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@Brucielucy

Thank you so much for your reply-your obvious diligence in addressing posts in detail provides the reassurance of sincerity that only such a devotion of time and effort can guarantee.

My interpretation of this is 'thanks for the welcomes but I don't really believe it'.

Yes, exactly. I realize that's it's much more common than not for those with a history of trauma of any sort to feel this way--for the sense of fundamental, inherent corruption of one's very nature to convince each of us that we are infinitely incomprehensible.
and therefore uniquely and irretrievably alone in the world.

However-and unfortunately-despite the fact that we may be intellectually capable of recognizing this phenomenon as a common "symptom of the condition", in itself--thereby signifying implicitly that we are not, after all, alone...

...I think most of us eventually come to understand that such abstract intellectual acceptance goes not very far towards offsetting a lifetime of personal experience.

The experience of being accepted can only come from the actual experience, of course--of one instance of another of one reaching out rather than closing down, one block of it set upon another over time. And in order to change one's experience from the former to the latter in any lasting sense, we must "put ourselves out there" as you have so accurately observed--just as we are--with the newly adjusted internal orientation of attitude which shifts the the previous "habit of experience" of having failed due to the disapproval of others, to one of internal success at having even sincerely tried at all, regardless of whatever rejection we receive from others as a consequence.

Hopefully, as you mentioned, over time, that will the building process of experience I find here. At this point, it is really my only hope of establishing that trend, and overcoming an expectation of rejection which, in itself, of course becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in face-to-face interaction., especially as the stroke's affects to my face, and eye-contact, are prohibitive to experiencing anything but disgust and rejection in direct interpersonal interactions at this point.

You see, I've had a stroke (due to a congenital heart murmur)--fortunately, I suppose, much better...or much "less bad", than it could have been.

I also have a congenital heart murmur, but have been told that it is innocent - i.e. insignificant. What was causing the murmur for you, by which I mean do you know why it led to having a stroke?

A heart murmur, or "Atrial Fibrillation", is the leading cause of stroke. Of course, the risk does depend on the specific nature, in each individual case, and as you mentioned, in some cases it is relatively benign. I'm very glad yours is.

The risk of stroke in Atrial Fibrillation is mainly a function of stress. And I returned to my parent's home in order to provide 24hr. care for my father during the final stages of his struggle with Parkinson's Disease, for 5 years. The stress can't be described, except to say that it can only be even comprehended by those who provide care to a family member with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's Disease, or another neurodegenerative condition.

During this time my mother "uninstalled my safe place" as I put it--during this period she went from having previously been my greatest advocate and close confidante...to a merciless persecutor, heaping scorn upon my head at every opportunity and without a single word said in anything but an outright attempt to cause pain. She saw me as a threat to the inheritance, I realized later and attempted to block my every attempt to become close or share any kind of relationship or even basic exchange with my dying father, to both of our amazement, chagrin, and miserable recognition of a side of my mother which we realized had been kept hidden from public view all our lives. She pressured him relentlessly , in private of course, to sign over power of attorney, becoming violent when he refused her attempts. At one point he came to me on a rare occasion when we were allowed to be alone, and begged me to go to a family-friend, an attorney, and have papers drawn up leaving his entire estate to me. I was forced to decide between my mother and father. If I had consented to his wishes, my family would have been destroyed, obviously. But his appeal to me as his only and best friend, and couched in terms of the final wishes of a dying man, was heartbreaking. Not to do so would have been a fundamental betrayal, and indication that I had finally and forever "chosen sides" against him, and professed loyalty to an evil oppressor, now in the person of my mother. I could not do it. The look on his face was indescribably. He never forgave me. He never looked me in the eye again. I had doomed him to spend the last remaining moments of his life under the unbreakable grasp of an abusive, emotionally brutal fiend.

It was sometime during that period that I began experiencing what I now know to be a series of small strokes which finally resulted in my current condition. At the time, I was nearly insane, however--the stress was overwhelming and the heartbreaking drama of the nightmare my family had become played out on a continuous basis, every moment of every day.

But if that weren't enough, I'd been prescribed Effexor by a general practitioner as an anti-depressant. Little did I know at the time that, as primarily a norepenephrine reuptake inhibiting medication, it would blow the lid off of the repressed pain, terror, and bewilderment I'd kept walled off and tightly repressed from childhood. As my symptoms worsened, progressing to near constant fits of uncontrollable weeping, dangerously fragile and overt hypervigilence bordering on paranoia, and a continuous, driving agitation (all common responses to norepinephrine by those who have been sensitized to adrenaline by early PTSD--C-PTSD, especially--norepinephrine being closely related to adrenaline and serving many of the same functions, neurochemically)...he continued to prescribe more of the same, until I was eventually taking over twice the recommended daily dosage. My circumstances at home were so extreme that I attributed my symptoms to that, alone. But at the time, due to the medication, I now realized, I did not have a single wit about me, so to speak. I was raving, completely submerged in a medicated state that ensured I was continuously experiencing a state of mind identical to being in the height of close-quarters combat. Even all previous knowledge of medicine and the need for research into one's own medication regimen deserted me. I was unable to sit still long enough even to read or for that matter comprehend and process information, much less be capable of interpreting any sort of scientific information. I'm amazed now, to realize what a state I was in at the time. I'd spent a good deal of my life up to that point doing hard-science medical research to that point, just in my spare time (I was a pre-med Biology student at University). But I was so frenzied, so affected that it did not even occur to me at the time.


Even before the stroke, I was run out of almost every therapists office I saw. It's interesting, almost every one--some 10 or so, I've forgotten exactly, now--stood up shouting "How can I help you!! How can I help you !! How can I help you!!", until I got up and dashed out in bewilderment (makes me wonder if this is a technique they learn in school..."If you're only saying 'How can I help you', no one can accuse you of abuse...").

Even before the stroke, I was run out of almost every therapists office I saw. It's interesting, almost every one--some 10 or so, I've forgotten exactly, now--stood up shouting "How can I help you!! How can I help you !! How can I help you!!", until I got up and dashed out in bewilderment (makes me wonder if this is a technique they learn in school..."If you're only saying 'How can I help you', no one can accuse you of abuse...").

I don't really understand this. I can find so many answers to the question - such as 'I have a history of trauma and I want to be able to leave the past and move on with my life'
or 'I simply need trauma therapy please'
or 'I have symptoms that include ( for example) depression, anxiety and fear and would like to learn how to manage them'
There are a million of possible answers. This would explain why therapists ask the question. Some people want therapy just to talk and off-load rather than process and progress. Others are hopeful of a cure or are looking for acknowledgment .Still others expect the therapist to fix all the difficulties in their life. Unless the therapist knows where you are coming from and your expectation they do not have a starting point.


When I made the previous post, I admittedly failed to include the details of the mentioned interactions with therapists, in the interest of "staying on point" and communicating the bigger picture, as main goal of the post.

The specifics require a great deal of explanation. For example, in every such instance when I was confronted with this behavior, I did actually answer the question honestly and immediately. On several occasions, I replied "just listen". In others, I was more specific, replying for example, "I've had a great deal of trauma, I've never been able to relate to my peers...".

However, as we all know, it's not nearly as much what's said, as it is how it's said--and in each of these instances, the question was asked challengingly, as though to say "I'm in charge here, don't act like you are". And in around 6 instances, I was immediately interrupted before I could even finish my reply, it was obvious that it was not a question ask out of legitimate and constructive attempt to discern my goals for the process.

In each of these instances, my attempts to answer was met with an ever more agressive repetition of the question, until the therapist was literally shouting it into my face, while staring at me intently, and aggressively. In two instances, the therapist literally rose from his chair (these two were male) and began shouting "HOW CAN I HELP YOU!!!!" until I fled the room.

In short, all of the mental health care practitioners I saw were Americans, and by that point, Americans were my sworn enemies. I'd never had any experience other than rejection from an American, up to that point--most especially American males (most were near -violent, and many actually physically violent)--and these therapists all happened to be Americans, causing me to-out of unconscious habit, adopt a posture obvious to anyone as that of one declaring "It's me vs. you, and you will not break me".

However, as I mentioned, that was most, not all of the therapist I saw. I admit that not all reacted in this way. One said, after I'd told my story, and explained my predicament, "You know, I'm not surprised that you've had problems, at all. You have an extremely unusual way of speaking." He was referring to the same thing that I've been attacked for all my life--I speak LIKE a Latin American--but I have neither the accent or appearance to legitimize it by putting it into the correct context. I no more understand how to speak, act, or interact like an American than I do an Eskimo or Pygmy. I wasn't raised by Eskimos or Pygmies...and I wasn't raised by Americans, either.

As any potential therapeutic alliance must be based on trust of one's therapist, of course, these interviews were not only doomed before they started by my by that point unconscious, but automatic posture of enmity toward Americans. Evident in every aspect of my interaction with these therapist was an unspoken "it's me vs. you, and you will not break me" attitude plainly obvious from everything from my tone, to nonverbal cues, obvious especially to a trained eye.

So I no less than guaranteed not only my own rejection, but provoked their attack. I was in an approach of "attacking the enemy before I could be attacked", even though at the time it was unconscious. Like most of us, I think, I avoided self-analysis, or any opportunity for insight, any idea of "looking within", at all costs. When it's you against the world, you can't stop to consider your part, after all. That might be taken for weakness or indecision. And if I looked inside I would risk consciously seeing what I only knew at that point to be an unnamed dread to be walled-off. If I were to look, I might become consciously aware of it, and so become unable to continue to portray "the act" with enough confidence for it to remain effective in convincing the world that "it's not me, it's you".

At the time of these few, unusual instances--of finding a tdoc/pdoc who was even slightly receptive to such a not only seemingly culturally inappropriate but antagonistic display, or at least not confrontational in response--in those few instances I have to take responsibility for not being at all a good candidate for treatment in the least, myself. I'll now be the first to admit that.

So these good souls who were attempting to be receptive, or at least not shout me from their offices, were still implicitly "the enemy", according to my committed habit of posture, even if that habit had by that point become automatic, and so unconscious, it was deeply a part of my "operating procedure". I operated on the fundamental assumption that "Not only are they are incapable of understanding, at all--so why try"... but "you can only expect attack". So come out strong.

As many may know, the therapeutic process is seen as useless without emotional engagement. This is, in fact, why members of what's now labeled "traditional cultures" are considered to be "refractory to treatment", by many if not most therapists--in "traditional cultures" (again, almost every developed civilization other than the U.S.) it is, in fact, antisocial to emotionally engage immediately--to have no "reserve"--it's considered a lack of appropriate restraint, childish, overly familiar, and so an invasive failure to show common respect for another's boundaries out of courtesy. In other words, their culture sanctions an avoidance of "opening up immediately" and exposing an unadulterated, uncontrolled view of the emotional processes underlying your communication.


"The recitation of facts without the accompanying emotions is a sterile exercise, without therapeutic effect. As Breur and Freud noted a century ago, 'recollection without affect almost invariably produces no result". (Trauma and Recovery-Herman)

This is refractory to treatment, because therapists must have emotional engagement, as I mentioned, even if they have to FORCE it. The process is useless otherwise. I now realize that this is what these shouting therapists were attempting to do.

However, in traditional cultures, this is seen simply as unjustified aggression, and justifiable cause not only for resistance to the attempt, but for counterattack--as it runs contrary to commonly accepted social norms of "formal" interaction, i.e courteous respect for others boundaries.

While there are not many therapists willing to work with members of a traditional culture, for that reason--i.e. protocol dictates setting an early precedent of emotional engagement, to set the tone for the rest of the process--among other factors--there are nonetheless some willing to do so. That is, if the individual has a legitimate claim on membership in such a culture. There would be no point in doing otherwise, after all, as the person's reaction would be negative, and so counterproductive to establishing the therapeutic alliance.

But in my case, I had no apparent legitimate claim on such a "composed" style of interaction, which in the context of an American of my generation, is interpreted as detachment--a lack of emotional engagement. So they followed their protocol, and attempted to "break through the shell", to forcibly make me engage Add to this the fact that the "piercing gaze of the Latin American", for example --which is taken into consideration as a cultural characteristic when seen in one who is clearly Latin---when the rest of the identifying markers of accent, etc. are not there, the same quality of eye contact is seen therefore as an American who is attempting to "stare someone down", in order to establish dominance. And these therapists were responding, therefore to that, in their aggression.

But quality of eye-contact was always the determining factor in their assurance that I was of Latin heritage.
This is fascinating. I never considered eye-contact in this context.

Members of every culture have certain means of recognizing their own kind, almost on sight, or at least upon being confronted with another member. Eye-contact may be one of the most powerful phenomenons in the universe--it is to communicate wordlessly, after all, in essence. It is to connect with another's soul. And it happens to be the most important element of communication among Latin Americans. It's vital. Principal. And the acceptable quality of eye-contact between Americans could not be more different from that of the eye-contact expected between members of Latin culture. I still don't understand American's eye-contact. Of course, I shouldn't be expected to--I wasn't raised in an American home.

As I said, it took me a long time to put all this together. But now that I understand the premise of the behavior, my resentment toward the individual therapists has been cleared, as well as that towards the institution. It was a simple misunderstanding.

I could go on for reams about how and why Latin traits and style of communication are considered violently antisocial and unacceptable in the context of an apparently American male, but that's for my longer story, which I'm working on currently.


Not only would none believe my story...none were willing to accept what appeared to be and sounded like an American, but with completely alien traits--and as they were Anglo-Americans, ones for which they had no frame of reference for placing in the first place.

Are you judging other people's reactions without giving them a chance? You are you, regardless of culture, history and disability. A therapist worth their salt will not judge you, and should be prepared to listen to what is important to you.

Were it not for the factors related to "cultural confusion" I mentioned, I would agree entirely. And thank you for calling my attention to the fact that, all too often, having experienced rejection/victimization, and experiencing ourselves as worthless, we expect exactly more of the same, falsely reading rejection into others reactions to us when it isn't there. I admit that's been a lifelong tendency. And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, of course..the "Art of Expectation".

This is fascinating. I never considered eye-contact in this context. I have dealt with issues regarding lack of eye contact associated with shame in therapy. My therapist gently 'forced' eye contact from me and I then realised just how powerful it can be.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned, eye-contact is fundamental to the therapeutic process. And I can't establish eye contact at all--not anything like real eye-contact, which is representative of an interior emotional state...not with my eye-lids twitching and quivering, as well as the muscles around my eyes doing so, contorting my view of any face--and then my face following suit--at any attempt to focus on a face before me. As you mentioned, "unbroken" eye-contact is usually required by therapists as fundamental to the therapeutic process.


I guess if you have lost that it must be incredibly difficult. Is it lost forever or is there still a chance that you might recover some control?

It's the most difficult thing. Without question. It's torture. As for whether or not it's permanent, it's difficult to say, at this point. I've checked into eyelid surgery, and it appears as though it affords some hope. However, there was some damage to the quality of my vision--my eyes themselves--as well. But it's impossible at this point to tell to what extent my eye-contact will be affected purely in terms of visual acuity, at this point--as due to my eyelid dysfunction, it's impossible to establish even the slightest eye-contact whatsoever, so as to get some idea. But I think it may be o.k. While my eye's aren't focused "near-field", as intently as they are when looking at someone's face, my vision is only slightly blurred, and a little cloudy. I'm hoping for the best.

Good for you!!! That is the positive mental attitude that I love to hear - although I know it is not always (often?) easy.

When hanging over a precipice, dangling over the abyss, your fall and certain death prevented only by your firm grasp on one small branch...you don't hang on because it's easy. You hang on because it's all you have.

Thank you so much for your post. It warms my heart.
 
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Yes, exactly. I realize that's it's much more common than not for those with a history of trauma of any sort to feel this way--for the sense of fundamental, inherent corruption of one's very nature to convince each of us that we are infinitely incomprehensible.
and therefore uniquely and irretrievably alone in the world.
I have to disagree with you here. I understand that we all feel different because of the trauma we have suffered. However my membership here and on the PTSD forum have shown me that I am part of a very big group of trauma survivors. Yes everybody's traumatic experience is different but then every human is different. That does not make us alone in the world. We are individuals, yes, but we are all a part of the greater society, and it is up to us to decide what part we want or are able to play in that.

I am interested in your history of Atrial Fibrillation and heart murmur. A murmur is not caused by fibrillation so it sounds as if they are 2 separate issues. I don't suppose that is helpful to you, it is probably irrelevent - the stroke is what matters.
As you mentioned, "unbroken" eye-contact is usually required by therapists as fundamental to the therapeutic process.
No, this is not what I meant. I certainly had more than a year of therapy before my therapist had even mentioned it. So I do believe that it is not a requirement to progress, although as I said before it certainly helped me when I addressed it specifically for shame. Thereafter I have not/do not make eye contact with T every session. I am still not comfortable with it and have to make a special effort.

I was thinking about visually impaired/blind people. Clearly they will not have the ability to make eye contact, but there must be therapy accessible to them. Some would even have their blindness caused by the trauma they are dealing with so I suggest specialist trauma therapists must exist. It might take a bit of investigation to access it but surely worth the try?

Clearly your culture means a lot to you. However it comes across as if you feel alienated and ostracised because of it. Can you not be fiercely proud of your heritage, whilst accepting the differences of other cultures? It comes across as if you are using it as an excuse not to engage. Forgive me if you find this insulting, it is not meant to be. Sometimes you have to step past the boundaries, however difficult that may be. A leap of faith if you like- jumping in with both feet, even when you are not comfortable and seeing where that takes you. Clearly you have little trust in therapists, but I would think that you really could be helped by one if you gave them a chance. Therapy is a journey taken together - it is not me versus the therapist. My T actually thanked me for allowing him to travel the road with him - he acknowledged that it was the first time I had ever let anyone do that. His comments changed my perspective, and made me realise that he saw my sharing of my difficult life experiences with him as a privilege.

I am pleased to hear there is a possibility of eyelid surgery to improve your situation. I also wonder how much your facial contortions are stress related? Maybe not, but I can only imagine that the harder you try to keep your facial expressions under control the more likely they are to have a mind of their own? I certainly think that you would be helped by not worrying about it. I don't mean that lightly. I mean accepting one's disability, and holding one's head up high and saying you 'stuff you' to anybody who dares comment. It is hard to reach that place, but would that not feel good?
 
I think you have been incredibly unlucky to meet so many therapists, who behaved in the same inappropriate way. I've seen a variety of different therapists and psychiatrists, none have ever demanded to know "How can I help you?". Nor have I come across any that expected eye contact, or emotional engagement in the early days of our therapy. As you say, it takes time to build up the trust required for either of these things to happen. To expect them on the first meeting, is ridiculously unrealistic, whatever culture you are.

I also disagree that eye contact is essential to the therapeutic process, I moved a very long forward in therapy, before I was ever able to look directly into my therapists eyes. Even then, whether I looked into her eyes or not, it was not the deciding factor in moving forwards.

Clearly, I'm not Latin-American, living among American people. But I do live in an extensive multi-cultural society, where the majority are acceptant of different cultures. Several of my therapist were from different cultures than I, but it was never a barrier. The only barrier was whether the therapist and I 'clicked'. That was the only reason it took me a while to find the right person for me.

Without wanting to offend you, I do wonder if you are laying too much emphasis on your culture, and making assumptions as to what you believe others think about you. As you have said
all of the mental health care practitioners I saw were Americans, and by that point, Americans were my sworn enemies.
Perhaps it's time to pull down the barriers, forget any preconceived idea's you have about Americans, and try again. If you pull down your barriers, maybe they will do the same in return.
 
My cultural background is white trash. That sounds crazy unless you also grew up in that culture and then you understand that it is a culture as much as any other.

It *is* hard to constantly be surrounded by a culture not your own. I don't understand the references most people make. I don't want the same tv. I don't listen to the same music. I don't make eye contact in the same ways (I make really intense eye contact with everyone and that creates a whole different set of problems).

Everyone on this forum will have wildly different experiences than you... I don't think that means you are alone. We are all on a journey together. Yes, we each have to walk our own portion of the road... that doesn't mean we are alone.

I have seen more than twenty therapists (I'm 32). It can take a long time to find one that is a good fit. It's not a lot easier than finding the right person to date. You have to be willing to outright fire bad matches without feeling guilty. They are a service provider and you just don't like how they provide the service you are looking for.

It took me 27 years in therapy before I knew what to say when I was shopping for a new therapist. Eventually I got enough of the "wrong" kind of help that I knew where my boundaries were.

Every relationship that doesn't work out has as much to teach you as relationships that do work out. The lessons are just slightly different.

Don't give up on you.
 
@Brucielucy--@[DLMURL="http://www.mysexualabuse.com/members/cherryblossom.2/"]cherryblossom[/DLMURL]--@[DLMURL="http://www.mysexualabuse.com/members/rightkindofme.1214/"]rightkindofme[/DLMURL]

Thank you all dearly for your kind words of support. Your sincere concern in itself makes me feel less alone. I've experienced more receptiveness and kindness on this forum than I have in a very long time, and the effect is profound, already.

Yes, exactly. I realize that's it's much more common than not for those with a history of trauma of any sort to feel this way--for the sense of fundamental, inherent corruption of one's very nature to convince each of us that we are infinitely incomprehensible.
and therefore uniquely and irretrievably alone in the world.
I have to disagree with you here. I understand that we all feel different because of the trauma we have suffered. However my membership here and on the PTSD forum have shown me that I am part of a very big group of trauma survivors. Yes everybody's traumatic experience is different but then every human is different. That does not make us alone in the world. We are individuals, yes, but we are all a part of the greater society, and it is up to us to decide what part we want or are able to play in that.

You're most definitely right--becoming a member of a support group of others, of any kind, who have experienced similar traumatic experiences is paramount in beginning to feel a sense that one is not alone. I should have made my previous statement clearer--as I was referring rather to such feelings as an early tendency, before any connection with support groups. I do believe that joining such a group of like minded and sympathetic groups is the first step in reversing this trend, and I thank you for your words of encouragement--that this experience of being fundamentally unacceptable can, in fact, be reversed.

I am interested in your history of Atrial Fibrillation and heart murmur. A murmur is not caused by fibrillation so it sounds as if they are 2 separate issues. I don't suppose that is helpful to you, it is probably irrelevent - the stroke is what matters.

Yes, you're right of course, they are separate issues. I didn't mean to imply otherwise-I must have misstated.

As you mentioned, "unbroken" eye-contact is usually required by therapists as fundamental to the therapeutic process.

No, this is not what I meant. I certainly had more than a year of therapy before my therapist had even mentioned it. So I do believe that it is not a requirement to progress, although as I said before it certainly helped me when I addressed it specifically for shame. Thereafter I have not/do not make eye contact with T every session. I am still not comfortable with it and have to make a special effort.

Thank you for clarifying. You seem to have been more fortunate than I in your experience with therapists. It's comforting and encouraging to know that this doesn't apply to all T's, making me less concerned about it as an issue in the future.

I noticed you're in Scotland. I'm not sure whether you've ever visited the U.S., or had therapy in the U.S., with an American therapist...but as the cultures are very different, the expected style of interaction is very different, as well.

I've even read--I can't remember where, now--that the difference between the American and European ideas of the therapeutic process differ decidedly, as institutions, in some ways even running contrary to each other, conceptually.

Even if in no other ways, the fact that American culture is more aggressive and confrontational in style, means that the expected quality of interaction within therapy is consistent with this theme--at least in the case of an American therapist tailoring his/her expectations accordingly when conducting therapy with another--at least apparent--American. Which is what I am, of course, in the eyes of any American. Put simply...if the patient is assumed to come from an aggressive and confrontational culture, that becomes the nature of the "playing field" of their interactions. Which is why I have difficulty with American therapists, I believe, as I have the same difficulty with this aggressive and confrontational approach which would be expected from any European, or Latin American--but without the apparent traits of accent which would qualify me for the need for a different approach.

This is why I've realized my need for finding a Latin, or for that matter European, therapist.

I realize that this is very difficult to both explain and understand for those not in the fairly unique position of being taken for a member of an aggressive, confrontational culture, when in fact you are at the other end of the spectrum, but without any real means of convincing anyone otherwise--at least anyone without the frame of reference necessary to recognize these trait, and therefore acknowledge one's right to be treated accordingly, rather than confronted as someone who is simply "acting in an inappropriate way in the context of his culture", and so confronted in order to force him to "drop the act"--which is what I believe has been my primary problem with therapists previously, due to their inability to believe my assertions as to my legitimate claim to membership in Latin culture.


Clearly your culture means a lot to you.

That's exactly the case. At the risk of seeming to "beat a dead horse", it's likely impossible for one who has not spent time in the U.S. to appreciate exactly how not only aggressively confrontational it is, but how xenophobic most Americans are. Put simply, it's only barely o.k. to be "a foreigner", in the first place, for very many Americans--and that's even with the accent/coloration which would give one an obvious claim on being different. It's barely o.k. for Latin Americans to come across as Latin Americans, in the U.S., as far as most Americans are concerned. To do so without any apparent claim on such differences is not only frankly unacceptable, but considered antisocial and inadequate in the context of American's expectation of other American's behavior. And as to all immediate appearances, I am American--ostracized is exactly what I have been, my entire life--up to and including outright physical assault, my traits not being seen in context of a Latin American, but simply as an American with "something wrong with them". Again, I do realize that it's not easy for those without first hand knowledge of "The American Experience" to really understand.

Can you not be fiercely proud of your heritage, whilst accepting the differences of other cultures? It comes across as if you are using it as an excuse not to engage.

At this point, I realize I run the risk of seeming as though I'm simply "resolved to create problems for the sake of having problems", as any full explanation is so complicated as to be understandably lost on everyone else...

...But I'll try: I am both fiercely proud of my heritage--and accepting of others. I did not mean to suggest otherwise. My reaction to Americans is not a conscious, intellectual one, on the basis of culture---but rather an experienced one, resulting from lifelong attack in interactions with Americans. For example, have you ever known someone who was bitten by a dog as a child, and despite the fact that they are now a grown adult of 6ft, is still unable to be near any dog, even a chihauha, without experiencing a visceral, physical "get it away!!" reaction?

I have. It's not all that uncommon, actually. This is identical to my reaction to Americans. The individual afraid of the dog does not have a hatred of "doghood", or "dogness", per se--They have a primal, physical reaction based upon early traumatic experience, which supersedes all intellectual processes, as of one recoiling from a hot stove.


Forgive me if you find this insulting, it is not meant to be

Thank you for this consideration--but I don't find it insulting. As I've mentioned, I don't expect anyone else to understand, really. I'm not sure if there's ever been a representative of a culture without any accent or difference in skin tone which would give them an obvious right to display the traits of that culture. It fairly boggles the mind, and I've given up on ever really being able to convey the experience to another.

Sometimes you have to step past the boundaries, however difficult that may be. A leap of faith if you like- jumping in with both feet, even when you are not comfortable and seeing where that takes you.

You are most definitely correct--under ordinary circumstances. Unfortunately, mine are far from ordinary. I mentioned the "dog attack" reaction. This is not only not easily overcome--but with good reason: One cannot expect anything but rejection from a peer group when communicating with traits alien to that peer group, but without any convincing right to do so. And when it's a matter of the average American, both aggressive, as well as distrustful of the alien--this is a healthy fear to have. I have a lifelong history of confirmation as to its accuracy.

I realize that at first glance, this appears to be a derogatory remark directed at Americans. I do not mean it as such. There are simply basic characteristics in any culture, and American culture is widely recognized as particularly unfriendly to "foreigners", or for that matter, anyone who "comes across" as "Un-American". It is, after all, only one of many such cultures. That does not, in itself, make it somehow "inferior", etc. And that is not what I'm implying, in any way. I'm only trying to convey my experience, in context of such a culture.

Clearly you have little trust in therapists, but I would think that you really could be helped by one if you gave them a chance. Therapy is a journey taken together - it is not me versus the therapist. My T actually thanked me for allowing him to travel the road with him - he acknowledged that it was the first time I had ever let anyone do that. His comments changed my perspective, and made me realise that he saw my sharing of my difficult life experiences with him as a privilege

You are correct. I have little trust in therapists. I have little trust in anyone, in fact. My father's cocaine induced paranoia set an example of "everyone is a threat", which runs bone deep, as any attitude modeled by one's same-sex parent does, as it's adopted as one's own. This is a separate problem, in itself. As we learn in Psych 101: "One interacts with the world in the way that a child's same-sex parent interacts with the child." It becomes a template, so to speak, governing perception.

...But not only was this attitude of paranoia modeled for me--but it was then both confirmed, and reinforced, by a lifetime of being continuously attacked for displaying "unacceptable cultural traits".

You may begin to see why I have such an expectation of rejection, now: There are very few people who, when confronted with such a complicated and seemingly insurmountable set of circumstances, will not simply "throw up their hands". Unfortunately, this applies to therapists, as well. It's simply "too much" for most to be expected to take on.

But as I mentioned, I am determined to give therapy a chance. I see the clinical necessity of it in my case, objectively.
This is why I'm seeking out Latin trauma specialists, as I mentioned. But I do appreciate the continued reassurance and encouragement in that direction. It's obvious that you are aware of the importance of entering therapy, and are making a point to reassure me of its productive outcome, out of sincere concern.

And as [DLMURL="http://www.mysexualabuse.com/members/rightkindofme.1214/"]@rightkindofme so insightfully put it:[/DLMURL]
Every relationship that doesn't work out has as much to teach you as relationships that do work out. The lessons are just slightly different.
Which is exactly the conclusion I've reached--only after far too long. I've resolved to keep at it regardless, until I find someone I can work with.


Clearly, I'm not Latin-American, living among American people. But I do live in an extensive multi-cultural society, where the majority are acceptant of different cultures. Several of my therapist were from different cultures than I, but it was never a barrier. The only barrier was whether the therapist and I 'clicked'. That was the only reason it took me a while to find the right person for me.

Without wanting to offend you, I do wonder if you are laying too much emphasis on your culture, and making assumptions as to what you believe others think about you.

I understand your sentiment completely. All I can say is that unless you've spent time in the U.S., it's difficult to appreciate how both aggressive, and confrontational American cultural expectations are with regard to standards of interaction, in comparison to almost every other developed culture, worldwide.

It must seem--coming from a culture which is traditional, and so based fundamentally upon ideas of politeness and respect for others boundaries--as though I am simply "making mountains out of molehills".

As to whether I'm making assumptions as to what others think about me--assumption really doesn't enter into it. When people have shouted in your face "Don't talk like that!!", and "People don't talk like that", and "What are you, some kind of foreigner", all your life...assumptions are unnecessary. But it's natural to assume that "it can't possibly, actually be that bad", for others, especially as the complaint originates from one who is already presumably depressed, and "down in it", and so likely to see the world as colored in such a negative fashion. It's simply too much for others to "get their heads around", ultimately.

But I'd like to make the point, again, that none of this is said out of a "nobody likes me/everybody hates me/I guess I'll go eat worms" mentality of the martyr seeking pity. As I mentioned, when it's all you've known--you've never known different

...as the student fish said to the professor fish, "What's this thing called the ocean you keep talking about?"


all of the mental health care practitioners I saw were Americans, and by that point, Americans were my sworn enemies.

Perhaps it's time to pull down the barriers, forget any preconceived idea's you have about Americans, and try again. If you pull down your barriers, maybe they will do the same in return.

This relates back to the "dog attack" metaphor. It's not so much a matter of being able to consciously "pull down barriers", when your associations are that deep, and violent.

And as for "them pulling down their barriers if I do the same"...I can't really say more than: it's o.k. to be Latin if you ARE Latin...it's NOT o.k., if you're not.... And to all appearances, I'm not. It's really that simple. People don't let down their barriers to someone they immediately sense "has something wrong with them", which is what all Americans think of me.

Which is why I'll move to Latin America, as soon as possible. It is no exaggeration to say that the only time I have ever experienced a sense of safety, or for that matter, of "the world making sense", is when I lived in Mexico for 6 months.

So I know what I must do, and it's only a matter of putting one foot in front of the other.

You've all been so sincerely kind and honestly interested. I wish I knew how to thank you in proportion to what difference its meant to me, even just over these last few days. Again, thank you.

Which is why I'm seeking out Latin therapists.
 
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For example, have you ever known someone who was bitten by a dog as a child, and despite the fact that they are now a grown adult of 6ft, is still unable to be near any dog, even a chihauha, without experiencing a visceral, physical "get it away!!" reaction?
I am sorry Promicarus, but this made me laugh. I was bitten by a dog when I was about 3. I have always known it was not the dog's fault - it went after a fly that had landed on my leg. Anyway, I still have the scar to show for it, and was terrified of dogs thereafter.( I am not 6 ft though)

However since I started therapy, that is one of the things that has changed. It is not as if the dog bite was in any way connected to my abuse, but it is another fear I have been able to tackle head on. I now touch other people's dogs. I have taken my friend's dog for walks. We have even spoken of getting a dog ourselves in the future, as Rory would very much like to. Before therapy I would not have even considered it.I have completely changed in ways I would never have thought possible.
I'm not sure whether you've ever visited the U.S., or had therapy in the U.S.
I have visited for a holiday but never had therapy there. A holiday does not give you a realistic outlook on society and culture, so I cannot comment on that. However I do know that even in the UK there are a vast array of therapists with different opinions and very different modes of practice.There are also therapists from many cultures, religions and other backgrounds to reflect the society we live in.
...as the student fish said to the professor fish, "What's this thing called the ocean you keep talking about?"
LOL! How true!

If your aim is to go to Mexico and seek therapy there then I hope that works out for you. On the other hand, is it possible to access therapy in Mexico while you are still in America? I don't know the logistics, but I am thinking of telephone/skype/internet therapy. In my opinion these would always be second best, but surely better than nothing?
 
A pitbull ripped a large chunk of my face off when I was five. I had 117 stitches to put me back together. (You can't tell by looking at me--I had a great surgeon.)

I'm not actually afraid of dogs. I am reticent but not afraid.

I think that saying that all therapists from a country are the same is kind of like saying that all men are rapists. Uhm... demonstrably not. :)

Many therapists suck a lot. I hear you. Keep shopping. :) I don't think the fact that they are American is the biggest factor. Do you know much about different schools of psychotherapy? In particular I work best with Harm Reduction Specialists. :)
 
@Promicarus . I don't really 'get' how your dog bite analogy fits with your situation. I get how an individual bitten once by a dog, could become terrified of all dogs with a 'get it away!' reaction. Is that what happened with you, and Americans? Was one American hurtful towards you, so you now have that 'get it away!' reaction to all Americans?

Or is it at the other end of the spectrum - have all Americans hurt you? (have you been bitten by every dog you've ever come across?). There's a vast difference in these two scenarios.

Or perhaps it's somewhere in between, some Americans have hurt you, others haven't. Wouldn't that show that there a good and bad people in every culture, the world over?

I was raped by a Scottish , white, male human being. Using your dog bite analogy, does that make me terrified of every human being, or every male, or every Scottish person? No of course it doesn't, because as human beings we are able to sum up all our experiences with other human beings and come to a logical conclusion. The scenario is a little different with dogs, because we can't communicate in the traditional sense with a dog, to make an informed decision about their behaviour, or how they might behave. My experience has certainly made me more wary of everyone, and less trusting, but it hasn't made me run for the hills (yet!)

If you have indeed encountered a majority of negative reactions from all the Americans you have ever encountered, then you are doing yourself a disservice to compare your situation with a single dog bite.

I've been to America several times, only as a visitor, but I have never encountered hostility, aggression or the unfriendliness you describe. I also encounter a lot of Americans on these forums, but again I haven't encountered any such hostility simply because I'm from a different culture to them.

I still have to wonder whether several hostile and hurtful individuals are colouring your judgement of a whole race of people. The only reason I question it is because you make such complete statements about all Americans
People don't let down their barriers to someone they immediately sense "has something wrong with them", which is what all Americans think of me.

I truly hope that you can find the right therapeutic help that you need. I need to try to get his thread back to the topic in hand - sexual abuse. I'm not sure that dealing with your sexual abuse is your biggest priority right now, when you clearly have such an issue with your culture, and your ability to live alongside Americans.

I don't say that to dismiss the sexual abuse, but until you find a place to live where you feel you can be yourself, and live relatively stress free, I don't know that you would make much progress in trying to process your trauma. Even this thread quickly moved away from your sexual abuse trauma to other things, mainly your culture. Yes, I asked the questions, but none of your replies come back to the sexual abuse, they are all about your culture, and how you don't fit in with Americans.

If you want to discuss your sexual abuse, then we will happily try our best to help you. I haven't walked in your shoes, I don't understand your culture, or the American culture. I can only try to offer my best thoughts about those situation. But lets get this back to the point - sexual abuse. How does that affect your life?
 
@[DLMURL="http://www.mysexualabuse.com/members/cherryblossom.2/"]cherryblossom[/DLMURL]

I truly hope that you can find the right therapeutic help that you need. I need to try to get his thread back to the topic in hand - sexual abuse. I'm not sure that dealing with your sexual abuse is your biggest priority right now, when you clearly have such an issue with your culture, and your ability to live alongside Americans.
If you want to discuss your sexual abuse, then we will happily try our best to help you. I haven't walked in your shoes, I don't understand your culture, or the American culture. I can only try to offer my best thoughts about those situation. But lets get this back to the point - sexual abuse. How does that affect your life?
I understand completely. You're right, of course-this forum is specific to sexual abuse, obviously, not "problems in acculturation".
I'd already feared that I'd gone on too long in that vein, but in my previous responses, was attempting to clarify by addressing specific questions and issues that were being raised by those responding to my posts.


But you're entirely right. As I'm only now beginning, it's difficult to untangle exactly how, and to what degree, I'm affected by my sexual abuse. And you're right in saying that my most predominant issue is trauma related to what could be termed "bullying" I suppose, instead. And this is not a "bullying" or "acculturation" site, and I respect your need and attempt to remain on-topic.

I should thank you and others who've even remained interested and supportive at all.

My sexual abuse did result in definite problems which I deal with to this day, and with which I need support and 'resonance', however.

But in the interest of the common courtesy of answering the questions of your previous post:

I don't really 'get' how your dog bite analogy fits with your situation. I get how an individual bitten once by a dog, could become terrified of all dogs with a 'get it away!' reaction. Is that what happened with you, and Americans? Was one American hurtful towards you, so you now have that 'get it away!' reaction to all Americans?

Or is it at the other end of the spectrum - have all Americans hurt you? (have you been bitten by every dog you've ever come across?). There's a vast difference in these two scenarios.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. That has been the response every "average", which is to say "non-ethnic" American (though that term is now in decline or even considered politically incorrect, I realize). The attitude is simply--"Well, why aren't you with your kind, then?"--but always said confrontationally.

In other words, I'm not making a blanket statement aimed at "All Americans"--and just saying "it's hopeless here, entirely-they are all my instant natural enemies, requiring me to be a permanent shut in as long as I'm in the country".

That would be a definite sign of an inherently skewed perspective, I realize--one based in paranoia and so destined to result in negative outcome by its very nature, as such a one in essence "needs" the world to confirm his outlook in order to reinforce his "me against the world" attitude as a means of retaining a sense of specialness, in a kind of "identity-in-martyrdom".

When I lived on the east-coast, for example, it was much less a problem, as I mentioned. And I have had very close friends, and committed relationships--they;ve all been with first or second generation Americans with roots of identification still firmly planted in their "old-world" culture.

I still have to wonder whether several hostile and hurtful individuals are colouring your judgement of a whole race of people. The only reason I question it is because you make such complete statements about all Americans
People don't let down their barriers to someone they immediately sense "has something wrong with them", which is what all Americans think of me.

By "Americans" I should have made myself more clear: as I mentioned above, I'm referring to Americans not of some other ethnic background. All of my experiences with every individual a "Citizen of the U.S.", alone, has not resulted in this conflict.

But this is, as you rightly stated, is still off topic, so I'll end any such discussion at this point.

As I said, my sexual abuse is a very significant factor in my life, to this day. I've previously only been addressing specific questions posed to me in others responses.

I don't say that to dismiss the sexual abuse, but until you find a place to live where you feel you can be yourself, and live relatively stress free, I don't know that you would make much progress in trying to process your trauma.

Thank you for your honesty. You may well be right, but this seems a great deal like rejection, to me, despite its being couched in positive terms. I suppose I should thank you, at least, for that courtesy.


If you want to discuss your sexual abuse, then we will happily try our best to help you. I haven't walked in your shoes, I don't understand your culture, or the American culture. I can only try to offer my best thoughts about those situation. But lets get this back to the point - sexual abuse. How does that affect your life?


While you've gone on to state that you will happily try your best to help with my issues relating to sexual abuse, having previously stated that you don't think I would make much progress at this time, it is difficult not to see your final assurance as rather backhanded.

If, as you previously state, you don not believe as an administrator of the forum that I would make much progress processing my trauma, as you have said, I can take a hint, in however polite of terms it may be phrased.

Seeing as it originated from an administrator of the forum, I'm forced to see it as representative of the attitude of the forum, as a whole.

I'll pursue support for my issues related to sexual abuse elsewhere.

Thank you, again, for your kindness and support to date.
 
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@Brucielucy
I am sorry Promicarus, but this made me laugh. I was bitten by a dog when I was about 3. I have always known it was not the dog's fault - it went after a fly that had landed on my leg. Anyway, I still have the scar to show for it, and was terrified of dogs thereafter.( I am not 6 ft though)

However since I started therapy, that is one of the things that has changed. It is not as if the dog bite was in any way connected to my abuse, but it is another fear I have been able to tackle head on. I now touch other people's dogs. I have taken my friend's dog for walks. We have even spoken of getting a dog ourselves in the future, as Rory would very much like to. Before therapy I would not have even considered it.I have completely changed in ways I would never have thought possible.
I have visited for a holiday but never had therapy there. A holiday does not give you a realistic outlook on society and culture, so I cannot comment on that. However I do know that even in the UK there are a vast array of therapists with different opinions and very different modes of practice.There are also therapists from many cultures, religions and other backgrounds to reflect the society we live in.

I appreciate your point, regarding the importance of therapy, and its ability to make a difference even in such a fundamental fear.
But did you start your therapy with a dog as your therapist?

You see my point. All I'm saying is that I need something other than an American as a therapist if I'm to even make a beginning of trusting, as I mentioned-nothing more.

If your aim is to go to Mexico and seek therapy there then I hope that works out for you. On the other hand, is it possible to access therapy in Mexico while you are still in America? I don't know the logistics, but I am thinking of telephone/skype/internet therapy. In my opinion these would always be second best, but surely better than nothing?

You're absolutely right. I haven't looked into this. It's next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion--it is most certainly better than nothing, and there's no question that I do need something, and better sooner than later.

You've been so supportive, and remained so helpful and interested in my case. I don't know how to thank you.

However it's been made clear to me by Administration that I might be more welcome elsewhere, so at this time I'll begin that search.

Please take care, and again, thank you so much for your support. It really has made a difference these last few days.
 
[DLMURL="http://www.mysexualabuse.com/members/rightkindofme.1214/"]@rightkindofme[/DLMURL]

I think that saying that all therapists from a country are the same is kind of like saying that all men are rapists. Uhm... demonstrably not.

I must have misstated myself. That is not really what I meant at all. I only meant that I can't relate to the average American at all, or them to me, due to my cultural background. It's common to seek out others for therapy who have the same cultural frame of reference, after all. Why wouldn't one?

Do you know much about different schools of psychotherapy? In particular I work best with Harm Reduction Specialists.

I do know quite a bit--but I must admit I'm not familiar with Harm Reduction as a school of thought. I'll definitely look into it. Thanks.

Thank you for your support, interest, and suggestions to date. At this point I will be seeking support elsewhere, as it's been made clear to me in one-way-or-another that this would be preferred. Again, thank you.
 
@Promicarus you have misinterpreted what I said. It certainly wasn't rejection. Nor should anything I say be taken as representative of a whole group of people. Just because I am an administrator of the forum, doesn't make my opinion right or wrong, nor does it make my thoughts any more valid than anyone else's. I'm just a survivor of sexual abuse like everyone else here, and simply try to pass on what I've learnt on my journey, and encourage others to explore possible ways to try to move forwards and improve their lives.

I said, "I don't know that you would make much progress in trying to process your trauma". 'I don't know' being the important words. I don't know whether you would need to deal with other issues before dealing with your trauma. I didn't say you couldn't or you wouldn't, I said that I don't know. I didn't say you shouldn't try. I do know that to get the best results with trauma therapy, it is better to have stability, and support in one's life, which was the context in which I said the above. I could be wrong, I could be right - I don't know. It's just one thought, that I believe you have misinterpreted, and made bigger than it is.

We're not all going to agree on everything. The thing with any forum, where people are just stating opinions, not facts, is that you take and use what you want to and leave or ignore the rest, or discuss and debate it, rather than taking offence and assuming that one sentence out of hundreds means you are being rejected. What's wrong with saying "Thank you for your comments, but I disagree with you", or "I find that offensive. Can you explain further what you mean?".

But instead of asking for clarification, or challenging an opinion you decide that you are being rejected, and that any further comments were backhanded. Not only that, you then proceed to reply to other forum members in this thread and in profile posts, telling them that "it's been made clear to me by Administration that I might be more welcome elsewhere, so at this time I'll begin that search." What utter nonsense.

'Administration' never said any such thing, nor implied it, so don't make Administration out to be the bad guy. By 'Administration', do you mean me? Or do you mean all of the administration team? (You see, asking for clarification). If you are talking about me, why not refer to me by name, rather than by label?

If you are talking about me, I welcomed you to the forum and spent a lot of time replying to your posts, as did others. Trust me, if you weren't welcome on the forum, then I wouldn't have wasted my time replying to you. If I wanted you gone, I could have simply banned you. If I didn't continue to welcome you, why would I encourage more engagement from you by asking the question "sexual abuse. How does that affect your life?"?

Making assumptions is often a mistake, because you can end up with an idea in your head that simply isn't true. Then when you passed that untrue assumption on to others as a fact, it has become a lie.

You are welcome on this forum, however 'trolling' the forum with lies about Administration puts you very close to the line indeed. Drop the nonsense and stay, or leave - the choice is yours.
 
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