How to break shame cycle re my role in csa

[beaneeboo]

i believe this the motivating force between my use of psychobabble as a deflection tool. more and more i believe it is counter-productive. over the course of "taming my lions," i give myself creative liberty in personifying them in whatever fashion suits my healing needs. as i read about your dad's partner, i wondered if you should train her to cavort in tutus and bozo slippers. keep whip and chair handy.

Yes, tutus and bozo slippers, whip and chair handy... brilliant... she needs to be lower than me... and she also needs humiliating, as she liked do to me, as a form of entertainment... maybe she needs to jump through the ring a few times...

this use of personification is not about legally defensible accuracy. it is about healing the wounds of a child's broken heart.

Thank you for offering this perspective...I can see how building a world where they are kept under my control in whatever creative way I see fit could provide immense relief and pleasure...

 

[No More]

Wow. I've never seen it in this light. I'll have to think about this some more... so you mean the orgasm was wrong because of the circumstances it happened in, and it was wrong because it was in an abusive dynamic?

Ah no, I mean it can be reduced to stimulus -> output. The body reacts to stimuli, regardless of the intention or enjoyment behind them. Just like someone doesn’t enjoy having their hand clamped round an electric wire, it happened anyway even though the intention was protection. There doesn’t necessarily need to be any sort of mental enjoyment whatsoever for orgasm or lubrication to happen.

sorry that's caused you difficulty ... if you feel like telling more I'd be genuinely interested. This is not a topic which I've ever discussed with anyone. I'm clueless. But... please don't if its going to bring up too much and cause any negative reaction...

Sure I can try and discuss if you think it might be of some help to you - I don’t want to derail the topic of your thread though!

 

[beaneeboo]

Ah no, I mean it can be reduced to stimulus -> output. The body reacts to stimuli, regardless of the intention or enjoyment behind them. Just like someone doesn’t enjoy having their hand clamped round an electric wire, it happened anyway even though the intention was protection. There doesn’t necessarily need to be any sort of mental enjoyment whatsoever for orgasm or lubrication to happen.

Ah ok thanks for clarifying.. yes that makes sense...

Sure I can try and discuss if you think it might be of some help to you - I don’t want to derail the topic of your thread though!

No not at all..I don't see that as derailing... it's all the same thing... discussing these things is important to see how we're not alone...

If you feel comfortable only though..

 

[ninja]

But the thing that's different is he wasn't 100% responsible in that dynamic because he was a child too.

Maybe the question to ask here is where, then, does the remainder of the responsibility go? Because right now it seems like it's getting put on you, which isn't right.

So, where else should it go? Maybe your parents are partially responsible. Maybe the other child's parents are partially responsible. I can imagine that this might be hard to get on board with because if none of the parents knew what was happening, how could they be responsible? I get that, I really really do, but maybe the black and white clear cut thing here is that parents just are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of their children. They are responsible for taking an interest in their kids, noticing when things seem off, asking about what they got up to with their friends, building a loving, trusting, and safe relationship (which is not to be confused with never messing up).

This is sticky stuff. I haven't sorted it out and still find myself getting lost in these sorts of shame spirals. They are horrible.
With you

 

[beaneeboo]

Maybe the question to ask here is where, then, does the remainder of the responsibility go? Because right now it seems like it's getting put on you, which isn't right.

Ok

So, where else should it go? Maybe your parents are partially responsible. Maybe the other child's parents are partially responsible. I can imagine that this might be hard to get on board with because if none of the parents knew what was happening, how could they be responsible? I get that, I really really do, but maybe the black and white clear cut thing here is that parents just are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of their children. They are responsible for taking an interest in their kids, noticing when things seem off, asking about what they got up to with their friends, building a loving, trusting, and safe relationship (which is not to be confused with never messing up).

I have thought about this before with a former T. That was her take on it as well. I found it hard to reason that my parents were at fault. My dad lived somewhere completely different at the time. Though given his track record as a father , if he'd have lived with us at the time, it would have made zero difference. And my mum, well yes, I can see from an outside pov some may hold her accountable partially. I do believe, in the one hand, i have a good relationship with my mum. Despite her not knowing about any of my abuse. But the other side of my relationship with her is that there's so much she didn't know about me growing up. And didn't inquire about. Which made keeping secrets about all the abuse quite easy. But she was completely clueless. It's not she didn't care - she wasn't intentionally ignoringor being disinterested. . She just didn't suspect anything from anyone, at any point. And that made these situations easier to happen I guess. I can be angry at her ignorance.

I think the boy's parents can take a portion of blame. Someone somewhere had shown him or involved him at the very very least porn. He knew too much. He wouldn't have known or just naturally have experimented these things. If it wasn't his parents, they should have been on it enough to know some one was. And if the boy was sexually abuse himself, then obviously a portion of that blame goes onto them.

Thanks actually @ninja ...I think it's helpful thinking about it in these terms because there are a number of people who, despite not being present or knowing what was happening, can take on some of that responsibilityin my head rather than it being mostly on me...

This is sticky stuff. I haven't sorted it out and still find myself getting lost in these sorts of shame spirals. They are horrible.
With you

I know you understand and I'm sorry you do. It really helps to hear from you about it knowing your experiences. It's really helpful - I'm grateful for your input...

Take care of yourself now

 

[scout86]

Do you think it's normal for 2 x 8/9/10/11/12 year olds to be having sex with each other?

Especially at the lower end of that, actually having intercourse, it would make me wonder where it was coming from. Curiosity is one thing, but curiosity can be inspired by normal things and by.......things that shouldn't be happening.(?) So my own tendency wouldn't be to think of it as "normal".

Someone somewhere had shown him or involved him at the very very least porn.

Something like that. I suppose it's gotten a lot easier for kids to access that kind of thing these days, whether their parents know it or not. Another thing I can't help but think, though, is that someone was supposed to teach him that other people don't exist for your amusement. They have value and rights of their own. You don't coerce them, you don't trick them, you don't use them. It sounds to me like he had an attitude that would make him a problem, even if the interest at the time hadn't been sex.

 

[beaneeboo]

Especially at the lower end of that, actually having intercourse, it would make me wonder where it was coming from. Curiosity is one thing, but curiosity can be inspired by normal things and by.......things that shouldn't be happening.(?) So my own tendency wouldn't be to think of it as "normal".

Thanks @scout86 ... interesting to hear different people's views... I'm in agreement that it's not normal.

I'm pretty set that, for kids of any of those ages I gave, it isn't normal to be having sex with each other and that if they are, there's been a crack in either or both of their up bringing to allow that to happen. (I guess this touches a bit about what @ninja was saying about responsibility etc).

I don't think an 8 or a 12 year old has the necessary emotional skills to handle the intimacy (on any level) which comes from such a relationship, even if that relationship isn't 'abusive'. I also think curiosity is normal (at all of these ages) and some sexual exploration is also natural between 2 kids who want to do that... (kissing, showing, touching maybe)....but only for the thrill and excitement of it (not sexual excitement) and the want to explore...

I don't think it's normal for kids at these young ages to be aiming to get continual sexual stimulation (ie genital stimulation) / gratification from each other or for themselves (perhaps at 12 that could the case for a very few but in general in Western culture I'd say it's still very early). And for me 12 is still too young for sex. Period.

My son is 12. He can barely look at girls or talk to them, let alone have the motivation to be sexual with them. He has friends who have girlfriends. But it's as innocent as going to Starbucks and getting a drink together, possibly holding hands. They break up every 2 weeks and move onto the next. For me, watching them reminds me it wasn't normal to have someone when I was 9/10/11 who wanted to stimulate my genitals and try to insert themselves inside me over and over. Obsessively. And it wasn't normal for me to know how to orgasm as a result of what he was doing to me. Normal that it happened mechanically maybe. But not emotionally.

Even if he genuinely thought it would be awesome for both of us, he wasn't old enough to make that decision - becausehe would have been very wrong. And if there had been adults involved driving that decision, I would also see that as abuse.

Something like that. I suppose it's gotten a lot easier for kids to access that kind of thing these days, whether their parents know it or not.

Sadly... this is very true...

Another thing I can't help but think, though, is that someone was supposed to teach him that other people don't exist for your amusement. They have value and rights of their own. You don't coerce them, you don't trick them, you don't use them.

Yes exactly. This is something which needs to be taught about sex and intimacy. Which at those ages, again, is maybe too young for some children to work out for themselves. He was doing everything in secret. He had learned that being sexual needed to be kept hidden. That it was wrong in some way. The fact he coerced me, knew what to say, then turned on me with threats when I wanted to end it, to me speaks of him mirroring an abusive dynamic he himself was experiencing. So I think it was more than him not being taught basic human relationship respect. Though I'll never know.

It sounds to me like he had an attitude that would make him a problem, even if the interest at the time hadn't been sex.

I'm intrigued as to how he's turned out...

He moved away shortly after the abuse stopped. I have no idea where he is in this world. If he ever thinks about what he did. If he cares. If he's proud of it. Or if he regrets any of it now he's an adult. Or whether he needed therapy himself for any potential abuse he experienced.

 

[scout86]

I don't think an 8 or a 12 year old has the necessary emotional skills to handle the intimacy (on any level)

I suppose there might be exceptions, but I tend to agree with you. But I think it's also true that those who lack the maturity to navigate those kinds of relationships also, usually, don't know what they don't know. In other words, they tend to think they're plenty mature enough, even if they aren't. (Maybe especially if they aren't.)

I'd like to add that I'm pretty impressed with the way you're working your way through this. It's complicated and had stuff.

 

[sidptitala]

The one thing I can't get out of my head atm (the thing this part is shouting at me for an answer about) is the fact that I orgasmed whilst being 'on top'
ally a level of intrigue (10/10 shame saying this) of what these bodily sensations were

t was so confusing to experience orgasm in among disgust, shame, fear. I know from my adult pov it's a natural bodily reaction which I couldn't have helped. But part of me says I could have helped it and I did enjoy it. And this feeds alot of my shame story.

Maybe it helps to ask what is your shame protecting you from? An older and more powerful child was using you sexually, and you likely didn't have the power to refuse or it depended totally on his preferences. If you had protested, and he didn't want to stop, could you have ensured he did? By orgasming and participating you protect yourself from having to potentially experience being violently overpowered. That's a really wise decision that, on a reptilian level, your body made for you. Because that is the situation you were in- what happened to you was totally up to him, what he wanted to do, what satisfied him. Your body avoided making him angry by giving him what he wanted. Not being able to protect yourself is overwhelming information about how vulnerable you are- knowing that can be devastating until you are genuinely safe from the threat.

You did the very best you could to handle this realities:

I don't think I did a lot of searching / instigating with the cocsa (I remember a few occasions). But equally I wasn't able to stop it for a long time and I beat myself up for that. I feel really stupid i didn't see it for what it was and after he wouldn't listen to 'no' why I couldn't just stop him coming to my house. I do feel complicit in it perhaps more than the adult abuse. I was petrified of getting pregnant and still I let it happen

Regardless of the fact he was a child, it was still sexual abuse to me. It was secret, he tricked me into it, I wasn't allowed to tell anyone, I was scared, i was afraid of getting pregnant, he threatened to tell everyone how disgusting i was etc.

t isn't the sex that's the problem. It's the coercion, the secrecy, and the basic idea of using another person (or being used by another person) rather than a mutually caring situation.

It's also kind of what makes a perpetrator a perpetrator. They know the local cultural rules too and they know they're violating them.

 

[beaneeboo]

I suppose there might be exceptions, but I tend to agree with you. But I think it's also true that those who lack the maturity to navigate those kinds of relationships also, usually, don't know what they don't know. In other words, they tend to think they're plenty mature enough, even if they aren't. (Maybe especially if they aren't.)

Yeah absolutely and imo what you've said here applies to all 8-12 year olds...

I'd like to add that I'm pretty impressed with the way you're working your way through this. It's complicated and had stuff.

Thank you @scout86 that means alot... sometimes going through stuff so openly on posts (which I'm doing more and more) feels a bit like shooting myself in the foot, for the feelings it stirs up and the opportunity for others to write something which triggers a difficult reaction... but I think I'm at a point in my journey where some part of me is up for taking it on... it's REALLY hard and has triggered some pretty deep shame for me, but with support from people here it's so far been over all a good thing to do

 

[beaneeboo]

Thanks @sidptitala ...

Maybe it helps to ask what is your shame protecting you from?

this is a good question and it's one I've pondered a few times without really fully understanding it...I do see that it doesn't serve me in many ways but there is a part of me which obviously feels it's necessary to hold on to... and I haven't totally understood why. Gets back to my beginning posts though - maybe the cognitive side of me who is talking through all this will never get to the side of me which experiences the shame - because they are 2 different parts of the brain...

An older and more powerful child was using you sexually, and you likely didn't have the power to refuse or it depended totally on his preferences.

This is a packed sentence for me! This is where things are very sticky in my experience- less clear cut. This boy was not significantly older than me. I don't know exactly how old he was but I do know i was prepubescent and he wasn't. I've struggled seeing a power differential between us historically because he never physically forced me. The situation i was in was in a psychological hold. He coerced me into thinking this was something I should want to do with him. So I believed I was going into it with him voluntarily - even though I wasn't sure what that meant because I didn't know what I was saying yes to. By the time I was in it, I had no idea that I could say no. I guess staying silent, not being so actively involved was comfortable for him. He got the green light to do it because I didn't say no.

This is where alot of my shame comes from because I didn't say no initially when he started trying to purposefully stimulate me. No wasn't a concept in my head. I didn't know I could say no. It literally wasn't an option. Didn't exist. Even feeling sick with it. Even when I couldn't breathe properly under him. But when things progressed, I became so excruciatingly worried about becoming pregnant, and that our secret would come out, that i started vocalising my worries. Hoping he would see that as enough to stop. But it became clear he didn't. So he kept on going until it became unbearable for me and I started saying I thought we should stop. Even at this point he never physically forced me to continue. But he never stopped. I don't think there was ever conversations about 'do you want to?' at this point. It was purely a repetitive routine which I wanted to get out of and he didn't stop knowing that.

And that's where alot of my shame takes hold. After so long of him doing this, I should have stopped him long before. I should have had a voice and used it. But there was nothing there. But I felt like i allowed it to happen. It took a long time for me to weigh up the worry of getting pregnant over saying no to him (something that I thought was not an option) and he started threatening me - not with physical force but by shaming me in front of everyone. By telling everyone what awful things I'd done with him and how disgusting I was. For him, telling people would be a trophy moment, one of pride, one which would get him respect from others, where as for me it would highlight how bad and shameful i am.

So even in that complicated dynamic, there was no physical violence. But there didn't need to be. He had me in a psychological hold which took a while to develop.

So going back to what you said in that quote, I didn't have the power to refuse it and it depended completely on his preferences.

If you had protested, and he didn't want to stop, could you have ensured he did?

I did protest and he didn't stop. But I didn't protest physically ... Ifeel so stupid for this. But it wasn't an option in my head.

. Not being able to protect yourself is overwhelming information about how vulnerable you are- knowing that can be devastating until you are genuinely safe from the threat.

You did the very best you could to handle this realities:

Thank you for your support @sidptitala

 

[scout86]

No wasn't a concept in my head. I didn't know I could say no.

I think this is important, don't overlook it as a fact. How is a kid SUPPOSED to know that "no" is an option? It's not something we're exactly born knowing, is it? I'm not sure we spend enough time teaching kids about the uses (good and bad) of the concept of "no". Sounds to me like you went into this without this important bit of knowledge that helps people navigate relationships.

I have a hunch telling him "no", more than you did, won't have worked because it probably wasn't a concept he really accepted as applying to him. Maybe that's all it would have taken for him to go off and look for another victim, maybe not.) As far as physically forcing him to stop..... I don't know how he would have reacted to that,do you? Could you have beaten him in a fight? (Probably not.) The instinctive reaction of a smaller critter being coerced by a larger critter usually isn't "fight" because there's no coming back from that. (You can't punch someone and then tell them "oops, I did mean to hit you", that ship has sailed.) As the smaller critter in a live/death encounter, you are more likely to succeed with "flee, fawn, or freeze" than you are with "fight". You might succeed with "fight" too, but that's going to involve some luck and depends on the reaction of the person you're dealing with. (Something you probably lacked the experience to evaluate.) I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think there was anything wrong with how you handled it. Especially not at the age you were. I suppose we'd all like to handle everything heroically but that's not realistic, is it? And we live in the real world.