Childhood Child On Child Sexual Abuse?

[RussH]

I can’t believe people liked that invalidating bullshit

The reality is the vast majority of children will play doctor at some point. It is a part of normal curiosity. However, as I have written, his wanting her to touch him crossed the line.
I did not write my comment to invalidate anything. The OP asked a question, and I gave an answer.

 

[Lucycat]

I do find this whole topic quite difficult. I recall playing doctors and asking to look at my younger cousins 'parts'. Nothing more and I am ashamed. And yes I was already a victim of sexual abuse from an adult by then. Was this normal exploration or a result of my abuse? Who can tell? Not black and white at all.

 

[mary1979]

As all the different perspectives here show, its not clear cut.

And I don't think this kind of experience can be gauged purely by age.

More about the initiator/follower scenario.

Did one child feel pressured into something they didn't want to do?
Was there any threat or intimidation involved?
Did both parties seem ok with this idea and were just having a look around?

I have an experience that ill share, feels really personal, but I think its a good explanation for what I'm trying to say.

I was sexually abused from birth.
Consequently I was fairly well versed in sexual gratification and knew what was what by age 7 at the latest, possibly sooner but this is where my memories of awareness begin.

At around age 11 I was staying at my aunts overnight.
Her son was 16.

We were hanging out in his room and the conversation got silly before turning to something a little more sinister.
My cousin who was a virgin and clearly had no clue, encouraged me to first touch him and then stick his penis between my legs and rub
He didn't get 'there' and I actually believe that he thought he was doing it right.
I remember lying on the bed in a wet patch and thinking 'bro you got no idea what to do with that thing do you?'
I thought it hilarious but I didn't embarrass him by saying so.

I wasn't at all fazed by the incident, actually even then I recognised his fumblings as normal exploration.

Many many years later we had a few too many drinks together, got talking and he suddenly burst into tears apologising.
All that time he believed he had molested me.
I had to spend the night consoling him, it was really sad he had lived with that shame for almost 20 years with no real reason.

He forced nothing on me.
I was a willing participant. And was in fact much more experienced than he.


But would anyone hearing basic facts of age and size difference (he was almost 6 foot tall and I a wee baby of 11) have thought I the instigator and he the victim?

Hell no.. But that's how it ended.

 

[Lucycat]

As all the different perspectives here show, its not clear cut.

I agree. That is so important for people to understand, because when it is seen as black and white the nuances get lost. You have so clearly described your own experience - and from the viewpoint of you both. Thank you for that - I think it really helps to explain.

 

[EveHarrington]

@Socha

I can't help but feel that nobody has given you any validation for your trauma. I don't know your story, but has anyone ever fully accepted your trauma and fully accepted you/your feelings/etc regarding the trauma? Perhaps a family member, a close friend, or therapist? I have a feeling that if you had received such acceptance from those who love you that the opinions of the rest of the world wouldn't matter so much. I hope that one day you can move to a more secure place where you feel your trauma/abuse is validated.




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"Playing doctor" or other types of childhood curiosity is an incredibly grey area. Condemning all such acts as abusive isn't the right avenue nor is dismissing it all as normal childhood curiosity. It really is a case by case sort of thing IMHO.

 

[Socha]

This is not about me and my trauma is not the topic of this thread so I’m not going to go into it here. If your questions were actually not just rhetorical and you really expected me to answer them, feel free to PM me.
The opinions of those who I trust and feel comfortable with sharing details of my trauma truly matter to me. The rest of the world? Not so much. They can all jump to conclusions in a single bound when it comes to myself and I’m fine with it but when someone is being told that what the OP has experienced is no big deal because it was just kids playing around when it was clearly not playing I just can’t ignore it.

I’ve done my research for years so I’m well aware how and at what age children explore their sexual behavior and that’s exactly why it’s so upsetting to see how even people who know the impact that trauma and abuse can have and claim to know about the topic, can be so ignorant. It’s not the first thread I’ve seen people’s experiences being minimized and invalidated and it really bothers me.

Normal sexual exploration in childhood does not create feelings of deep shame and humiliation. It’s not normal among children to ignore another child’s well-being. And as I’ve stated before sexual exploration is carried out between children with mutual consent and happens out of curiosity on both sides.

 

[Lucycat]

It’s not the first thread I’ve seen people’s experiences being minimized and invalidated

It is not minimizing and invalidating, - more about exploring possibilities and options. I hope the OP sees it in the same vein as I do, that there are a lot of variabilities and posibilities in all scenarios. She must pick what suits her and ignore the rest.

No one has posted with the intention of upsetting the OP , just providing 'food for thought'. There are many of us with our own experiences that contradict each other. It does not mean any one is wrong or right, we just have different experiences and different interpretations of those experiences.

I am not looking to start any argument. I just want to offer comfort and a hand of understanding to the OP.

 

[EveHarrington]

@Socha

My questions were real and out of genuine concern-----I wouldn't ask a rhetorical question of this nature as that would simply be rude IMHO. I see no dismissives in this thread and it appears that topics regarding normal childhood exploration are a hot button for you.

I think that perhaps it would be good to keep in mind that just because something isn't abusive doesn't mean it didn't have a negative effect on someone. It's not so simple as "I feel shame so that person must have abused me."

This issue is incredibly complex, and made evermore so by adults (speaking in general) who fail to understand the complexities of childhood development and maturity. I'm not talking about sexuality here-----children are innately selfish and aren't necessarily going to understand boundaries. They don't understand the complexities of mine and yours, good touch versus bad touch, and so on. Labeling things like this as automatically abusive does nobody any good.

I hope you can see that the world isn't so black and white. Can you point out the invalidation happening here? Nobody is invalidating anyone. The OP has a right to her feelings and she has a right to be upset. Her feelings are quite valid! However, it can be a jump to say that "I wanna see!" sorts of exploration are abusive when a child is just curious about their own body and the bodies of others.

Automatically labeling such natural curiosity as abusive turns curious kids into "abusers" and "victims" when many aren't. Add the issue of consent to this discussion and well, you remove any possibility of normal childhood play because these activities all happen well under the age of consent. (See how it gets complicated fast?)

 

[Sideways]

@Socha - this really is a sensitive topic, not just because it involves children, but because I think that a lot of us can relate to feelings of shame and humiliation when we look back at some of the things that we did as a child.

I'm in complete agreement with you when you say that if the "game" has one child not wanting to participate and causes shame and/or humiliation at the time, I'd struggle to see that as anything other than abuse.

My reading of this scenario was that, at the time, the OP wasn't necessarily against the games (confused maybe, or maybe it just wasn't clear) and that the feeling of humiliation is something that was been felt retrospectively, as an adult looking back.

Here in Oz, little kids dancing round in their birthday suit after bathtime or under the hose on a hot day is waaay normal. I happily did that with my siblings, like millions of other kids around Australia. In retrospect, yeah, humiliating to think of. But not abuse.

So for those greyer areas, I think that labels and questions about whether it qualifies as abuse now that I'm embarrassed by it aren't helpful - my humiliation is valid, even if the application of the word "abuse" is unclear.

 

[Socha]

Picture this… A girl is about 4 or 5 and she has a friend who is the same age. They run around, play hide and seek and all the things kids do at that age. The boy says something like “I’ll show you mine, if you show me yours”. They are both excited and giggling, like kids should be. They both pull down their pants, look at each other, giggle some more, feel a little embarrassed maybe and go back to play hide and seek. If neither of them experienced any form of abuse before that, chances are more than good they won’t have bad feelings about it, perfectly normal for kids that age. It’s highly unlikely that someone who experienced something like this (probably everyone) would even think about it as abusive because well, it’s not. Both kids were the same age, size and were curious.

Now picture what the OP posted… Can’t you see the difference?
The invalidating part is telling this incident was just the same as the one described above: normal play & curiosity. But there was

* a difference in age/size/developmental stage
* no mutual interest/consent (I'm not talking about the legal age of consent consent here)
* feelings of shame and humiliation (for me it’s not the same as being embarrassed)

I’m not trying to put a label on it. That's up to the OP. I’m trying to put the label “play” and “normal” off of what the OP described. I’m not denying that kids play and are curious in the way I described above but for me there is just a huge difference between those two.

 

[Sideways]

@Socha - yup, you and me read the OP differently, hence the difference in conclusions. For what it's worth, I've posted my own rant about protection of children, and the rights of children always (always) being paramount. We can never be too careful given the damage that's at stake. Damage like so many members of this forum have experienced first hand.

 

[Powder]

@Socha

I think your posts are emotionally too harsh on people even though you have a great point to make; I don't like how you are treating people on the forum.