News Conversion therapist comes out.

[Mach123]

I cannot believe that people in here are are arguing FOR conversion therapy. At best this is incredibly naive, and at worst it is incredibly homophobic. @EveHarrington, I choose to believe you are naive. @Mach123, I think you have no idea what conversion therapy is and are talking out your ass.

Conversion therapy is torture. Traditional conversion therapy uses physical negative reinforcement, such as beatings, electroshocks, and occasionally sodomy to take "the gay" away. (No, I'm not joking about that last example. Conversion therapy specialists have often used the therapy itself to sexually abuse children.) Traditional conversion therapy is not optional - it is something "concerned" parents send their sons (and, once in awhile, daughters) to. Conversion therapy is quackery of the highest order and is now condemned by all psychological associations in the entire world.

(I apologize very much for equating homosexuality to a physical problem, but I can't think of a better metaphor.) Let's say you have the misfortune to be born into a community in which physical beauty is seen as the highest good. And let's say, that, unfortunately, you you were born with scoliosis, and you spine becomes more and more crooked the older you get. It is well known in your community that the only way to treat this is by hiring an expert to break the spines of the people with scoliosis. Some kids with scoliosis are sent to the spine-breakers as kids. Some people with scoliosis manage to avoid that, but harbor such a negative self-image of themselves that they go to the spine-breaker themselves in adulthood out of despair and self-loathing. It's also the only way they know of to treat what they perceive as their problem.

The only issue is, spine-breaking therapy doesn't work. Instead, it just paralyzes the people who go through it. And yet, the community continues to advocate spine-breaking as the only true way to fix scoliosis. That, my friends, is conversion therapy.

I'm sorry we disagree but you don't have to call me names which is a prelude to violence. I notice you were the first in line with the baseball bat. I'm not in favor of conversion therapy for you, or for me.

 

[somerandomguy]

You know what ... never mind. Bigots are going to be bigots. Some things should never be acceptable.

 

[Friday]

Isn't that opinion?

Of the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, American College of Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, American Association of Marriage & Family Therapy, the National Association of Social Workers, National Institute of Mental Health... and that’s just in this country.

So it’s a highly evidenced and informed opinion.

Conversion therapy is also banned/illegal in 14 states, including the District of Columbia, but even in state’s where it isn’t illegal, so there’s no risk of criminal trials and prison time, doctors and therapists found to be practicing conversion therapy are at risk of losing their licenses to practice, as it’s deemed highly unethical.

So it’s also a very strongly held opinion, with severe consequences attached.

APA Reiterates Strong Opposition to Conversion Therapy

 

[scout86]

I cannot believe that people in here are are arguing FOR conversion therapy.

I don't think anyone actually IS arguing for it. I think the difference here relates to how to respond to someone who used to DO it. And I can sure see the potential for a variety of feelings about that.

Personally, if the guy sincerely believed in conversion therapy and now he realizes he was wrong and feels remorse for the harm he did, I'd hold off on the baseball bat. People make mistakes. People learn and evolve. Unfortunately, they sometimes do great harm in the process. If, on the other hand, he knew all along that what he was engaged in was junk science and he knew he was harming people and didn't care? Different scenario!

I heard a guy interviewed a couple weeks ago who also used to do conversion "therapy". It turns out he's also gay. I've heard that a percentage of people who go into therapy as a profession do it because they're really looking for solutions to their own problems. I can't help but wonder if that's not the deal with these guys. They were in situations where their natural inclinations were treated as "wrong" and felt the need to do something to "fix" it. That doesn't take away from the harm they did to others, but I think motives matter.

 

[somerandomguy]

Personally, if the guy sincerely believed in conversion therapy and now he realizes he was wrong and feels remorse for the harm he did, I'd hold off on the baseball bat.

How do you feel about someone in authority who sexually molested kids (EDIT: teens. Maybe not kids) back in the 1960s or 1970s, when it was seen as basically a non-harmful act? Should they get a pass too? Or should they go to prison (in more enlightened places without statutes of limitations)?

 

[PTSDGuy]

Then start a group. Perhaps review the Comunity Constitution while you’re at it.

The concept that “Your sexual preference may preclude your right to participate in this conversation” does absolutely nothing to advance sexual equality.

I'm not talking literally... I'm saying that straight people should be listening to members of the LGBT community on whether anti-Gay "conversion" therapy is acceptable or not. I guess it's OK that hearing people can tell Deaf people they're "broken" and should have a cochlear implant attached to their auditory nerve. If you talk with Deaf people, they're against CI's.

And how exactly does straight people sharing uninformed opinions about LGBT sexuality "advance sexual equality"? What advances sexual equality is letting self-hating Gay people know that there is nothing wrong with them, and they need to work on accepting themselves - not tell them they're sick and need to become straight.

(I apologize very much for equating homosexuality to a physical problem, but I can't think of a better metaphor.) Let's say you have the misfortune to be born into a community in which physical beauty is seen as the highest good. And let's say, that, unfortunately, you you were born with scoliosis, and you spine becomes more and more crooked the older you get. It is well known in your community that the only way to treat this is by hiring an expert to break the spines of the people with scoliosis. Some kids with scoliosis are sent to the spine-breakers as kids. Some people with scoliosis manage to avoid that, but harbor such a negative self-image of themselves that they go to the spine-breaker themselves in adulthood out of despair and self-loathing. It's also the only way they know of to treat what they perceive as their problem.

It's actually an excellent comparison.

 

[Sideways]

And how exactly does straight people sharing uninformed opinions about LGBT sexuality "advance sexual equality"?

Absolutely. Uninformed opinions rarely contribute anything meaningful much.

Just saying that a person’s sexual preference shouldn’t be a reason to silence them. Ignorance is a fantastic reason to ignore a person’s opinion, but their sexual preference? I don’t see how that’s relevant.

Only a person who’s been told “There’s something wrong with you because you’re gay” really knows how that feels. But it’s certainly not the case that only people who identify as LGBT are outraged by conversion therapy. To me, it seems critical that everyone understands why conversion therapy is so damaging, and so everyone should be encouraged to participate in that discussion.

ETA: my grandad suffered psychotic depression in the 70s, and was treated with ECT before they introduced anaesthetic. He suffered periods of depression multiple times since then, but shuts down completely if you go anywhere near talking about his mental health, and has refused to seek any mental health treatment from anyone since. I didn’t experience that, but I’m aware of just how terrifying, damaging that dangerous treatment was. So, even though I’ve never been through it, and I’ve never suffered psychosis, I still feel like my outrage and opinions about non-aneasthetised ECT, and what a brutal way to ‘treat’ people it is. I want to make sure that form of ‘treatment’ is never practiced ever again as the next person.

I imagine there are plenty of people who have had a sibling or close friend experience conversion therapy - they’re potentially incredibly well-informed, and as outraged by the practice as anyone. So, you don’t need to be LGBT to have a relevant and very informed opinion.

 

[anthony]

Uninformed opinions rarely contribute anything meaningful much.

Opinions are opinions. That simple. Here -- everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as they leave it as that and don't cross lines to force it on others, argue it, etc. Opinions are not right or wrong. They are personal and everyone has them. Sexual orientation gives nobody any higher right to their opinion on this subject.

If you have gone through this process, then say that, and state your experience and opinions on it. But don't BS another that they need to be LGBT or otherwise to have a valid opinion on this discussion.

I will introduce a new metric to this. This type of therapy is more often than not linked to religion. Another belief system trying to align and treat everything outside of itself, as bad - thus often trying to treat sexual orientation as though it is a fault vs. a natural desire / want / need at a personal level.

 

[LuckiLee]

This isn't surprising to me. But I'm a cynic.

 

[scout86]

How do you feel about someone in authority who sexually molested kids (EDIT: teens. Maybe not kids) back in the 1960s or 1970s, when it was seen as basically a non-harmful act?

I guess I wasn't aware that that's ever been considered to be "ok". I'm totally aware that it's been swept under the rug and covered up, but I don't think it was, officially, "ok."

Let me be clear, I think "conversion therapy" is not ok and I don't think it was ever ok. I do think it's possible that some "practitioners" might have thought they were doing good, when they, in fact, were not. If they realize they were wrong, I guess I see them differently from someone who still thinks it was ok. I suppose if I'd ever run across a pedophile who could convince me they actually felt remorse, I might feel differently about them than I do about the unrepentant. (I'm offering up the possibility that such a creature might exist. I'm not aware of one.) I'm sure not saying anyone deserves a pass. If they violated a law they they should pay the penalty People make mistakes. All kinds of mistakes. And they are capable of realizing that and feeling remorse. Remorse doesn't undo the harm. Nothing can erase history. I don't think acknowledging true remorse, when it exists, diminishes the suffering of the victim. I see it as two separate issues. If someone, anywhere in this conversation, said they thought conversion "therapy" was ok. I totally missed it.

I guess I should also say that I didn't listen to the video and I don't have an opinion on whether or not this person feels remorse. I don't think there's any way to know that, without actually knowing the person. A video can accurately express reality and it can express the opinion of it's maker too. I don't think there's a way to be sure of that just from watching it.

 

[PTSDGuy]

If you have gone through this process, then say that, and state your experience and opinions on it. But don't BS another that they need to be LGBT or otherwise to have a valid opinion on this discussion.

Maybe only Gay people should be allowed to vote on straight marriages... It makes just about as much sense as straight people voting on my rights.

I'm thinking that we need to start Straight conversion therapy. People shouldn't be straight... We should send them to counsellors to learn to be a normal Gay person... It doesn't matter what they really think, because I as a Gay person know that with enough work, Straight people CAN be Gay...

So I have to prove experience, huh? I got raped over and over by my father for being a "faggot"... He wanted to make me "normal"... That's not that different from conversion therapy.. Although he was a cop and not a therapist. But any "therapist" who does this to Gay people deserves to be in jail. It's not BS to say straight people should listen to Gay people on this...

I know there are straight people with valid opinions.. But realize, those opinions have consequences... especially in the US, where one party actually tried to add the "right" to conversion therapy into their party platform only 3 years ago. Gay people were allowed to marry in California, until STRAIGHT people passed a law saying our marriages were invalid.

Maybe this is some kind of interesting thing for straight people to discuss, but it's NOT some hypothetical to me... I had Fred Phelps (God Hates Fags) and his "Church" members literally coming after me... picketing my job and screaming at me that I deserved to die of AIDS... and that I was going to hell for being a faggot.

I've had guys wearing balaclavas send a video to my job saying that they were going to come and MURDER the faggot... and instead of going to the police, my boss at the time "lost" the video. I'm glad they got to vote on my rights...

But it's OK that everyone gets to vote on my rights. When I moved to the US, it was illegal to enter the US as a Gay person. I had a friend flying from London to Toronto via New York who had a letter to their boyfriend in their carry-on read by US Customs and forced to fly back to the UK. Not even allowed to get on a plane from NY to Toronto using the ticket that they had already had. I'm glad they got to vote on my rights.

I've been fired for being Gay, I've been attacked in the streets for holding hands with my husband, and when my husband got a Green Card through work, it took us close to 8 years to get me a Green Card, because at that time only married straight people could bring their spouse into the US... and since Gay marriage wasn't legal yet, we had to spend thousands and thousands on lawyers. If we had been a straight couple, we would have just been handed a second Green Card at the same time.

But, sure... Keep enjoying your "informed" conversation about conversion therapy.... Why should what LGBT people think matter more than what straight people think?

 

[EveHarrington]

Conversion therapy is also banned/illegal in 14 states, including the District of Columbia,

For minors it is banned in 15 states.

The only state where conversion therapy is banned for adults is New York, and that’s about to be challenged in court.