Communication chasm: treated v untreated interpersonal dynamics

[Kintsugi]

Okay, Forumland, I am really struggling here. Word to the mods: I feel really strongly that this is a therapy thread, not a relationships thread, although I don't get to the crux of it until the end. Move if necessary (of course).

My best friend has undergone perpetual crises since basically October of last year. This is a thread I started in January outlining the problems I had staying emotionally present throughout the many personal upheavals she'd been through up to that point.

It has only gotten much worse. And worse. And worse. It's like watching waves break on a coastline. Shit just keeps coming.

Anyway, we found out a few months ago that the reason she had been dropping enormous amounts of weight in a short time is because she has adult-onset type 1 diabetes. And she's insulin-resistant. That f*cking sucks. There is nothing else to say except that f*cking blows and is awful and anyone's heart would break for her.

BUT... there are things that can be done. Steps to be taken. Here's the short list of things that Must Happen for Wellness:

1) Go to the f*cking hospital in a nearby city where you will...
2) See a motherf*cking endocrinologist
3) Stop consuming poison in the form of alcohol, soda, energy drinks, red meat, processed food, candy, fatty foods, simple carbs
4) Stop working 12-hour days
5) Stop mowing your lawn in 100°f weather

I mean. It's. It's a simple f*cking list. It's not rocket science. It's f*cking simple.

My mother happens to be an RN with an MS and specializes in diabetes--has certificates and whatnot, has seen people like this every day for over ten years. My mother talked to my BFF. My mother talked extensively to me as well. She made several aggressive recommendations. My mother is legitimately afraid, given my BFF's lab work, that my BFF will die and I will kill myself. That is not an exaggeration; that is factually what my mother is worried about. BFF is going to f*cking die from this if it goes untreated, and I will kill myself.

I'm not suicidal, FYI.

But my friend sure seems to be.

And she was, really, at the beginning of this year (see above link for more). So I can see how she would return to that status. And I can see how it would be super easy to be suicidals if you're already well on your way to dying.

I actually totally get this. Because I understand suicidal.

But my BFF has a husband and 7-year-old child. I decided that if she was ready to give up and die, I was going to do everything in my power to have the can-do attitude she lacks and help her survive this shit.

Her doctor has her scheduled to see an endo in September. And this was scheduled... early f*cking July? Maybe? What the f*ck, Doctor Lady.

I got her an available endo that she could have seen over a week ago. But she ignored me.

Her doctor put her on a $200 med she wound up being resistant to.

My mother strongly recommended a far cheaper medication that usually works wonders on the insulin-resistant population. But she ignored me.

Okay, Simon, I told myself. It's her body. You can't dictate what she does with it. All you can do is try to be there for her, give her good advice, and hope for the best.

And I did. I made my f*cking peace with that decision. I can't control her. I can only control me.

HOWEVER... every time she knows I'm not at work and she's not at work she is directly up my ass. Which is generally fine. But every time I see her, all I hear about is how sick she is, how much her husband sucks, and how broke they are. It's like the Never Ending Story. Always the same shit. Always.

Any advice I give is promptly shot down, dismissed, or flat-out ignored. Every time.

Okay, SO... the heart of my thread. Yes, this is about therapy and treatment. Promise.

Yesterday, BFF asked what I was doing. Adulting. I am adulting. Can I come over? Sorry, I really need to get some shit done. Not even later? Well, if I get all my shit done I'll tell you. I feel like you're avoiding me; what did I do? I am NOT avoiding you, but if you feel that way, it might be because it's hard to see you literally dying in front of me when you won't listen to anybody's advice, so maybe I'm subconsciously protecting myself by mediating the time I spend with you.

And then shit hit the fan.

I asserted my personal limitations, and she became insanely emotionally reactive, started criticizing my life in totally nonsensical ways, and said I'd been a shitty friend. That last item? Is demonstrably f*cking false, because I have seriously been holding her hand emotionally for ten f*cking months, bending over backwards to help her and listen and be there etc. no matter what's happening in my own f*cking life.

Well, I hurt her feelings. Sigh. Uh, she hurt mine too. But she was pretty explosive about it... I'm sure she cried... this was all over text. Now... I'm the demon as far as she and her husband and another mutual friend are concerned. Because I was too brutal? Heavy-handed? Blunt? Straightforward? About asserting my own personal boundaries?

I was (and still am) baffled by this unanimous response. She launched all manner of personal attacks on me in reaction to my asserting my own limitations. I didn't attack her. I was extremely explicit that I respected that it was her body and her decision if she wanted to commit passive suicide. All I was saying was that I couldn't engage with her as often as she might want me to because it is extremely hard on me. I just can't do it.

After I considered it for awhile, I came to the potential conclusion that what I am experiencing socially all comes down to therapy and treatment. Culminatively, I've been in therapy for around 9 years. I'm 26. BFF went to therapy this year and this year alone for maybe 6-8 sessions. Her husband has been in therapy maybe for around the same number of sessions spread over years. Other friend, to my knowledge, has never had a therapist of any kind.

Is this chasm of communication just a product of the fact that I'm in treatment? Is that why hurt feelings trumps logic for these people? Why tears make her right and a more logic-driven manner of speaking makes me the bad guy?

Anyone?

 

[Justmehere]

Is this chasm of communication just a product of the fact that I'm in treatment?

Maybe. Probably. You probably do have more communication skills, many more coping tools, you have dealt with your stuff longer and deeper, and probably have a greater tolerance to handle someone else setting boundaries and managing distress and etc.

It may also not be that.

What it really comes down to is that the stress and pain in her life is greater than her ability to deal with it effectively.

I've dealt with something rather similar. My BFF has very treatable minor cancer, 95 percent who get treatment live, and she refused it all, is dropping weight, losing ability to function, refusing to see a doctor and then goes on and one about how sick she is feeling, WHILE rejecting all care options.

I was there for her, dropping everything all the time to help her get through, and then I needed to deal with me and my stuff and take a little space. The second I expressed that watching her commit passive suicide was really hard for me, and the second I started setting boundaries to not always rush to make the pain of the consequences to her health of her choices... everything fell apart. In the almost 14 years I have known her, I have never seen her totally emotionally break down and lose all connection to logic until then. I was ALL the bad guy and she was totally right. Because she was hurting and emotional and I was just so horrible. She was adamant I was refusing to see her tears and the pain she was in and that's why she had to refuse treatment because what?

My friend has been in mental health treatment far longer than even me. She's done work on her stuff. The same pattern is still happening with her. She is one of the most logical intellectual people I know, but when the fear of and pain of cancer and treatment kicked in, denial kicked in too, executive functioning shut down, and logic didn't make any impact, only emotions.

The stress and pain and fear of the illness simply was greater than her capacity to cope well.

Someone can get help and work in their stuff, do lots of therapy, and sometimes the sh*t still hits the fan and someone STILL can't deal, and still goes into denial, and STILL makes the choice to commit passive suicide.

If your friend had done more work to learn more and cope better with life, this might be going very differently.

I'd look at her pushing back as a sign that by stepping back, she's now having to look at her stuff a little, because you are not rushing to help make it a little easier for her, which is hella uncomfortable, and probably really scary for her. But in a way, that's kind of good. The lashing back out of you part is terrible and miserable, but behind it is someone who can't keep using a friend to distract from the reality that her choices to avoid care mean consequences to her health that really scare and upset other people.

 

[Friday]

Another maybe/probably, here.

You're used to hearing hard truths, that you don't like, that scare you & make you angry, that hurt... And coming out the other side.

No bullshit breakdowns in therapy, & here, & possibly other places (not a lot of jobs do this, but healthcare, first responders, & military are up to their eyeballs in make a mistake and people die; you WILL make mistakes, people WILL die, so being told you're f*cking up is an opportunity to sort your shit as quickly as possible, aka it's f*cking baseline. You don't pussyfoot around shit that kills people. You just don't.).

Sounds like she isn't used to hearing hard truths, much less dealing with them. That she's taking them personally. That it hurts her feelings is more important than the content. Ditto those around her that "She's sick, she needs help" isn't as important as "you making" her sad about that.

These aren't lessons that are only found in therapy, but outside of family dynamics & work dynamics... That's where most people would learn them.

 

[Kintsugi]

I've dealt with something rather similar.

(((((JMH))))) Your thread is actually what made me make the decision to let her make her own decisions. I hadn't read it since you first posted it, but when you were responding here, I was rereading it, and I forgot a lot of things that were said there. It's been massively helpful and makes me feel a lot less alone.

I really, really, REALLY hope that you're right about this making her take a closer look at herself. It's been destroying me to watch this go down. I'm totally sick of hearing about how she had to haul 50lbs of trash to the dump by herself because her husband forgot and her father was feeling bad... she just wants someone (me. Simon. She wants me) to say, "Poor BFF. I'm so sorry everyone sucks."

But I can't do that. I say, F*ck that noise! Leave it! Don't do that shit!

And she sighs, l have to.

Uhhh... no, you don't have to.

I've been incubating this theory tonight that what she's doing is actually like parasuicidal gestures (? Is that what that's called?) or like severe self-harm behaviors: she's been saddled with being a caretaker for sooo many people over the past year that she just wants it to be her turn. She wants to be babied and coddled and pitied. And I totally f*cking get that feeling. I get it. But she can't force me to watch.

But setting the tiniest boundary--"No you cannot come over for a cigarette [which for her is code for 45min-3 hours of talking plus I need to go to the store plus she'll tell me how bad her laundry or dishes or whatever are because she knows I'll offer to "help"/do it for her]" turned into this insane firefight. I'm bamboozled. And so f*cking hurt by the shit she said.

I told my boyfriend last night, "She called me a shitty friend. I wanna know where all her really good friends have been. Hm? Where are these people? That's right. It's always me."

But of course it isn't really about me being a shitty friend. It's about that kind of desperate flailing people adopt when they're scared shitless that someone is rejecting/abandoning them. But how the f*ck do you explain that to someone who is so emotionally reactive?

I extended a serious olive branch to her today. I never do that. When I feel that I was 100% in the right and someone else did something that was absolutely socially wrong (personal attack, betrayal), I just cut them off until they're prepared to give an apology. But I reeeally tried. I told her she was the greatest friend I'd ever had and my most critical attachment ever (totally true things). I told her I felt I deserved an apology but that she didn't have to agree; I just wanted to talk it out when she had time.

She told me that she thinks she had a minor heart attack last night, implied that it was my fault (I guess her body eating her muscles has nothing to do with it), and said that she couldn't talk to me because she was too hurt that I said she was emotionally draining. It's like... where's the CBT workbook sheet on this shit? How do you get through to someone who is just going to keep being reactive? When also you're scared tomorrow will be their last day alive?

:banghead:

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I am in many crises at this time, and I was over sensitive and overreactive with a very dear friend and actually felt bad, because I had gone below the belt and hurt her feelings very badly. I apologized sincerely and went on to tell her where I am at right now, very fragile. It is okay now and I will watch myself so that never happens again.

Your friend is not being logical and perhaps may have been using you to enable her and when you laid down a boundary which you had every understandable right to do, she went ballistic and proceeded to drag her other enablers in to it.

If she was a friend, she would think about what you said to her and she would later on come back and sheepishly apologize to you I think. When the people around us are used to us not setting boundaries or drawing personal lines in the sand, naturally they get upset until we sort it our by talking rationally and reasonably about. But they do not use drama and crazy making tactics and continually turn on you ripping you to shreds. You are a very great friend to her but I do not think at this time she is a very good person for you to be around. You changed and expressed a need and a want and you not only did that but you said no for now, perhaps later and it was more than she could handle. I hope that this makes sense. I could be way off base here and if so please disregard everything I said.

I wish you to keep exploring this one and learn all you can about the dynamics of this situation with your bff. You guys share a history together and who knows maybe it triggered some of her undealt with issues. She is an adult making choices and you just have gone as far as you can reasonably go with her as she is right now. You are healthier than her too.

Alcohol turns people into little tin gods in the end where they need to control all around them. If you went back to the way you were before she would probably agree to be friends again but I doubt seriously that she would apologize. I know I do not know her but from what you have described, she sounds mentally sick and unhealthy. You probably already know all of what I am saying so I apologize if that is the case as well. I am taking a risk in sharing with you what I think about this girl. Is she also involved with any drugs?

I think the best thing you can do is to stand strong in your beliefs and do much self care for you. I know that you are fed up with watching her slowly die and do not want to be around her to watch her die needlessly. You must love her very, very much which makes you a deeply caring person in my eyes. This is not your fault at all. She is making the choices to do these things to you. I am very sorry that this has happened to you. I wish you the best, but you are not alone in telling her the truth and she refused to see or hear you because it was too reality based and she seems hellbent on her getting her own way at your expense.:hug:

 

[Sideways]

After my second serious suicide attempt, my folks came to visit me in hospital and told me, straight up, "This is too hard for us. So, don't call us, we'll call you." and they removed themselves from my life.

And f*ck that was painful. I had nightmares about it for weeks, and was pretty bitter and twisted about them abandoning me for a long time.

They were, in fact, abandoning me. Fast forward a few years, and I stopped trying to top myself and eventually, with a lot of work on both sides, have patched it up with my folks.

While that experience will always be a pretty painful memory, it's not like I don't understand why they had to do it. They loved me, but couldn't deal with watching me trying to kill myself. Too painful. My illness costing me my life is one thing. But my illness taking out the people around me as well?

And that's the deal when you're in the supporter role - you fit your own oxygen mask first. You have to look after your needs first.

Based on what you've written, if this continues, her illness may end up costing you your life. That's the point we now seem to be at. So, if that's where we are? What do you need to survive this?

Friendships, as strong as they are, sometimes run their course. Sometimes they come to an end. Your friend has chosen to go on a path that you can't follow. Because if you do, it could cost you your life. That's what you've described.

Is it hella painful to walk away? Absolutely. Is there grief, regret, what else could I have done? Sure. And that's gonna take time to work through.

But you can't follow her on the path she's on. You've done what you can, and then some, to try and throw her a lifeline. But if it has honestly come to the point where you might suicide if/when she passes away? And that's a very real possibility... You need to step away from this, and take care of your own safety.

I don't like saying it. It's gonna hurt you, and it's gonna hurt her. Sometimes life is all shitty options, and it's a case of choosing the option where we survive.

 

[EveHarrington]

Just going to give you a :hug: as my reaction would be quite heavy handed but I think that's probably not the best in this case.

 

[scout86]

My illness costing me my life is one thing. But my illness taking out the people around me as well?

And the thing is, if they'd stuck around to watch, maybe you'd have been dead anyway. Because whether or not they were there as witnesses wasn't part of the solution, as things stood, something else was.

@Friday , you put some things into words back there that I realize I've always, maybe pretty close to literally always, been aware of, but hadn't really seen. Thanks! (You do that a lot you know.)

@Simply Simon , I don't have an answer. The situation is familiar, in an assortment of ways, and on different levels. For me, it's one of those deals where I KNOW there's a "right thing to do" out there somewhere, but I can't find it. But, I'm pretty sure my thought about a "right" thing isn't just me, looking for a way to beat myself up for something.

My T has a way, when I drift off towards feeling sorry for myself, (or beating myself up beyond all reason) of turning things on their head, so I see what I'm doing, without being mean about it. Actually, usually it makes me laugh when I see where he's going. But, that would be why HE is good at what he does, and I do something completely different. What I do know is that a direct, frontal assault, based on logic, isn't the way in. What my T does, generally, is ask questions. Usually simple, blunt questions that most people would be too polite to ask. Which I'm generally required to pause and consider before I fire off an answer, due to the nature of the question. I don't know that that's much help. I DO know that what she's doing is a "thing" some people really get in to doing. Good luck. To both of you!

 

[Kintsugi]

She is making the choices to do these things to you

I don't think she realized yet that she's having this effect on me. I think she's so used to me just being there to pat her on the back that she just doesn't even notice that I'm struggling so badly to try and be the best influence possible on her. And she's not into illicit substances at the moment, really, but she takes a shitload of valium, and I think that helps her just numb out and not give a shit about how bad things really are.

Here's the f*cked up part: she always tells me about how her life insurance policy would somehow be more valuable than her life. And she's just plain wrong, of course. I honestly can't tell if she's so depressed that she really feels this way or if she's looking for me to tell her how valuable she is. I'm not gonna lie. She has been through the damn wringer pretty much ever since she found out she was pregnant with her son, who turns seven next week. I know it's been an intense life for her. She also has pretty f*cked up childhood trauma, so it's not like her struggle only started seven years ago. It's been a hard life.

Sometimes life is all shitty options, and it's a case of choosing the option where we survive.

Thank you for saying this. It makes me feel like less of an asshole. Am I acting in a symptomatic or a treated fashion when I feel I need to cut myself away from the intensity? I'm not really sure. Is this me being dissociative and numbing and feeling it's easier to distance myself from something than get even closer? Or is this my reaction to eating way too much shit for too long and needing to choose boundaries I can live with? Your words, above, make me think it might really be the latter.

What I do know is that a direct, frontal assault, based on logic, isn't the way in. What my T does, generally, is ask questions. Usually simple, blunt questions that most people would be too polite to ask. Which I'm generally required to pause and consider before I fire off an answer, due to the nature of the question. I don't know that that's much help.

Oh, Scout. You and your Super T. I love it.

This ^ isn't just helpful. It's enormously helpful. I wish I could go back in time, when I had the stamina to do that instead of laying all of my cards out on the table. It probably would have been more effective. I don't know; I might get another shot soon. It's hard telling when she'll break down and look at herself at this point. I would have said by Friday, and I can usually predict when she will make amends extremely accurately, but this time I just don't know.

I wish I could make Everybody Ever go to therapy for a loooong time. Seriously. Everyone.

 

[Sideways]

Your words, above, make me think it might really be the latter.

And your mum's, because she's obviously pretty concerned about you as well. It's okay to have a limit on what you can cope with. It doesn't mean you're 'symptomatic', it just means you're human.

It's often easier to flip the argument: if you found out that one of your friends was bordering on suicide in order to be a good, supportive friend to you, what would your advice to them be?

 

[Suzetig]

How do you get through to someone who is just going to keep being reactive? When also you're scared tomorrow will be their last day alive?

I think the honest answer is that you can't. All you can do is set a boundaries around what you're able and prepared to give of yourself.

Think of her like a drowning person, she's flailing around, hitting out at anyone who tries to save her - because she's scared and panicked. But, in her flailing and hitting she'll take you down with her and as precious as she may be to you, you need to keep yourself intact first of all or you'll be no use to her anyway.

Self care isn't a luxury in these situations, it's an absolute necessity. If that means you need space and distance, so be it. Her screaming and accusations are about her and her need, nothing whatsoever to do with the kind of friend you are to her or the relationship you have.

You've done such a lot of work on yourself and have great capacity for reflection - she isn't there and may never get there but she could unravel the work you've done, which would be a great shame.

 

[Deleted member 541]

I call these people emotional vampires. My ex friend of 35 yrs was one. Now that we are no longer friends, I see this, and I'm grateful that we are no longer friends. My life is no longer filled with her shit.

Maybe instead of trying to help her all the time, you should sit down and ask yourself what is it about her that I want to be friends with. Is the friendship really worth the pain and worry that I go through???

Your focus seems to be on helping her, and I'm not sure why when it's apparent that she doesn't seem concerned about her own health! Isn't that like beating your head against the wall while she looks on?????