C-ptsd Information.

[LindaMadHatter]

Jimmy-joe - lol in a morbid way about the term "complex" - reminds me of being in hospital and hearing people go off about self-inflicted wounds being called "superficial" by emergency department staff. To the staff, that is the proper medical term, but to the clients, it was insinuating that it wasn't good enough to be attended to or something. Same thing I guess. Perhaps we do need a new term then (and to be fair, most people I know with BPD would like a new term also :) ).

Martin - I agree with your summary :)

On BPD being an axis II diagnosis - I really wish psychiatrists would start treating it as one! My vent for the day.

 

[Nicolas Connault]

Axis II disorders are supposed to be pervasive, resistant to change, and to contribute to the onset of Axis I disorders. They're called "Personality" disorders because most theorists believe that personality is set in stone once your childhood is over. It's a bit of a tautology though, because therapists use it to explain why certain patients do certain things, although it explains nothing. "She self-harms? Ah of course, she's borderline... ". So what next? Why is she "borderline", and what can you do about it?

The answer is usually "nothing, you don't get cured from Axis II disorders, it's just who you are." Cold comfort: you pathologise a complete person, essentially saying "You're broken, sorry. Now stop cutting yourself, you're making a mess and costing us precious time we could spend on people with REAL issues." Life is hard enough when your personality "fits in" with current societal norms, it's even harder when you get this kind of invalidation all around you.

The funny thing is that people with certain personality "disorders" actually thrive in our culture. Have you ever wondered how many psychiatrists have narcissistic personality disorder? How many PhD students have clinical perfectionism? How many actors have histrionic personality disorder? Not sure if actors actually thrive though, or if it's just an illusion :-)

 

[jimmy-joe]

Linda, that isn't the same thing, A) because superficial is not a medical term, a "superficial wound" is merely near the surface, which is how they refer to any wound that is superficial, so those people who complained, merely didn't know the definition of "superficial".

And B) that has nothing to do with the complexity of PTSD. No professional would refer to it as a "proper mental health term" because it is not one, if it is used by someone in the mental health field, they are using it as their own label for something.

On BPD being an axis II diagnosis - I really wish psychiatrists would start treating it as one!

What do you mean? I also went Link Removed for a more technical definition

However, there does seem to be a difference between people such as myself, that do not have a single or protracted event (such as combat or physical assault) but instead have prolonged periods of "childhood issues".

There is a difference, but the difference is not unlike a piece of pumpkin pie, vs. several pieces of pumpkin pie.

I use one image because, simply put, you will NOT find someone with the same symptoms/habits/fears/events/relationships/life as you NO MATTER WHAT. So someone who gets hit by a car could have MUCH worse PTSD symptoms than say, me, another abused kid. Someone who grew up with a loving family may do way better with combat than someone who grew up fighting for their life on the streets.
There's no point in bothering with terms outside of PTSD for ptsd because EVERY SINGLE situation is different. Every person handles things differently, every person has a different moral code, every person is a unique individual.

I also do not remember what "normal" is even "healthy".

I'm not sure what you mean, but then again, my "normal" is no emotion.

One thing that idk if it applies here, but it's nagging at me, is that some peeps talk like PTSD changes who you are. It doesn't, you develop differently than you would've without the trauma, but the future is entirely uncertain, maybe in the alternate life a tornado drops a mobile home on you when you are 20. There's no point worrying about what your life could've been without it, because the entirety of what is important now is your present and future (with lessons and good memories learned and enjoyed from the past).

And I've run out of steam

P.S. I'm looking back on this now and I have little idea how it links in with the above comments other than to dispute points that I feel are wrong, which now tells me what I was trying to do in writing this :p

P.P.S. I realize I may have mistook some of what you guys said :D

P.P.P.S. Using the house id

 

[jimmy-joe]

My brain remembers things that it finds "important" and filters out everything else. This is due to the way neural pathways were formed as a child.

Intrigued me so I googled neural pathways for a refresher, you can change those paths, and you can open more paths with practice.

I got to this site Link Removed and remembered \/ so stopped looking.

I pull up a vague supporting detail here in that I was reading ... Scientific Mind, or Journal, something like that, anything with robots attracts me, and I learned about this experiment, (I forget who/where but it was like a year ago I think) where they had... 200? people from 20s all the way up to 80s i think(age) who could remember and repeat chains of from 5-15ish numbers that they have a minute(or 2) to study, and throughout the course of the experiment, they kept practicing remembering more and more numbers until after a year every participant could remember chains of over 80 numbers given the same study time.

Disclaimer: I read about this while waiting for my therapist a long time ago, so it's sorta paraphrased, and I'm pretty sure the participant count is wrong, the time to study could have been up to 5 minutes, and the age range may have been more focused toward older ages. Other than that it's pretty much on the money.

My point. CPTSD still doesn't make sense because aside from having drastically more enforced abuses(generally, assuming childhood abuse, which is the only reason anyone has given for CPTSD that I've seen), everything else is still the same. The symptoms all come from a misfiring sense of danger(paraphrased again, but feel free to debate that point).

As for feeling like you can't relate to someone with PTSD vs. CPTSD(can only come into play if childhood trauma is present?).... Ok? That is purely based upon perceptions. You can relate to someone who doesn't relate to you at all, any person who relates to me is an example :D.

A person who displays hypervigilance, distorted thinking patterns, abnormal startle responses, memory issues(those, when not related to brain damage, or just not a very good memory, are often occurring as part of a dissociative issue, and also, memory has nothing(or little) to do with intelligence(tho I hear the smarter you are generally better memory, as to the feeling like an idiot thing), avoidance, nightmares, anger problems, lack of focus, racing thoughts, depression, obsessive compulsions, anything else? Meets the criteria for PTSD. I don't see where CPTSD differentiates from that.

You can change severely established thought patterns, and you can lead a life you enjoy, even if things still pop up and nag you. That's the "normal" ya'll lost folks should be looking for. Just cause we never knew what the "norm" is, doesn't mean we can't find it. I mean, especially taking into account the fact that "normal" in terms of humans, with the exception of "normal" meaning unique, is impossible. There is no "normal" human.

P.S. Also, I've been really stressed out lately, and I'm a rather obsessive arguer, so hence the flotillas of words.
P.P.S. That was a way of saying, "if I step on your toes, I 'pologize"

 

[jimmy-joe]

Lol really u should ignore everything i say lol.

 

[maddog]

Well, this has proven to be a most fascinating and stimulating intellectual debate... and who doesn't enjoy one of those from time to time.

For me, that's really all it is though - an opportunity to test theoretical perspectives and philosophical positions against one another and debate the pros and cons of a series of words, that become labels, that become definitives... which is when they become more dangerous and less constructive.

For me, when I sit in my T's office, or wake up to each new day of my life, complete with all of the bits and pieces of my thoughts and emotions, my past and present, it doesn't matter to me what it's called. What it's called is irrelevant to my subjective experience of a condition that can't be compared/contrasted with anyone else's, or fitted exactly into a box, or matched with an exact cure that will help it all to go away. What I have is what it is... and that's about all.

For the sake of my information and enlightenment, when I first disclosed my past traumas and began focused work with my T, we discussed the fact that my situation was compatible with the proposed category of PTSD called C/PTSD, for x y and z reasons. Beyond that initial discussion, we haven't referred to the label again or bothered ourselves with it at all. Suits me!

Maddog

 

[Martin Taylor]

Me too.

 

[Jovie]

I think what some of you guys stated is correct, I was never really given the diagnosis for BPD (as I was PTSD) but my therapist did tell me I had some BPD characteristics, he wasn't going to give me that diagnosis because he said I wasn't extreme and he would only tell that to people who were extreme, I think this whole psych thing is just confusing, how can you really measure people this way? everyone seems to have a little here and a little there, I've always wanted a clear cut definition, probably because I always thought it would help me understand myself because most of the time I simply don't.

 

[Sterre]

After rereading this topic, I only get more confused:confused:

It's probably due to the language barrier that I cannot grasp what acctually is being said in this topic.

For what I understand about what has been written here, is that Complex trauma is really BPD, only in a different name?

Is complex trauma the same as BPD?

I know there was a recent topic and question about it, but I cannot seem to find it anywhere.
Can someone enlighten me please?

Sorry if it is stated clearly in this topic, but I dont understand it due to the language barrier.

 

[jimmy-joe]

BPD generally comes from long-term abuse as a child, since a large part of it is your emotional development doesn't progress like normally, but every human being displays traits of BPD to some extent, and you don't have to be abused to develop BPD (though probably that's where most of it comes from).

Complex trauma, from what it looks like off this website, is people referring to numerous traumas(usually starting in childhood). But is not actually a diagnosis, or if it is, lol, idk why bother... PTSD symptoms are still PTSD symptoms even if they seem to pervade a person's personality. A PTSD diagnosis doesn't depend upon the event(s) beyond that it is harmful/life threatening.

They are not one and the same. BPD is usually diagnosed along with something else, like PTSD or other anxiety disorders (one symptom of BPD is desperate attempts to avoid real and perceived abandonment.) (My ex showed that one a LOT.)

how can you really measure people this way?

Diagnosis of these things are more useful as a general identifier. There's no way in hell we could develop any of these diagnosis or any mental disorder, probably

A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern generally associated with subjective distress or disability that occurs in an individual, and which is not a part of normaldevelopment or culture.

to a level where you can measure a person.
Especially since the diagnoses are patterns of thought/behavior(which often rely a large part upon the patient's answers, aka whatever that person is willing to discuss. Sort of like how some people go on with their lives and PTSD w/o treatment, and no-one ever knows because they never told anyone anything that would get them diagnosed). NOT DISEASES. Sorry, really annoyed at how people constantly cast around and discuss treatments like they are at the pharmacy. (general annoyance :D not at you)

(Yes I know that some of the disorders have to do with physical issues with the brain/body)

Lol now I'm just stressed out cause I'm pretty sure the neighbor's guest is hurting someone again, and pissed cause I reread

To the staff, that is the proper medical term, but to the clients, it was insinuating that it wasn't good enough to be attended to or something. Same thing I guess.

this inanity. (LOL, the perceived implication of this statement is that you are relating me to a self-harmer who has a small vocabulary. Which is hilarious cause I spent over a decade getting my ass beat, and then reading the dictionary outloud for misusing the new words(among many other punishments for just about every other conceivable thing a child can do.)) (+ side is that by 7th grade I was reading at 4th year of college comprehension :D)

(and to be fair, most people I know with BPD would like a new term also :) )

Perhaps that is because the words are, Borderline Personality Disorder. That doesn't exactly sound very good...

I am talking about is memory problems, which my trauma specialising psych puts down to CPTSD. She puts it down to this because there is nothing wrong with my memory when it comes to emergency situations, or perceived emergency situations.

Unless you suffered literal brain damage, memory problems would generally come from whatever genetics affect memory, or dissociation(in terms of trauma-relation). It wouldn't be BECAUSE of CPTSD or PTSD...

I actually didn't believe her at first, thinking that I was just an idiot, until she asked me where all the exits were at my local shopping centre, and I realised I knew them all. My brain remembers things that it finds "important" and filters out everything else. This is due to the way neural pathways were formed as a child.

Ok so you trained yourself as a child to disregard things not dangerous... that is training. You can train out of that. I mean literally that is how you "Cure" any PTSD, is to train yourself not to have that overwhelming fear response to your triggers. (This does not need a template for guidance. If you do not react as fearfully to the trigger, you are making progress...)

Both my brother and I have loads of trained habits. I for instance, keep track of everyone within sight/hearing at all times unless I'm too tired to keep that thought process up. Or leaving the sink on a little so the cat can drink, both of us do it unconsciously at different houses, in buildings, etc, even though the cat lives in our apartment and is afraid of the outside. Or driving. Or doing soil sample testing at the lab.
You can train yourself to do all sorts of things, at most ages.

P.S. Yes the bottom part of this was in annoyance. But still, would love to debate it :D, not that anyone will, everyone just says my arguments are wrong and don't often have an actual counter-point :D (exaggeration a little yes, but it's pretty common)
P.P.S. Also, 80% of the reason I'm arguing is purely cause of the annoyance of watching people discuss this stuff like the leading edge of technology, with the cure right around the corner, when half the time they are overlooking the obvious ways to improve/problems. (Generalization I know, but it happens enough to be annoyed)

 

[Ben]

Here's what I don't understand.

PTSD has, as one of the requirements in the DSM-IV, that a person must have "direct personal experience of an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious injury, or other threat to one's physical integrity;" or witnessing or learning about such an event.

So no matter how long or how much stress a person has endured, at any time in their life, if a physical threat or harm wasn't involved, they cannot be diagnosed with PTSD, based on the DSM.

It was my understanding that CPTSD was proposed for people, like me, who have the symptoms of PTSD, but who cannot be diagnosed with it because the threats and stress didn't involve physical injury. This would apply whether the stress occurred in childhood or adulthood.

So, let's say someone endured prolonged stress as an adult, that didn't involve threats of physical injury. They have the symptoms of PTSD but they can't have PTSD. They can't have BPD because symptoms didn't begin by early adulthood. What do they have? That's the gap that I thought CPTSD was supposed to fill, in addition to childhood stress that didn't involve physical threats.

Actually, I think it would make more sense to drop the requirement for physical violence and use the label of PTSD for any severe stress that causes the defined symptoms. But if that's not gonna happen, adding CPTSD to the DSM is another way to acknowledge that intense stress causes lasting symptoms, regardless what the source of the stress is.

 

[SimplyComplex]

Having a mother with actual, full fledged BPD with a strong Narcissistic traits (diagnosed), and several other people in my world who are also diagnosed, I think that it is far less common then it gets thrown around here. Its as if people behind this site took a stand that everyone with a PTSD from complex childhood trauma has to have a "personality disorder" and it gets stated as fact over and over. Its absurd. Many of us with childhood trauma (ummm...all) are going to have personality disruptions. But this is far from a full fledged disorder. They are not the same thing. Are there people here with PDs? Absolutely. But I doubt most people who have complex childhood trauma disorders have PDs. There is cross over. But it just isn't the same thing...

And I want to add that people with PDs (besides a few awful ones) do make progress and get healthier if they make a commitment. This goes the same for people who have complex childhood trauma. PD or no PD, it takes time and commitment and a whole mountain of work.