C-ptsd Information.

[Jovie]

I have a PTSD diagnosis, and I've heard that C-PTSD isn't really recognized in the mental health community (not yet anyways), but I wanted to know a little more about it, I've read some stuff saying that people with C-PTSD never really had a "self" before their trauma because their trauma was their whole self, they were submerged in it their whole lives, or a big part of it. There isn't one single event that I can say "I was okay before this happened", to me, I was always this way, there was never any other ways, does anyone here know anything else on this topic?

thank you for reading.

 

[LindaMadHatter]

Hi there :)

I don't have a lot of information on the topic either I'm afraid. I've been looking for a long time, however most of my information on C-PTSD comes from my psychologist. Online material seems to focus on single or single-ish, events.

I do understand what you are saying and I feel the same frustrations. There is a lot out there on "normal" PTSD - however I find that a lot of it isn't relevant or useful given the nature of "I've ALWAYS been like this".

I think the other thing I've found hard is this - I will always BE like this. People talk about "getting better" but that doesn't apply to me. I need to learn to cope and adapt who I am to fit society, because who I am is "different".

 

[anthony]

Hi Jovie,

You are correct, there is actually no such thing as CPTSD. As of right now, there won't be in the next diagnostic manual either, as it has already been discarded for various reasons.

The aspect of "always being this way" actually isn't about PTSD, hence the confusion and why CPTSD isn't a real diagnosis, or going to be one anytime soon. That is about the duration of trauma you have lived, which stems directly into personality disorders formed in adulthood due to childhood longevity abuse.

See the distinct difference and why CPTSD has been rejected? Trauma has nothing to do with personality symptoms. You can recover PTSD symptoms uniquely, but you still have more than likely personality issues due to childhood. One is not relevant to the other for mental health diagnosis, and vastly different areas.

Personality "always being this way" is its own area of trauma therapy, which requires far more succinct and empathetic approaches, combined with trauma therapy, in order to recover. Personality takes many years (decade even) of hard work to change and even understand in order to change.

Personality has never had anything to do with PTSD, and this is why CPTSD does not actually exist, even though some tried hard to get it to exist, that is why it got rejected. Hopefully you can see the clear distinction with why now!

People confuse trauma with behaviour (personality). Whilst trauma affects personality, it is longevity that actually makes personality instinctive, not trauma. Trauma symptoms (PTSD), no longer have any real connection with the personality that has formed. Again, you can remove the symptoms, thus PTSD diagnosis, yet the personality aspects would remain, which are by themselves just as damaging and create there own symptoms uniquely.

 

[LindaMadHatter]

Last time I checked, apathy is still up for consideration in the DSM5 as a mental illness, and prominant psychiatrists, one of whom wrote the current version, were wondering what the hell the current committee is thinking with half the stuff they want to include, so I'm personally not holding out much hope for the next version myself.

And with respect - I beg to differ on your theory that CPTSD does not exist. I understand the theory that Borderline Personality Disorder and CPTSD are one and the same, however in my experience, they are two different things. Mainly because, as you say, trauma and personality symptoms are two different things. While there is not much, there is enough research out there at the moment that suggests that CPTSD is indeed a diagnosis on its own, though for sure, much more research needs to be done yet (not to mention more education).

What I am talking about has nothing to do with personality. I don't presume to speak for anyone else, so will keep this personal.

One of the reasons why I do not believe that all of "who I am" comes down to personality issues, is that one of the things I am talking about is memory problems, which my trauma specialising psych puts down to CPTSD. She puts it down to this because there is nothing wrong with my memory when it comes to emergency situations, or perceived emergency situations. I actually didn't believe her at first, thinking that I was just an idiot, until she asked me where all the exits were at my local shopping centre, and I realised I knew them all. My brain remembers things that it finds "important" and filters out everything else. This is due to the way neural pathways were formed as a child. In my mind, my memory problems are not a personality trait any more than dementia is.

A friend of mine once put it this way in her thesis - if your brain is a house, then people with PTSD have an injury like termites eating away a wall. It can be "fixed" though of course everyone is different on how, and how long it will take, and maybe some things will linger. People with CPTSD have uneven foundations - the brain is damaged while it is still growing in the infant/toddler years and even beyond, thus, fixing it may not even be possible (though current research into plasticity of the brain is encouraging).

In any event - there are a lot of things that I can not relate to in this forum (or any other, or books on the subject, etc). I can not answer "What does PTSD feel like", because I have nothing to compare it to. I can tell you what disassociation feels like,and what panic attacks feel like, but not PTSD as a whole.

I have no concept of life "before" disassociating, because I've always done it. My sense of fight/flight has always been heightened in comparison to other people. My memory has always been bad. There are other things as well - all of which I've lived with my whole life, and none of which are personality related. When people with PTSD speak of getting "better" they seem to imagine a life as they had before - this is something I can't relate to.

To give your personality argument some credit (on the other hand) - I have a very black and white view of morality at times, which stems from the abuse. That is personality :) But I'm keeping it :) There are personality aspects (which is how so many of us get wrongly diagnosed with BPD), however there are many other aspects as well. Whether or not that "classifies" as a whole other diagnosis is something I'm sure will continue to be debated for a while to come. Which is not really relevant to the larger point I'm trying to make anyway.

A lot of people consider themselves to be CPTSD sufferers, and from what I've seen, they do this because their greater experience is vastly different. I really don't relate to "normal" PTSD any more than I do to bipolar, or depression.

This is what I meant by "who I am" and reference to "before". I meant in relation to trauma symptoms - not personality.

Thank you for this forum. I can see that it is helping a lot of people and that is great. Over the last few weeks, I've become increasingly discouraged by the lack of information on complex PTSD, and like I've said, the "normal" PTSD stuff just doesn't resonate with me at all. I was hoping that there would be an area here where I would "fit", but I guess not :) Anyway - for what it's worth, that is my view on my "illness".

Oh, and by the way - I LOVE the way you've worded the rules for this place. Just awesome :)

 

[Sterre]

Thank you for this forum. I can see that it is helping a lot of people and that is great. Over the last few weeks, I've become increasingly discouraged by the lack of information on complex PTSD, and like I've said, the "normal" PTSD stuff just doesn't resonate with me at all. I was hoping that there would be an area here where I would "fit", but I guess not :) Anyway - for what it's worth, that is my view on my "illness".

Wow, what an excellent writing and clear view you've written down! Compliments!

I relate to much you wrote down , except the last sentences. There is an amount of information on the internet as well as information on this forum about CPTSD.

Being diagnosed with CPTSD myself I find a lot of relevant information in this forum and in the pieces people here write down. So I dont understand what you mean by not much information or not fitting in on this forum when you have CPTSD?
Are you refering to the lack of information about DiS or DID?

 

[anthony]

The problem is that people keep using this term CPTSD, when what they mean is complex trauma. Complex trauma is real... CPTSD is not.

There is a distinct difference between PTSD (trauma) and BPD (ongoing constant physical / psychological / emotionally abuse / neglect during childhood. Whilst it is traumatic, the majority still only endup with PTSD. Some of those who endure such longevity develop a personality disorder. The first is still PTSD, the second is PTSD + personality disorder.

There is no diagnostic criteria for CPTSD, so nobody, and I mean, nobody, can be diagnosed with CPTSD, because there is no diagnostic criteria to be diagnosed with it.

People need to stop confusing the term vs. using it as a diagnostic label. They are vastly different and distinct.

Until an actual diagnostic criterion exists for CPTSD to be diagnosed, then it is impossible for any mental health professional to tell a client they have something that physically does not exist in any mental health doctrine to date.

I may as well just make up my own diagnosis and tell people they have that, perpetuate a new rumour and myth, hoping it will turn into a diagnosis.

Complex trauma, real. Complex PTSD, no such thing.

Should I go and say I am diagnosed with Combat PTSD? That is a label used to identify veterans because we have far heightened anxiety, anger, hypervigilance, startle response, etc... clearly identifiable specifics and unique qualities in some context from a normal PTSD diagnosis, however; all veterans have PTSD + x, y, z... they DO NOT have Combat PTSD, which there is no such diagnosis.

The only diagnosis that exists as off the moment of posting this post is "PostTraumatic Stress Disorder". There is nothing else... people need to stop trying to convince themselves they have something that physically does not exist. How can you be diagnosed with something that physically DOES NOT have a diagnostic criteria?

This is why mental health diagnosis should be reserved purely for psychiatrists only, as there are too many crooks in the industry trying to create stuff and sell it to vulnerable persons in order to profit.

 

[Sterre]

I understand what you are stating Anthony, as you did many times in the last months.

I understand that there is no official diagnose as CPTSD, or Combat-trauma, it is PTSD.

But at this forum and outside of it, people and therapist understand what you mean by these diagnosis wich arent real diagnosis. It makes it easier to communicate, and get a quick image of what it is youre dealing with.
But I understand that you dont want it to be called that way?
How would you like it to be reffered to? ( Complex trauma or BPD+ PTSD?)

So if I read it correctly I dont suffer Complex trauma, but BPD with PTSD? And it isnt the same as PTSD? :alien:

I stand corrected as I dont understand what you are saying actually?

 

[LindaMadHatter]

I'm sorry Anthony - I haven't been "diagnosed" with CPTSD - I said my psychologist put it down to that. There is a difference - she doesn't actually use labels at all - but I do. Weird perhaps, but it works for us.

I don't have BPD. *shrug* I do not fit the diagnostic criteria. However I do not relate to people when they talk about PTSD either. So I identify at having CPTSD as when people talk about it, that is what I relate to.

I have my reality. I have my explanations and what works for me in describing how I feel and what I go through. None of it may fit into some diagnostic criteria, but that doesn't make it any less real. My brain doesn't read the DSM before it decides to something strange or different.

Sterre - thank you for your compliment :) *blush*. In regards to information, I mean things along the lines of memory loss and other neurological symptoms. My tertiary education is in child development, so I've been looking for information on that side of things. I must admit though - I don't get to look very hard very often - I have a physical disability too which hinders things a bit ;-)

 

[Nicolas Connault]

Perhaps it would be more useful if everyone invented their own "label" for their own unique case. After all, it is unique and different for each person. Mental illness isn't like physical illness in the sense that most of the time we don't know all the causes, all the interactions, all the ramifications. A diagnostic label has some usefulness but it also segregates people, pushes them through pre-defined shapes (if it will fit!), and when it doesn't fit they are useless, and are in fact very invalidating.

Who cares whether it's called CPTSD or complex trauma or thingamagic, the name you give it doesn't change your experience of it, and it probably gives people the wrong impression anyway because when you call it PTSD (for example), people will think of you as being "like" other people with PTSD, when in fact that's pretty much impossible.

 

[jimmy-joe]

One point that seems to be missed here is that PTSD is not a cookie-cutter disease like pneumonia or influenza or even cancer. Meds don't make it go away, you can't just follow the steps and erase it. It's conditioned thought patterns, overextended fear(my own term, I mean the hypervigilance), and whatever effects come out of being that stressed out that long(in a nutshell).

That being said, no two traumatic experiences are the same. Because you react similar, or because some of the same things scare you, or because of the depression, or similar experiences, these are the things you would relate to, not PTSD. (about relating to PTSD vs. CPTSD)

Also, about BPD, I don't think he meant it as a term for repetitive trauma, but more what would most likely result from long-term trauma. I say this because BPD is an axis II diagnosis. Whereas PTSD and ADD, ODD, bipolar, etc. are all Axis I diagnosis.

In treatment I was told BPD (I had Borderline Personality Traits cause I was still a minor) doesn't get diagnosed without an Axis I diagnosis. Also, from interwebz research later, I learned that everyone displays BPD traits to some extent, since a large part of it is the emotional development being stunted at a young age(hence the longer abuse generally).

And as what to say instead of CPTSD... why not just "Complex trauma" or PTSD from long-term abuse, or "Severe PTSD"...

The DSM was conceived and implemented by human beings, and as such, is at risk of fault. But at the same time,

Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Does it have a quadruple helix or something? Where does the extra complexity come in? How is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder not complex? Throwing a "complex" onto it does nothing but add confusion, whether people get it or not. Also it kinda casts a shadow on PTSD like, "oh well my PTSD isn't complex, so it's not as bad."

Of course that sort of thinking in and of itself is wrong, due to the fact that there is no sliding scale for how someone is effected by events.

There is no CPTSD because PTSD is already so weird that it wouldn't need that sort of modifier.

Now what WOULD make sense would be, "Childhood Post Traumatic Stress Disorder".

P.S. Dissociation wouldn't feel like anything unless you influenced yourself to feel a particular way. Because it is Dissociation from physical/emotional/psychological pain. It is the removal of a feeling, not a feeling.

P.P.S. I saw the comment above after I posted :D

 

[Martin Taylor]

First of all, congrats to everyone for staying civil in this discussion. It says a lot about the quality of the people here. That helps me navigate it. What I am getting is that a Diagnosis (capital "D") must fit specific guidelines to be recognized by the medical community, insurance industry, and generally the entire organized world. To keep the system honest, and keep out the crooks, that is necessary, reasonable, and honest. It can also be a pigeon hole that will only be modified when enough experts (and I mean this respectfully) agree on a standard diagnosis. However, there does seem to be a difference between people such as myself, that do not have a single or protracted event (such as combat or physical assault) but instead have prolonged periods of "childhood issues". I also do not remember what "normal" is even "healthy". My memory is lousy, most of the times, and I find myself similar to LindaMadHatter. My most humble opinion is that the term "complex" is more of a description (small "d") than a Diagnosis and helps people such as myself come to a better understanding. Perhaps it results in a different manifestation, perhaps not, I don't know enough to guess.

 

[Martin Taylor]

Boy did I just learn a few things! I just read up on BPD and axis 1 and 2 materials, etc. Another blinding flash of the obvious that I knew nothing about, time for me to go think. Great thread ,Jovie, thanks for posting it.