How do you define bravery as opposed to cowardice?

[joeylittle]

@Never_falter - I think it's difficult to come to an agreement over the meaning of words, over the internet. And it's especially difficult when doing so across different primary languages.

That vets who refuse to get help, knowing that they have a problem, and rather push the burden of their symptoms off onto other people to shoulder for them are cowards... The simple act of putting out a sign does not make anyone a coward... however it does reinforce the victim mentality (which is different than being a coward)

This, that Florian said, is a pretty clear example. The fact that you asked him for an example in your next post makes me think that you and he might be talking across the language divide.

I think vets cannot be cowards, because cowards do not join the military. Would be a pretty stupid thing for a coward to do.

This is a big generalization, in the US. I can't speak for whether it's a generalization in your country, probably only a vet from where you are, could.

I would say that cowardice must always have a person hurt by the cowardice or it is just caution or vigilance. Bravery on the other hand must always have a person benefitting from the bravery or it is just foolhardiness.

This way of reasoning is hard to discuss because it's not simply defining the word, but defining the word though it's effect. It's backwards to how a big chunk of the english language works. It's totally logical to how many european languages work, and that's how we can end up talking at cross-purposes, here.

Cowardice will not always result in a person getting hurt. It's only true that in order for there to be cowardice, there needs to be something to be afraid of.

Bravery doesn't always result in someone benefitting. Again, the thing required for bavery to be exhibited is, something that can be feared.

Fear is just fear.
The context of the situation is what creates any objective understanding of the danger.
But even understanding the danger is contextual...

Bottom line: discussing opinions about what is or is not bravery or cowardice is always going to need to be opinion; personal opinion - ideally, personal experience, because that's what we are here to share with each other.

So, you're not the sufferer, you're the supporter. And you're not a vet, your husband is. You're a person, and a member of this community, so of course you can start threads to discuss anything. But please, the next time there's confusion about the nitty-gritty meaning of words, can you remember that it's easy to have misunderstandings based on language, and not start threads just to prove another member wrong in their use of words?

(Which it seems like you did, here).

PTSD. Experience. Not semantics of language in translation. I'm sorry it's a predominantly english-language board, but it is. It's helpful for you to remember that, and post accordingly.

OK, back to topic. Questions, help-ticket.

 

[anthony]

The simple act of putting out a sign does not make anyone a coward... however it does reinforce the victim mentality (which is different than being a coward)

As a combat veteran -- agree. It reinforces the victim mentality vs facing the issue and resolving the underlying problem. Which can be resolved and the issue alleviated.

Do I blame the people that ran? No! This is the fog of war. I would call their actions cowardice though. And the actions of the men who closed with and engaged the enemy? Their actions were "brave".

Here's the thing, from my view. Your view is your view, and its neither right nor wrong. I have a different view and obviously I would need to know the thoughts from each person who remained down (cowardice by your words) or advanced (brave by your words).

Did those who remained in cover see the tactical situation differently? Did they accept the loss of a man forward for the overall mission? Bravery and stupidity can go hand in hand. Both can lead to epic success and epic failure. Obviously until done, you don't know which is which. Think back to Gallipoli, where idiotic commanders thought sending thousands of men, line after line, would win the war. Yet they were mowed down by machine guns and got nowhere near the enemy. So they did it again. Epic failure. Epic idiocy. Then you have moments where the opposite is true, and epic success was the outcome.

I think cowardice has to be based on a person to person view, from talking to each who is believed to be cowardice. Now if each who did so admits they were scared, just couldn't get up and fight... yes, cowardice. If someone thought the tactical situation was not the best and was waiting for a better method... maybe a little smarter vs cowardice, but failed in the work as a team aspect which is very much military in itself.

There is a pattern to bravery medals, in that most countries award them to those who died in the process of such bravery. Bravery or stupidity? Back to whether it was a success or failure for said bravery.

Just my personal opinion though.

 

[Virtues]

@anthony very insightful and definitely challenges the way I view the situation. Obviously I'm down in it, so it's kind of hard to see things from a different perspective. This is one of the things I'm working on in therapy, you just gave me some very helpful feedback. I will dissect this.

 

[Freida]

This is what I've been told...
Cowardice is running from doing the things you fear
Bravery is being afraid -- and doing it anyway

 

[Never_falter2]

Have to be quick, because I have to go to a charity event again today *sigh*, pretty sick and tired off it but I am to politically correct and to much of a coward *lol* to say so. Totally do not agree with @Freida that feeling the fear and doing it anyway is bravery could also be: idiotic.

To give an example. Riding with my bike, thought I should go down a hill (off-road), looked like great fun, feeled the fear, loved feeling the fear, thought that taking the gamble would be much fun, feeled the blood rushing trough my veins, thought „Yeaaaaaahhhh“ and then thought „OMG, me idiot“ because I realized I was going to fall and could not stop it... and well that is just what happened.

Actually both me and my Vet have several stories like this to tell. We have a son, soon to be six, who lives by the motto: no risk, no fun... we have other kids too, but he is the worst.

As a mum I hate it... no and I do not think he is a hero.

Will comment on Vets, fireworks and no-fireworks signs later.

 

[barefoot]

At a general level, I pretty much view bravery/courage the same way as @Freida and some others here. Bravery/courage isn’t about never feeling afraid...it’s about feeling the fear and doing it anyway...not letting your fear get in the driving seat or being ruled by it in a way that becomes crippling.

@Never_falter - the example you just gave about riding your bike very fast down-hill and then you lost control and couldn’t stop safely...you don’t mention that you felt afraid to begin with. Did you feel fearful?

If not, your example isn’t about bravery/cowardice, in my opinion.
For me, you can’t really be brave/courageous if there’s no fear?

It would then be more about assessing risk and making a judgement.

Poor judgement in a risk assessment may produce a negative outcome (eg a bad, painful fall off a bike) and the action may or may not have been brave. Perhaps the person showed courage to do whatever they did - if they were facing their fear. And/or perhaps they made an uwnwise decision that was unnecessarily risky and showed poor judgement.

And I agree with those who’ve said that cowardice/bravery isn’t about whether or not someone benefits. Sometimes someone may benefit or not from either. But I don’t see that that’s how you can measure either concept.

We can all give definitions or talk about examples but with this sort of thing I think it often comes down to the individual person, circumstances and situation. Context is important, which makes a general discussion quite difficult because it’s not really about defining words, it’s about exploring concepts.

 

[ILoveLife]

I really don't see not doing something out of fear as cowardice. Most of the time it's self preservation.

I don't think it's that black and white to begin with.

You can be both a coward and a courageous person at the same time.
Like, once I stood over a cliff to watch the rock formations down there. It was stupid, courageous but I was also a coward because I backed out?
Or driving. I shouldn't drive, it's self preservation and protection of others, I have no reflexes. I went to get my drivers license anyway, it was stupid and dangerous, I was a coward because I put others and myself in danger just so I could be courageous and expose myself to one of my biggest anxieties...

 

[Mach123]

We stayed married. (So far, we might get divorced this weekend) We have 2 adult daughters with severe Autism and four "typical" adult children. We were prisoners for 10 years with one of the Autistic girls she was so violent. We're poor. I was 'sick.' We fought like cats and dogs. We stayed with our parents while they died. We both made a lot of mistakes.
"But a tear to a Chinese man he'll tell you of the sadness and sorrow and the love of a man and a woman".

 

[Virtues]

Context is important

THIS!!!! If more people would understand this, we wouldn't even be having a difference in opinions here.

 

[Virtues]

@Never_falter at your request I'm writing you back in this thread... please read this thread and everyone's reply... I have made myself explicitly clear with examples in this thread. I wish you all would stop twisting my words...

 

[Never_falter2]

I really do not think I am twisting your words. I might have gotten you wrong, but I am not twisting your words on purpose.
Actually I am a bit sad now because I always liked your posts... I read far more than I write here... and because I feel you said mean things about my vet who is a very brave man but nevertheless does not like fireworks and needs helps with some things... and I really do think none of us is perfect... and I wish you would take it back what you said about victim mentality of people having the no-fireworks sign because we do not know how tough they are and how hard they work on themselves when it comes to other things (and we do not even have such a sign, they are really uncommon in our country).

 

[Virtues]

I think you are internalizing this. I wasn't talking about your vet. I simply made a statement that if a vet knows they have problems and refuses to work on them and instead pushes the responsibility for managing their symptoms on other people that this is cowardice. If your vet is not doing this then this doesn't apply to you. From what you've told me your vet is working on himself so this doesn't even apply to you. If the shoe fits wear it; if it doesn't fit then this is non-applicable.