Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: The Choice To Remain Ill Or Not?

[zeldazonk]

Zelda, I think you have interpreted an outcome, and accepted that outcome. Simple as that. There is no power here, there is no militaristic view, there is choice. I chose to get better... that choice is actually yours, contrary to what you outline towards more having a little pity party that you are trying so hard, yet attempting to also degrade / attack me in the process.

Anthony, the way I see it is I made a simple criticism and you, in defensiveness, tried to analyse my post and me which is really poor as far as boundaries go. I find this a very strange way to handle things. I don't know when I degraded or attacked you...I think you've assumed an awful lot about me when you don't know me from a bar of soap. You seem very hostile and defensive and I don't think you really read my post with any real interest.

Zelda... your choice, do as you wish. When you want to get better, feel free to come see me and cut all the sympthetic nonsense please, because from your own admission, it has gotten you as far as you are, and stuck, using your words.

As for the sympathetic nonsense, we're not all like you Anthony. My point is that when people are in that stuck place, it actually doesn't help to talk tough and say "it's up to you, pull up your socks". I'm into kindness I'm a Buddhist. I have a friend who is drinking himself to death and it's awful to see, but he still deserves my respect and kindness - I'm not enabling and I wouldn't allow this to impact my life negatively of course.
You don't speak respectfully to me.

Healing anything is about taking power, taking control of, wait for it.... your life.

That is challenging, though, I hope, not impossible, when I have learned powerlessness from babyhood.
Not shifting it. Owning it.

It actually has nothing to do with me or another.... it is in fact all about you, so please stop trying to shift it elsewhere and take responsibility for your actions, and use that responsibility to actually achieve, instead of just giving up.

This I know.


Namaste.

 

[zeldazonk]

Look, There's more than one way to skin a cat right? Let's agree to (strongly) disagree.

Best, Zel.

 

[anthony]

Nobody was disagreeing or agreeing Zelda... you where the one who started this. Can you say, Passive Aggressive? That is exactly how I am reading your above comments to be truthful... You begun by insulting me indirectly, then taking zero ownership for your behaviour. Why may I ask?

As for skinning a cat, unsure; never skun one before! :laugh: Yes, there are a myriad of ways to recover and I have never denied that, so again, still unsure why you felt compelled with your original comments insighting this?

Every therapist / mental health physician who has had a hand in teaching me, have all said the same thing about complex trauma sufferers, you will find those willing to put in the hard work, after being nudged out of denial, then you will find those who won't, but they will scream otherwise. The later you cannot help, only the former. So prove me wrong Zelda, please... prove every mental health physician who has helped me, along with even my current education through counselling right now, all saying the same thing, confirming this attitude. Prove me wrong that you are not in the later group as I suspect from reading your statements here... but in the former mentioned, being you just need a good nudge past denial and into taking self control.

You have my attention now... which you wanted, so I dare you to prove me wrong!

 

[zeldazonk]

you will find those willing to put in the hard work, after being nudged out of denial, then you will find those who won't, but they will scream otherwise. The later you cannot help, only the former.

This is the crux of why I posted in the first place. (you then made it personal by trying to analyse that post & me)
I've mentioned this before - leave my motivation out of it for a minute - why do you feel the need to refer to the latter group with disdain / contempt? I assume it's because you think they are lazy and/or stupid. Please correct me - I'm serious. I may be misinterpreting your tone. It can get lost in posts sometimes I think.
This is what I have an issue with. Maybe it's not that they're stupid or lazy. Maybe there are other reasons that you don't understand.

That's it. That's all I'm saying
All due respect, Anthony, I'm not here to prove anything to you.
Best to you, Zel.

P.S. I'm sure I could use some nudging.
How do I know if I should change therapists or if it's just me?

And another thing:laugh:

you will find those willing to put in the hard work, after being nudged out of denial, then you will find those who won't, but they will scream otherwise. The later you cannot help, only the former.

​

When I've seen Bessel Van Der Kolk and Babette Rothschild speak about the 'latter group', they certainly speak with no less respect, empathy or interest than they do about the 'former group'. (Certainly there's a huge grey area in betweem the two?)
They obviously don't see these people as lazy or recalcitrant or stupid. They have, I think, theories as to why there are people who don't respond so easily to treatment ...another story.

Best, Zel.

It is easier for some people to stay stuck or ill than go through the hard work of getting better.

Their experience of life is obviously different from yours, though. You can't compare others to yourself as if they are the same as you and have just decided they can't be arsed doing the work. I guess it's a lot to do with fear. I guess it's all to do with fear.

Why should I take on someone ringing me up suicidal asking for help but takes NONE of it on board :confused: - game over sorry, otherwise I end up a mess too.:eek:

I think that's absolutely the right thing for you to do. That would drive me crazy. I still stand by what I said:
All things being equal no-one would choose to remain ill.

All the best, Nicolette.
Zel.

 

[Nicolette]

Their experience of life is obviously different from yours, though.

Incorrect as she is my sister, we grew up with the same abuse - the difference is how we then chose to deal with it as adults. This then gets back to what Anthony was saying in that I wanted to put in the hard work - my sister didn't. So all things being equal (in that we suffered the same abuse throughout our childhoods) we could have both been as ill as each other but I chose not to. My sister may not have chosen to remain ill but she has definitely chosen not to get better than how she is.

 

[zeldazonk]

So all things being equal (in that we suffered the same abuse throughout our childhoods) we could have both been as ill as each other but I chose not to. My sister may not have chosen to remain ill but she has definitely chosen not to get better than how she is.

Hi Nicolette,
It's an interesting comparison but, technically growing up in the same house doesn't constitute 'equal'. You are completely ignoring genes and birth experiences.
The closest thing to 'equal' would be identical twins growing up in the same house, but even then, there are different experiences to take into consideration.
So, it's kind of impossible to get that 'equal' with human beings.

I guess I'm a big believer in nature. When I used to look after babies and then had my own, I was blown away by how they were a complete little being already. Not the blank slate I thought they'd be.

Don't get me wrong Nicolette, you know your situation and your sister and I'm sure there's truth in what you say.
Best, Zel

 

[Nicolette]

Are you going to argue every point Zelda because there is nothing I have said which you have not disputed yet I know my truth and I know my situation? I really don't care about the technicalities but instead the facts as they stand.

Equal may not be perfectly or exactly the same - but it was fair game for the abuse and I tell you what, we were too busy trying to survive let alone worrying about keeping score.

Irrespective of the slate - there is proof in the actions I have taken versus the ones my sister has not. Just the same as you see the difference between people on this forum who seek help and the ones who talk and do nothing.

Anyway, we are getting way off topic other than my sister has Complex PTSD, tried to seek treatment, but gave in each time and now she is permanently damaged beyond a point from which I could ever see her recover. Sadly I expect to hear of her suicide one day. My slate has the same genetics and the same experiences to a point so a lot of the script written at the start is the same. I sought out therapy, read every book I could, chewed peoples' ears off, sought professional help. IMHO the differences in attitude had some affect on the differences between us.

Note......... IN MY HONEST OPINION.......and I lived it all.

I still believe my sister had and has a choice to heal but never takes more than one step. So in my situation my opinion is true. I'm not talking on behalf of anyone else and my life experiences supports what others have said so IMO I agreed.

 

[Brontie]

Sorry. But I have to agree that some people do choose to stay ill.
They often self-medicate with alcohol and or drugs and are mostly too afraid to face the reality of their situation.

 

[zeldazonk]

IMHO the differences in attitude had some affect on the differences between us.

Of course it did. I'm sorry if I upset you, I just feel I'm making a simple point and it's being missed. I'll leave it at that.
Best, Zel.

 

[Deleted member 487]

Sorry. But I have to agree that some people do choose to stay ill.
They often self-medicate with alcohol and or drugs and are mostly too afraid to face the reality of their situation.

Counselors have said that about me, failing to recognize that it's not my choice. Instead finding a counselor that is competent and able to work with me and my CPTSD really is hard. And trying to find if I can afford them or not. And then trying to see IF they are willing to see me or not. It is a challenge that is only misunderstood by those that are not willing to look at it from another perspective.

 

[anthony]

Counselors have said that about me, failing to recognize that it's not my choice

There is always a requisite amount of choice involved CJ, even with the complexities of trauma itself. Complex trauma takes longer to heal, and to counsel, however; the sufferer must really be willing to step up at some point to test the waters... if they want to change. This is the choice component. Its one thing to go for help, but its another to accept that help and listen.

Some people take months, years or decades before getting out of denial and making that decisions of, enough is enough, I am now going to take more control of me, trust what these people are saying, and see what happens. Trauma is trauma... it is legitimate, though never has trauma been acceptable as an excuse when viewed with choice.

Complex trauma does not remove choice. It is a falicy, and its not exclusive to complex trauma like some try and apply so, or think, that is not accurate. There are some people in the same situation from a separation, childs illness, an illness that occurred to them, a minor motor vehicle accident, all sorts of traumatic events. They say the same things... I don't have a choice, I want too, but I can't. There is no exclusivity to the reactions of trauma and healing.

I will agree that therapists are needed specifically for trauma counselling, however; if you have several counsellors telling you the same things, then its not them, and it is you. All counsellors are trained in basic trauma counselling... so every single one can recognise its fundamentals. Their depth of knowledge beyond basics differs, but that applies to how they implement things, not identifying clients who are difficult / stuck, at any given time.

The end result though, you must make a choice at some point to trust someone, to listen to them, and actually give it your 110% effort to test something new. I went through it for a couple of years until I made that choice for myself, as every single other person has had to do in relation to trauma. This choice, is not exclusive, every single person with trauma has to make it at some point, because every single person will have denial at some point about their actions and level of illness.

 

[zeldazonk]

This is the choice component. Its one thing to go for help, but its another to accept that help and listen.

I'm glad you said that. Oh to be in that place to accept and listen (as long as it's good therapy)...and stay there!

Trauma is trauma... it is legitimate, though never has trauma been acceptable as an excuse when viewed with choice.

We all always have choices for sure but trauma can severely limit and/or change what choices are available to us which can impact hugely on our healing.