Confused By T's Reaction

[Freedomfighter]

A couple weeks ago my T and I were discussing politics and she stated a belief that I believed w...

Run, someone did punch you in the gut. Just because it is a therapist does not mean that this is a good person. I have printed off correct information off before too to underscore the truth. Ahem ,when someone acts negatively to that they might need a therapist themselves.

 

[BlueOrange]

What thing was that?

Ragdoll said that she had found ways to be comfortable with having things in her head that weren't perfectly correct. You replied that you found her statement extremely frightening. My thought was "That is going to #@$! you right up, because mistakes are an inevitable consequence of humanity, and you're going to be frightened of your own mind all the time if you have that kind of thing going on." My next thought was "Fear of your own mind is diagnostic of PTSD, and there are limits as to how far you should push people."

@BlueOrange - that was pretty big what you put out there, and I'm going to have to chew on it for a while.

Yeah, I hope it's not overly derailing for this thread to discuss 'the nature of truth'. I have a similarly DID-induced definition of truth, which goes something like this:
- Reality is reality, and that's the ultimate source that any statement claiming to be true must address
- When we form a perspective on reality, it is 'accurate' to the extent that it matches reality, 'useful' to the extent that it facilitates good decision-making, and 'sensible' to the extent that it is compatible with our existing sense of reality.
- Perspectives may be equal in terms of 'accurate' and 'useful' while conflicting with each other. Attempting to believe both perspectives at once would be 'non-sense', but nonsense is often true. A perspective on both perspectives might make them mutually sensible.
- The Greek philosophical tradition emphasized 'sensible' and 'accurate'. The Chinese philosophical tradition emphasized 'useful' and 'accurate'. I was raised in the Greek tradition (like most English-speakers), but have decided to prefer the Chinese tradition.

I'm starting to suspect that I need to reassess the value I place on facts altogether.

For what it's worth, I place an extremely high value on facts. If reality is the source of truths that are accurate (therefore less likely to mislead), then the immediate observations (that are not required to make sense) are essential for avoiding being trapped in a perspective that might be misleading.

The archaeology metaphor is very appropriate. We may or may not agree about what life was like in ancient Egypt, and whether it was possible to enjoy life as a slave. We are less likely to disagree about where certain pieces of ceramics were found, and what was also found in the same place. Knowing what the perspectives on life in Egypt are drawing from is what makes it possible to form a master-perspective that allows us to make sense of the different views on the same immediate phenomena (facts).

 

[scout86]

you're going to be frightened of your own mind all the time if you have that kind of thing going on.

How this actually works with me is a little different than that. I'm not afraid of my own mind, because "I" won't hurt me. Or my mind won't. The fear comes in, historically, because others might make me pay a price for being 'wrong'. But, that was the dynamic, at least with my mom. I was ALWAYS 'wrong'. So, at the same time, I feel the need to be 'right' and also the impossibility of that. It's kind of funny. My relationship with my mother is NOT what I thought cause the PTSD. In fact, I didn't realize there was anything wrong with it until I'd been in therapy over a year. Finally something happened that set it up so I noticed something was a little messed up. I think my T was wondering how long it would take me to notice. LOL

most things, in the civilian world at least, aren't life and death.

Yeah, I know. That doesn't stop it from feeling like life and death. So what happens is, in the heat of the moment, if feels that important. If I have time to think about it, I remind myself that isn't necessarily true. Depending on my frame of mind at the time, that might go on to telling myself I'm an idiot for thinking that way, or it might not. The stress level is still there. It's just like anything else. Hearing or seeing something might cause some people to dissociate. Dissociating might have been an appropriate response in other, past situations, but not in the present. You go there anyway because that's the way your brain has decided to handle things.

The Greek philosophical tradition emphasized 'sensible' and 'accurate'. The Chinese philosophical tradition emphasized 'useful' and 'accurate'. I was raised in the Greek tradition (like most English-speakers), but have decided to prefer the Chinese tradition.

That's pretty interesting. Somehow I managed to grow up in the US with no clear idea of what "sensible" is. LOL

 

[BlueOrange]

So, at the same time, I feel the need to be 'right' and also the impossibility of that. It's kind of funny.

I would like to suggest to you that the part of you that feels the need to be 'right' has a fearful reaction to the part of you that gets things wrong. This is largely driven by my faith in the Structural Dissociation theory - if SD is right, then people with SD are afraid of their own minds. (Because the treatment for SD is to treat the fear of your own mind.)

Somehow I managed to grow up in the US with no clear idea of what "sensible" is.

I'm using the word 'sensible' in a very particular way, which I invented, and haven't really explained to anyone yet. So I'm not surprised that my use of it doesn't make a lot of sense :) When I have the brain, I'll write up my theory of sense-making and sensibility.

 

[scout86]

if SD is right, then people with SD are afraid of their own minds.

I don't know much about structural dissociation theory. I should probably read up on it. The way I think of this, it's more like you learn to associate certain situations with certain outcomes so those situation can still provoke an expectation of the same outcome, even when that's no longer likely. So I don't really have a sensation that seems to be fear of myself. If there's 'fear' it's more like 'something bad will happen to me if...', but the fear is of something on the outside. It's more a habitual way of responding than anything rational.

 

[Abstract]

I relate to what you said about your mother scout. I too only realised after therapy (around 3 years of it +). After reading the double bind (damned if you do and damned if you don't and damned if you say you are damned either way) interaction with my mother probably fits into that category for me. As children and as conditioned adults one just carries on trying to be good in whatever way you have done all along - until you realise what is happening and then slowly try to break down the process.

It sounds like your mothers scout-is-bad-and wrong messages are still active for you. When scout is of course neither. Scout is a human being who has huge value and who would have that value even if she gets things wrong (not that she often does ;) )! It sounds like getting things right didn't really help you with her. I know it doesn't with mine sadly.

 

[scout86]

)! It sounds like getting things right didn't really help you with her. I know it doesn't with mine sadly.

Very true! I think I said in the other thread, that was, ultimately, kind of liberating. I decided, since it was impossible to 'get things right' by anyone else's standards, the only place there was hope was in trying to do what seemed 'right' to me and that is something I can actually accomplish. (At least part of the time.)

You know, on the one hand, I'm sorry you had that kind of mother. On the other hand, it's kind of cool to know I have something in common with a person I like and respect such as you @Abstract .

 

[Iamsensative]

Love this conversation. As a pleaser, i am totally willing to be wrong, not have the right facts if somehow it leads to peace and no debates. i dont want to go around challenging other people opinions or facts. Its not my job to educate them if they asked me my thoughts i share but i would never go home and do research to expose them to the facts. Just my thoughts, not that anyone is wrong..

 

[Gs172003]

I don't know much about structural dissociation theory. I should probably read up on it. The way I thin...

My therapist calls that "conditioning"

 

[Abstract]

@scout86 I had to run away and hide under a table for a bit on reading your lovely comment but I did read it. Thank you for relating even though I wish you didn't. It helps a lot when I am not alone.

Unfortunately I didn't make the wise decision of throwing out the crazy making blabber from the crazy making criterion maker for a very a long time and still struggle to do so. My therapist had a difficult job and feel for her! Its like she takes possession of my brain and I go into what I call zombie mode. I am improving. I am so proud of you that you at some point realised it made no sense and trusted YOURSELF. And facts of course ;-)

Iamsensitive, that is probably why I never went around jamming facts onto people. Even though I had the desire to do so. A great aversion to any appearance of anyone trying to control me has made me sensitive to any appearance of wanting to do so to others. Whether it is meant as help or control. When it is help I wait to hear someone asking for it. Sometimes a good thing but not always.

 

[Abstract]

@Bill Dickerson I hope the thread hasn't turned out to be unhelpful for you. I read your latest difficulty and hope you can tell us if we are taking over in an unhelpful way.

 

[Bill Dickerson]

Well it seems to have gotten far off track but yall discuss what ever strikes your fancy.