Communicating Without Dramatizing?

[DogwoodTree]

it's when the feelings are tied to thoughts that warp reality. "My future is hopeless: I am alone, but I will never find a partner - I am at least five years away from being ready to make that kind of connection again (if I'm lucky), I'm not attractive by anyone's standards, I had my chance and it's over for me." - my feelings of sadness over being alone are real. My inability to find hope on my own for myself is real. But those feelings are tied to thoughts that are basically deducing the future based on the past (cognitive distortion called 'fortune telling'), one based on assuming I know what others think when they see me ('mind reading'), and an absoluteism - one chance and blew it - that is false (all-or-nothing, or black-and-white thinking).

What about when the feelings are based on reality, but reality just sucks? Those cognitive distortions aren't so distorted then.

That's what I struggled with when I had a miscarriage a few years ago...sure, I might have another baby (and did, after another loss), but THAT baby is still dead, and is never coming back...And there are plenty of people in similar situations who did NOT have another baby. I might get to a place where emotionally I can heal from the loss, but that doesn't bring about the grandchildren we would've had from that child, and doesn't give that child the life he should've had.

There are things that happen to people that just plain suck, and always will. A friend of a friend who lost her 10 year old to cancer. A lady on the news whose son was hit in the head by a falling tree limb and he's extremely brain damaged. For myself...this is possibly an inherent inability to connect with people, exacerbated by long-term childhood abuse, followed by lifelong difficulties with my FOO. Sure, there are good things, too...really good things. My life doesn't suck on every imaginable level. But it's not always a distortion to say something is really awful. There are plenty of situations that don't have happy endings or resolutions, no matter how hopeful a person was along the way.

I guess, for me, the challenge has been to accept that suffering is just a part of life. Sometimes...it just sucks. Some things really are bad. That doesn't mean it necessarily justifies suicide, but telling myself it's not so bad when it really is, just feels like a distortion in and of itself. False hope. Sometimes...I find I just need to face into the yuckiness of it and find a place in that where I'm okay with it, even if it's something truly horrible. It's like...learning to mourn instead of talking myself out of my pain. Does that make any sense?

 

[Friday]

One of my tells is how concise I am able to be.

If I'm in a bad place? I cannot organize my thoughts in a clear and concise manner. I don't have a handle on things, and it's like I'm spraying and praying, trying to get everything out just so I can see it. Then it's like I'm chasing my thoughts around with a nail gun trying to pin it down in one place. You! Sit! Stay! Argh! Slippery SOB get back here!

Conversely, the actual effort of shrinking things down? Of streamlining what I'm trying to say? Helps. The physical act of editing and condensing adds clarity, not to simply what I'm saying, but also to what I'm thinking.

 

[DogwoodTree]

the actual effort of shrinking things down? Of streamlining what I'm trying to say? Helps. The physical act of editing and condensing adds clarity, not to simply what I'm saying, but also to what I'm thinking.

Yes, I do this a lot. For me, it starts with allowing myself to explore any avenue of feeling or thought available to me at the moment...fill the whiteboard with everything that comes up, no filter. Then look for patterns...underlying issues...foundational truths...new perspectives. And the more concise the idea at the end, the better. But it has to encompass everything I just put out there...and not only for myself...but exceptional situations in other people's lives. It's not really truth if it can't be applied to the extremes.

Trying to trick my thoughts or emotions into being something they're not doesn't work for me. I've never had formal CBT, but the vein of Christianity that I grew up in has something similar that is idealized and thrown around in all kinds of situations. I'd rather face some really messy truths than walk around believing sanitized lies about what's "real" just because it's supposed to make me "feel" better. (At the same time, I do have faith, and recognize that there's plenty we can't yet know. I'm just careful about what I have faith in.)

 

[Friday]

I think where a lot of people get confused with CBT is that it's not about believing lies. It's about the opposite: figure out what lies you believe in already, and first learn to see them as lies, and second figure out what's really true. For you, yourself.

Not just drinking the kool-aid and taking on someone else's truth as your own, or happy-talk-yourself to whatever... But discovering your own personal truths. From what you believe to be true, want to be true whether it is or isn't, don't want to be true whether it is or isn't, & what is true. It gives you a framework of honesty to work within. So that when you're lying to yourself? You don't fall for it. And when someone else lies to you? Ditto.

Actually, the quote I have up on my profile at the moment is on point:

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." - Robert Frost

 

[joeylittle]

I guess, for me, the challenge has been to accept that suffering is just a part of life. Sometimes...it just sucks. Some things really are bad. That doesn't mean it necessarily justifies suicide, but telling myself it's not so bad when it really is, just feels like a distortion in and of itself. False hope. Sometimes...I find I just need to face into the yuckiness of it and find a place in that where I'm okay with it, even if it's something truly horrible. It's like...learning to mourn instead of talking myself out of my pain. Does that make any sense?

Totally. And I agree 100%. There are things that just suck. That 'accepting the real suffering that happens to us' thing is the concept of radical acceptance - which absolutely means, "this is horrible, I am very very sad, and it just is"

I don't think anyone should tell themselves lies - false hopes or positive spins. I do think that it's something we need to check ourselves on, to make sure that we are not accidentally or habitually pulling something towards distorted thinking, that's all.

It's a spectrum. I guess it runs from:

1. things that are actually permanent/unchangeable and painful - those ultimately need grief, processing, acceptance.
2. things that seemed permanent but may not be now, ways we can get stuck in our fears or whatnot. Those, you need to separate out the parts you need to grieve for (as above), and the parts that you need to challenge/balance out your thinking.
3. things that are twisted out of whack - and it's usually with what appears to be good reason - but they need to be re-framed. Those are distortions. once you tease them out, get them clearer, you'll find whatever grain of truth is in there that then needs to go through the steps for #2.
   
4. things that you are drowning in - those need combinations of pulling apart, processing, re-framing, and really benefit from as much precise (neutral) language as you can muster, but also, help with that from someone with training (therapist, etc)

Dunno. I can tell we share a love of logic :tup:, it's really helping me to engage with all this - thanks for bouncing the thoughts with me.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Actually, the quote I have up on my profile at the moment is on point:

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." - Robert Frost

That's a really good quote.

I think where a lot of people get confused with CBT is that it's not about believing lies. It's about the opposite: figure out what lies you believe in already, and first learn to see them as lies, and second figure out what's really true. For you, yourself.

Not just drinking the kool-aid and taking on someone else's truth as your own, or happy-talk-yourself to whatever... But discovering your own personal truths.

I've not done CBT itself, but the stuff I've seen that's similar...I think this is what they're trying to accomplish, but that's not the way it plays out in real life, at least, not in my experience.

So...how do you know what's a lie? If I believe that most people don't like spending time with me and don't really want to be around me...not because I'm a mean person but just because I'm not a very open, friendly, warm person who helps them feel better about themselves...most counselors I've worked with would say that's a lie, and that the truth is that people do want to be around me...because their real goal is to get me to believe good things about myself (regardless of what the evidence says).

I go to church and small groups and other stuff, too, and it's very rare for anyone to seek me out for very long and relax around me and actually look forward to coming to the meeting because they wanted to see me (unless their goal is seeing me so they can try to fix me...ugh).

And I don't blame them anymore--I realize I'm not that good at the social scripts, and even though I've studied them and can emulate them when needed, it doesn't help me feel connected, so I only do it at certain times. (I started realizing that I can't really be loved for me if I don't show up as me, so I'm trying to avoid scripts and look for opportunities for genuine connection...the jury is still out on whether this is going to be successful or not).

So the truth...based on evidence after trying out many other possible explanations...is that I'm just not a "fun" person to be around. I'm simply not the kind of person you call up on Friday night because you want to hang out or go to the movies. I'm not the kind of person people call when they're upset. I'm not the kind of person who people want to build very personable relationships with. I want to be. I've tried to be that person. But the more I dig into who I really am rather than who I've tried to pretend to be...the more the truth comes out that this is not the kind of person I'm designed to be.

That doesn't mean I know yet what kind of person I am designed to be. That's still a mystery...a painful, gaping hole that is wreaking havoc on my relationships.

So...the truth. An outgoing, friendly person I am not, despite decades of trying to be. I'm not mean. I don't want to hurt people. It breaks my heart to see suffering. But I'm not the person to ask for a hug when you need a pick-me-up, even though I really truly wish I could be that person. I just don't have the parts for it.

But when people are ministering to you or counseling you or doing therapy with you...the tendency is to want to see only the good, and not admit that the bad can exist on any significant scale. Because that's not optimistic enough.

Facing reality for what it is...that I can swallow, even if it sucks. Bad things happened to me...true. It's greatly affected the kind of person I've become and the kind of person I can be...true. I've inherited some socially disconnected brain wiring (likely Asperger's)...true. The sooner I can accept all that and learn to work with it, the better. Trying to pretend like that stuff is no big deal and that with enough effort I can act as normal as anyone else (which is the approach I tried to take for almost 2 decades)...screw that. It doesn't work. So if CBT can handle the hard truths...that's great. But where I've seen that kind of thing used, in reality it only proliferates self deception.

So now I'm curious (really). Have you seen CBT used in ways that validate the hard, painful truths as well as the ones that help us feel better?

 

[DogwoodTree]

I don't think anyone should tell themselves lies - false hopes or positive spins. I do think that it's something we need to check ourselves on, to make sure that we are not accidentally or habitually pulling something towards distorted thinking, that's all.

Yes, I can agree with that. I can be as optimistic and hopeful as the next person when that kind of thing is warranted. But all this positive thinking stuff makes me nauseous.

But I see what you're saying. I think, for me, one disconnect is the gap between what I know I should be thinking and what I actually think. I can make myself say all the right stuff. I can make it look good. My family did that well--taught me to make sure I say the right thing so there's no room for criticism or blame.

I think some of the off-the-cliff stuff I've explored the past year or so has simply been needing to be messed up for a while...to let myself be so-not-perfect. And then to feel the need for real character growth as a result of that. And then to be able to actually engage in real growth based on who I really am, not on who I've pretended to be.

If admitting to and living with my belief that I'm a horrible, awful person for a little while helps me stay present to the growth process, rather than resorting to my usual M.O. of covering it up fast before anyone can see it...I'm hoping it's worth all that.

 

[Friday]

So now I'm curious (really). Have you seen CBT used in ways that validate the hard, painful truths as well as the ones that help us feel better?

Yep. Absolutely.

CBT isn't positive thinking, it isn't feel-better thinking, or blame-casting. It's about honest thinking. Once you have honest thinking? Then you can actually work with that. You can look at the facts, your own truths, what you want to be your truths, and the many many many different ways how that can change the situation, your perception, or both. As well as not. Because, quite frankly, there are limits.

<a whole lot of content I just deleted to edit... All cumbersome. My apologies.>

 

[DogwoodTree]

<a whole lot of content I just deleted to edit... All cumbersome. My apologies.>

Sadness...I like your posts, even when they're rambly. Good insights.

Once you have honest thinking? Then you can actually work with that. You can look at the facts, your own truths, what you want to be your truths, and the many many many different ways how that can change the situation, your perception, or both. As well as not.

Got any good sites or books that discuss this? It really would be nice to find people who value radical honesty.

Dan Allender's Cry of the Soul touches on this from a spiritual perspective as it discusses suffering. (Dan Allender is an amazing writer.) Reading his book...it was the first time I realized that having spiritual faith (believing in the goodness of God) doesn't preclude acknowledging the awful realities of life...that you don't have to believe "everything's fine, just be happy" in order to believe God...that facing the pain and truly mourning a loss is a lot healthier than stuffing the pain and telling everyone that you're fine and "it's all good."

 

[joeylittle]

<a whole lot of content I just deleted to edit... All cumbersome. My apologies.>

please, do not leave me alone in cumbersome rambling! :bookworm:

I think some of the off-the-cliff stuff I've explored the past year or so has simply been needing to be messed up for a while...to let myself be so-not-perfect. And then to feel the need for real character growth as a result of that. And then to be able to actually engage in real growth based on who I really am, not on who I've pretended to be.

This is really well put, as a process for figuring out your 'real', or authentic, self.

If admitting to and living with my belief that I'm a horrible, awful person for a little while

Yep - except just wanna point out, the way you phrased that allows 'I'm a horrible awful person' to sit out there, kind of unchallenged. Evrn just shifting the word believe, so you end up with "I believe I'm a horrible awful person" - you will not be in danger of mistaking opinion for fact.

I have that thought too. My actual phrasing of it is to say, "I have done things that I believe are objectively awful, horrible. I don't know (yet) how to separate the things from who I actually am - and so, I end up believing that I'm horrible too."

Believing I'm horrible leads to hating myself leads to feeling shitty, leads to shoving my feelings about it into a box and slamming the lid. Taking the lid off is messy, no matter what.

A really important CBT concept that people don't seem to latch onto - god, it was the biggest thing I really clicked with - is the 'percent belief' concept. So, at the beginning of a thought record, or really any reframing, you've got a hot thought - lets say it's "I'm horrible". You rate how much you believe that - lets say 95% - then you go through a bunch of personal analysis steps, at the end of which you have a reframe like, "Horrible things happened to me, and right now I believe that makes me horrible, too". And then you rate how much you believe that NEW thought. I'd say, 10%. So now, probably only 90% of me truly believes I am horrible. Well, that's still alot - but it's a little less than before. That little less isn't going to really change my mood right now. I don't expect it to. I'm just chipping away at the stone, bit by bit by bit.

 

[scout86]

This is a really good topic and I'm glad you brought it up. I'm just starting to see that my T has been using CBT all along, he just never called it by name. (He seems to prefer thinking of it as "being accurate".)

If I believe that most people don't like spending time with me and don't really want to be around me...not because I'm a mean person but just because I'm not a very open, friendly, warm person who helps them feel better about themselves...most counselors I've worked with would say that's a lie,

How about if, instead of "most people" we went with "some people"? And, maybe, we could consider that there are LOTS of ways to make other people feel good. Many of them actually don't involve being open. (A lot of people want to be listened to and they appreciate people who listen more than they talk.)
And, you probably wouldn't really WANT just anybody and everybody being attracted to you, would you? Maybe you would...

But when people are ministering to you or counseling you or doing therapy with you...the tendency is to want to see only the good, and not admit that the bad can exist on any significant scale.

You may have been dealing with the wrong people, depending on what you mean by "bad". Because it you didn't have any problems you wouldn't need the help in the first place, right? My therapist spends a lot of time helping me find things that are "problems" and then coming up with solutions.

I'm not sure what branch of Christianity your referring to. When I lived in OK, I went to a really cool but somewhat weird church. They were what I called "the dancin' in the aisles kind of people". I'm not. Very MUCH not! And yet, I felt welcome there. And as comfortable as I ever do around people. I said something about that to someone one day. She laughed. She said, "Oh we HAVE a lot of dancers around here, we really didn't need any more. But I figure we must need more of what ever it is you are and that's why God sent you." Like I said, weird place. But WAY cool. LOL And there actually came a day or 2 when I had something to offer they needed. I think that's the way it works. There is exactly ONE of you in this world. You have a role to play and you play it by being the very best version of you that you can. Can you imagine a world of only extroverts? I'm not sure that would work.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I have that thought too. My actual phrasing of it is to say, "I have done things that I believe are objectively awful, horrible. I don't know (yet) how to separate the things from who I actually am - and so, I end up believing that I'm horrible too."

Believing I'm horrible leads to hating myself leads to feeling shitty, leads to shoving my feelings about it into a box and slamming the lid. Taking the lid off is messy, no matter what.

Not knowing how to separate the things I've done...or that have been done to me...from who I am...that's a huge part of it, right? Hm. The things I do...come from who I am inside. The things done to me...affected who I became. Where's the separation?

I think my approach has ended up being more...look the ugliness straight on as much as I can...until the emotional charge around that fact about myself dissipates. Then I can deal with the thing in a more neutral, clear-headed way. It's still there for the time being, but it doesn't ignite the storms inside that it used to (other things have taken that baton, lol, but maybe I'm starting to run out of things to beat myself up about).

Well, that's still alot - but it's a little less than before. That little less isn't going to really change my mood right now. I don't expect it to. I'm just chipping away at the stone, bit by bit by bit.

Putting numbers to it sounds like a good approach. More quantifiable that way. I think what I've been doing is more about "proving myself wrong."

So I start with a statement like, that I'm an awful person...that nothing about me justifies my existence. But for the sake of honesty, I have to admit for example...my kids wouldn't exist if I didn't exist, and that's worth an awful lot right there. Then I argue with myself. Well they exist now...but they'd be better off with someone else raising them. But...I do contribute this and this and that...and even if I don't do it perfectly...there's a stability for them in having it come from their biological mother rather than a substitute after a great deal of turmoil. And on it goes.

I end up identifying the counterpoints to my argument about how worthless I am. And without a definitive answer, the optimist in me must move toward making the best of the way things are, which means growing in the right direction even if I'll only make it a few baby steps in the time that it seems like everyone else climbs a mountain. There are other mountains I'm climbing that they won't conquer, so I guess it all works out somehow.

How about if, instead of "most people" we went with "some people"? And, maybe, we could consider that there are LOTS of ways to make other people feel good.

Yeah but see, this is where it starts feeling like self deception to me. If it were only "some people", then it seems like I would be able to identify some exceptions to the first part...that there would be some people who do seek me out and want to spend time with me.

And then this gets into a "filter" my T pointed out the other day...I believe that anyone who approaches me relationally is just wanting something from me, not simply wanting to be with me. And I think that comes from the fact that this is how I view other people, too. Being with people is so much "work" for me, to figure out what they want and what they expect and how to act, that I often only seek people out when I want something from them or when I feel like they're wanting something from me. It's task orientation. I'm finding I don't really know anything else in the context of relationship.

Like, a couple of weeks ago at equine therapy...the horses had moved to a different part of the pasture away from us, and the equine T suggested we go check on them, just to "make sure they're happy." I couldn't process that at all--it didn't make sense. If they weren't happy, they'd move to a different spot or do something else about it. Obviously they're happy enough, and why would our getting close to them help things? They didn't really seem to care if we were close or far, and I had already tried to interact with them in some "meaningful" way and failed because I couldn't think of anything meaningful to do, so why bother them?

And that gets to the second sentence in your quote...about making people feel good. I grew up in a deeply enmeshed, codependent family. I've been held responsible for the emotions of people around me for as long as I can remember. I'm tired of trying to make people feel good. Even currently...this year...my mom has threatened to fire me from my job with the family business because I didn't make her feel good enough...I wasn't sufficiently managing her emotions for her.

And, you probably wouldn't really WANT just anybody and everybody being attracted to you, would you? Maybe you would...

You're absolutely right, though it took me a very long time to figure that out. I don't want just anyone being attracted to me. I thought I was supposed to want anyone and everyone to want to be with me...you know, so I could fix their problems for them (family belief system and all)...but I'm finding that's just really not what I actually want.

It's tough for me to get it all straight in my head. There are family members who seek me out (usually way more than I want to be pursued by them), and of course there's my DH and kids. But that filter really is firmly in place. I feel like if I'm not giving them something they really need from me, then I have no right to be in the relationship. I don't know what it means to pursue contact simply for the sake of connection. Connection isn't there for me...it's just the task being accomplished.

You may have been dealing with the wrong people, depending on what you mean by "bad".

Yeah, I'm figuring that out, too. I've been deeply steeped in my family's belief system and dysfunctional patterns, thinking we had "figured it all out" and that it was our duty to reach out to people and help fix them. But that means you have to maintain a nearly spotless facade, which my family does very well.

To admit fault in anything puts a bullseye on your back, and to let yourself continue to be less than perfect once you've identified your problem is like begging to be targeted with all the negative energy in the family, like a lightning rod. I know that sounds exaggerated, but it's crazy the things I've been blamed for the past couple of years...things that sometimes I wasn't even present...it was just the fact that my mom could imagine that I would have handled a situation poorly that she overreacted to what she thought I would have said had I been there.

Which reminds me...(talking to myself, lol): I need to stop blaming her for my own inner critic. What's in my head is not her fault.