's why it's so easy for them to stand up and yell, "It's the Mexicans", "it's the Muslims", "it's the Jews","it's the old white guys", "it's the patriarchy". Confirm someone's core beliefs and they will follow you.

 

[desiderata310]

The dictators of the world have been using their knowledge of people's need to confirm their core beliefs from the beginning of time.

Non-partisan look at what Trump's campaign. He talked about patriotism. He talked about 'Making America Great Again' . He appealed to those hidden things that people don't talk about that scare and worry people about losing jobs.
Hillary did the same. Appealing to the ideas of equality.

Problem is they were/are speaking only to their constituents and didn't bother to appeal to the people on the other side. They didn't TRY. The entire country got whipped up into a horrible fervor and it was pitting people against one another. I mean I had to try hard not to 'unfriend' people on Facebook who didn't agree with my personal views. I had to try hard to listen through all of it and try to talk to them through the emotion. :bored: But everyone's amygdala had kicked in at that point yelling 'Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!' and all was pretty much lost at that point.

 

[Deadman]

I had to try hard not to 'unfriend' people on Facebook who didn't agree with my personal views. I had to try hard to listen through all of it and try to talk to them through the emotion.

Yes! That's the way. Engage with people whose views differ from yours. You can disagree, debate, push back and forth and still be civil. Life is not a zero-sum game.