Other I am not human!

[joeylittle]

So in short, there's really nothing wrong with you, @Multitudes . Like @Iriseen said... you're human-plus.

Alienation is the price we pay for being individuals in a conformist society, and PTSD is how brains cope with having to coexist with that conformist society.

I'm always curious when I see people respond to PTSD in this way.

To me, it's just another kind of black-and-white thinking, or maybe all-or-nothing. Coping with the fact that trauma creates damage by instead viewing the damage as proof of exceptionalism, in some way.

@Multitudes - I have trouble believing that I'm a person. I do think I'm a human being, but I don't see my 'self' as being...a thing, I guess. I see other human beings as people. I have a really hard time explaining it, and I'm totally aware that it's really just a negative core belief. But it can be painful to live with, and I wish I didn't see myself as not-a-person.

@Cyberluddite - to me, alienation is one of the most horrible things about not being a person. I do believe that it is inherent in human nature to want to connect to something or someone. Even a self-professed and highly content hermit is valuing their connection to their solitude. But the feeling of being on the outside of things, of not belonging with the rest of humanity...that's a whole bunch of identity stuff that is part of what makes life most unlivable, for me.

I think the truth is, trauma changes people. Those changes can be viewed as positive sometimes, negative other times; it all depends on what lens you are using to look at them. But with the most neutral lens in place it's hard to say that trauma is beneficial because it creates some kind of 'human-plus' set of attributes. Really, it just exposes one to the more extreme ends of the human experience. It's very hard to describe what it's like to be near death, or in extreme violence, or any of the other PTSD-grade traumas...but once you've lived those things, you can't forget them. What a trauma survivor is left with, after - the ways they have been changed - those things aren't necessarily 'good'. And they can lead to having a disorder, which by definition means, a kind of hampered functionality.

Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent, and more observational than anything else. Just stuff that's been on my mind lately.

 

[saraemerald]

@saraemerald, I can barely imagine how that must have been for you - I know, and...

I was stuck in that cult because I was born into it and when I was a teen, I believed it was true so I stayed. Then I saw a lot of hypocrisy, was tired of being strong, temporarily ruined my life and left. Never going back. And now of course I am shunned by just about every family and friend I ever grew up with.
But yes. I have suffered rejection as a child because I came from a weird family and because I was in the cult. Not fun. It's hard to work through all that but possible.

 

[Fiadh]

But with the most neutral lens in place it's hard to say that trauma is beneficial because it creates some kind of 'human-plus' set of attributes. Really, it just exposes one to the more extreme ends of the human experience. It's very hard to describe what it's like to be near death, or in extreme violence, or any of the other PTSD-grade traumas...but once you've lived those things, you can't forget them. What a trauma survivor is left with, after - the ways they have been changed - those things aren't necessarily 'good'. And they can lead to having a disorder, which by definition means, a kind of hampered functionality

When I responded initially to this post it wasn't about trauma in my mind, I was attempting to reassure on an aspergers front that the skills you may lack- you will give back in another area, hence the stupid term human-plus (just made it up).

But on a trauma front no what is taken from you is not good, what you are given, symptom wise, is also not good. Nothing could have prepared me for how my trauma would have effected me and still does to this day, and no nothing 'human-plus' about that.

 

[Multitudes]

I think the truth is, trauma changes people.

@joeylittle, I agree with what you say here and, speaking for myself, there is no question that I am severely hampered socially and, currently, functionally by my grab bag of issues.

Though I think @Cyberluddite also has a good point - the flip side of the coin, if you like.
I tried to achieve the whole 'Happy Nuclear Family' thing while married to a narcissist and juggling a gamut of personal issues I hadn't even begun to fathom - I worked hard and was very successful.. till some fuse in my head popped.
A breakdown was inevitable - I can see that, looking back - but I've finally had the time and peace to pick all that crazy stuff apart and figure myself out.
I'd have to say that that breakdown was the best thing to happen to me.. I know who I am now and, while I still have a way to go, I'm beginning to like myself as a person for the first time in my life.

My alienness derives from a total lack of self worth and validation - from your answer to my original question:

I do think I'm a human being, but I don't see my 'self' as being...a thing

I wonder if this is not rather similar.. why would you see yourself as a 'Person' if (to make an assumption) your perception, at a formative age, was that no-one else (role models?) did.

Yes, actually, I do know folks on the spectrum

@Hope4Now, I should have thought a little more on my sweeping, "Heart on sleeve" statement before I posted, as you are quite right. I've met, and talked online with so many Aspies who all come across in different ways - from the logical, to the emotive, and even the rare dishonest and socio/psychopathic.

Asperger's Syndrome Subtypes | Autism

This site offers a decent set of subcategories, though I think there is also a lot of crossover between them. Additionally, neurodiverse traits tend to cluster, so other conditions may appear in the mix.. and that's before considering the effects trauma might have.

Something I have noticed about Autism research - it's mostly performed by clinicians who, I feel, have a tendency to interpret the behavior they're studying through their own neurotypical filters, and theories may be taken as gospel to the point of becoming diagnostic criteria.
Baron-Cohen's 'Extreme Male Brain Theory' comes to mind, a good part of the reason, I understand, that Aspies are considered to lack empathy.

How excellent that now so many years later we are free to get to know each other and support each other in removing the bad, toxic labels we used to define ourselves with.

@Rain, thank you so much for your kind words, I am genuinely touched. Everything you have said here is the reason I sought a forum like this in the first place.
A while ago I found another site, with a similarly supportive, community atmosphere, and gained a tremendous amount of self-knowledge and confidence.. things changed, though and, while I still lurk occasionally, for some reason I can't bring myself to be as involved as I once was.
I've dipped into a number of places before and since, looking for.. a sense of belonging.. I guess, and it's nice to think that I may finally have found it here.

Thank you for making me feel welcome.

Very thinky and very feely.

@mumstheword, I loved this - it made me smile. I feel I should, perhaps, apologise for metaphorically jumping up and down, pointing at you, and yelling, "Aspie" - when, after awhile, I could recognise traits fairly easily, it became kind of automatic that I'd look for them in everyone. While it surprises me how often I do come across them, I should probably tone down the tendency to want to diagnose the whole population of the planet. :wacky:

 

[Hope4Now]

Hmmm. I've been chewing on this. Will attempt to clarify my post to which you were responding. This is a long kind of arcane post, so ignore if you choose.

You've made a fair distinction between the <instinctive requirement> of connection for basic survival (Nature), and the <experiential realisation> of finding ones-self isolated due to interactive stressors (Nurture).
I may be inclined to disagree with your placement and put neurodivergents within the Nature category, as they tend to differ by a number of <genetic> markers and so have little option but to be who their neurology makes them.
Similarly, <trauma>-induced behavior would fall on the Nurture side as 'learned'.. excepting predisposition, of course.
Your take on this, for the sake of clarifying my understanding, would be welcome.

I think we are all products of mostly-impossible to unwind net of nature and nurture. While it is sometimes important to tease out the differences (to discover the physical etiology of certain issues for, say, medical research), I generally believe this kind of binary thinking is not always useful, even when it comes to genetics, the most "nature" of nature. Many times it is only through "nurture" that certain of these genes gets turned on and turns into something.

I think (?) by your term "neurodivergents" in the context of the post, you are referring to people diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum? Yes, it seems they do differ by "nature." Though the sequelae of that "nature" (being misunderstood, marginalized, bullied, etc.) is mediated by "nurture" in daily life, so how the person feels and what their life experience is a woven web of both.

In my original post on this topic, I said I wondered whether all people would feel a profound sense of alienation if they took the time/had the capacity to contemplate it. I think that is why you said I placed neurodivergents in the Nature category, and where you disagreed with me. I am no expert on ontology (the nature of being), but I've dipped into reading and thinking about it--too much probably--over the years. I have always been profoundly interested in consciousness and individuals' experiences of reality. We human beings (I think we agree that we are those, even if we don't feel we are), are born into a fundamental paradox that plagues us throughout our lives. The paradox is this: we are by Nature wired to be social creatures whose survival depends upon connection with our "tribe"--even neuro-divergent people of varying stripes. And yet, we are born into physical bodies and conscious minds that are completely separate from others' (alien from one another, if you will). Nobody can experience my experience, although nearly all human beings share some sensory experiences in common that are hard-wired (e.g., withdraw from noxious odors, avoidance of physical pain, etc.)

It is only through a capacity for empathy (Nature and Nurture) as well as eons of various kinds of social learning (Nurture) that we learn to mediate our experiences through social communication with our "tribe," and develop a shared meaning to our experience of the world (e.g., there is social agreement that the color we see is red, or yellow). But fundamentally, we are alienated consciousnesses in physical bodies. Some people come into the world wired "differently" and so their social communication experiences don't always line up with the "norm." And, if those people are highly self-conscious (I don't mean the embarrassed kind of self-conscious here), they become keenly aware of their difference from other people. This gets compounded exponentially by the way they are treated by others in their "tribe" because we learn about ourselves, to great extent, from others as our mirrors. I think for people who have highly sensitive and highly active cognitive neural activity, this awareness of "being" and "being other" is constantly in our faces.

When there is too much awareness of this alienation, it can spiral people into various severities of maladaption to life. So, I think most people are able to practice a healthy dissociation from that reality (just as most people practice a healthy dissociation from constant awareness of their own mortality). I suspect that, at least for me as a child, I thought I was an alien (dog) because I bridged the gap of alienation (abuse) by attaching to my dog--though I was aware that I was different even from her. When that connection was stripped away from me, I floundered. The sense that I was not human, nor dog, but an "alien" began to grow in me. But I learned to "fit in," and behave in adaptive ways even though my experiences compounded over time to continually reinforce my "alien" status. It was an adaptive dissociation to my experience (Nurture). If I believed I was "alien," it provided some reason/meaning for my experience of life and allowed me to survive. Without that, I may have died by my own hand or otherwise, or sunken into psychosis (though some would argue that my beliefs were psychotic at that point before my intellect developed enough to recognize the difference between internal and external realities).

So...that's a little bit more of what I was referring to when I posted about the alien experience. Whether it clarifies, or just muddies things, I don't know. Living in my brain is an exhausting experience :banghead:.

 

[Cyberluddite]

I can

I'm always curious when I see people respond to PTSD in this way.

To me, it's just another kind o...

Dave and I had a conversation once, a few years after we both graduated from college. He didn't date much, and I was struggling to start dating. I asked him why it was so difficult for me, when I thought I had everything women said they wanted, yet the worst guys on Earth could do it so easily.

He replied, "When you are comfortable being by yourself, then you'll be able to be with anyone."

That advice has opened my eyes about a lot of things in life, not just relationships. I know I'm not "normal" by society's standards. I know that I can come across as "alien", simply because of how I think, act, and speak.

But while some may think alienation is a bad thing, and in many cases it is, there are times when I observe my fellow humans and realize that perhaps I'm not the alien.

It's all perspective. And self-confidence. But valid points, nonetheless.

 

[Multitudes]

"When you are comfortable being by yourself, then you'll be able to be with anyone."

@Cyberluddite, Dude, I really do understand what you're saying, I really don't want to offend you, and this is so not directed at you, rather at a platitude I've encountered so often from people who just haven't been there.

I've been told this many times, but what has plainly never been understood is that I really am content in my own company, and regularly need to be alone to recharge.
I'm an Aspie, of course that's true - I'm made that way.

However, feeling alone, when I'm so aware of the normalcy of people socialising, having relationships, connecting and sharing, is a separate issue, because these things I will never be able to do, as much as I may want to, as that neural wiring is missing.. but I still yearn for friends and companionship, am still unutterably lonely - still cursed with that wiring and a need for 'Membership of Humanity' I can never fulfill alone - Catch 22, huh. :hug:

Not for lack of trying, believe me, but I must accept that I cannot, even after all the years of so much self-examination and study of Human interaction, initiate any connection, and may have to be content with my own company indefinitely.

<Shrugs> :rolleyes:

I can connect here, though, and I am so grateful for that!

perhaps I'm not the alien.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that perspective and self-confidence are crucial to any attempt to connect, and also that failure does not mean, 'I am a FAILURE'.. But, sticky point - the minority are always the outsiders.. how do we/you deal with that?

'Alien' may be in the eye of the beholder, but the experiencer may have a different take?

 

[Cyberluddite]

I think the best way to "deal with it" is to accept that you are who you are, for better or worse, and to remember that outsiders are far more valuable than the majority.

We take coal for granted, @Multitudes , but we'll fight wars over a diamond. The two are the same thing -- a lump of carbon atoms -- but a diamond is simply coal that found a way to take an unimaginable amount of pressure while remaining true to itself.

The diamond never once thought about how different it was becoming from the coal. It had a goal that was only meant for it, and 1000 years from now the coal will be gone and that diamond will still be admired for having done the impossible.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to stop worrying about being like everyone else. Some people can throw a ball, some people can build a rocketship, some people can write novels, some people can scuba dive.

Einstein couldn't even handle being around his wife, let alone university professors at social soirees. But while humans made him feel like an outsider, especially after Oppenheimer used his calculations to develop the atomic bomb, he learned to connect with people by using his skills to develop quantum physics.

When you finally find that purpose that required being born autistic for, you won't feel like an alien or a minority anymore. You can do things I couldn't begin to imagine possible... shine on, you crazy diamond! :headphone:

P.S. -- my way of socializing is through cooking. It turns out I'm really, really good at it, and humans gotta eat. So just keep in mind that the problem is often simpler to solve than it may seem.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I really am content in my own company, and regularly need to be alone to recharge.
I'm an Aspie, of course that's true - I'm made that way.

However, feeling alone, when I'm so aware of the normalcy of people socialising, having relationships, connecting and sharing, is a separate issue, because these things I will never be able to do, as much as I may want to, as that neural wiring is missing.. but I still yearn for friends and companionship, am still unutterably lonely - still cursed with that wiring and a need for 'Membership of Humanity' I can never fulfill alone

I'm an aspie, and this is the catch-22 I try to explain to people as well. Being alone is energizing, but it doesn't solve the loneliness. If I consistently avoid people, I can ignore the loneliness most of the time. But there are times I must be around people, and then the loneliness surfaces, and causes problems.

If I try to spend time around people in order to solve the loneliness, it's neutral at best, and severely destabilizing at worst because no matter how hard I try, I'm never enough. I never "fit." Even if I pull off an excellent performance so the other people don't really notice anything "off" about me, I've worked so hard to perform, that I'm exhausted and more alone because no one "knows" me. If I try to just "be myself"...I don't really know what that is, having never been allowed to be myself, having always been misunderstood and misinterpreted...and so of course it comes out all weird and off-putting and awkward, and people avoid me.

I have managed to find 2 or 3 people who say they enjoy being around me, and they know I'm an aspie, and they say I can just be myself around them and it's okay. But I know I'm intense, and apparently it's more draining on them than they let on because none of them spends much time with me (even though I'm still partially performing...still haven't learned how to not do that). A couple of hours a month with one of them. Lunch every few months with another. And the third has pretty much disappeared from the relationship. Actions speak louder than words. I don't want to be a burden on them, so have learned to let them go and only contact them as often as they contact me.

It's possible to "accept" this, yes, but that doesn't take away the loneliness, either. It only makes the loneliness less triggering. You just learn to tolerate the pain of it. At least, that's been my experience so far. It's a cruel cosmic joke, to create a social person with social needs, and no way to meet those needs. And seeing how efforts at being "myself" cause pain to those around me, the shame becomes more deeply rooted, and I use it as a constant reminder to not expect anything more from relationships. I don't want to hurt anyone. I would rather be lonely than be mean or selfish or clingy or the weirdo everyone groans about when they see me coming.

I don't mean to be offensive, either, in my response. It's just that the normal advice doesn't work for an aspie, at least not for me. It's like trying to pour water or roll a ball in an angle house at a theme park, where the whole house is built at an angle and what looks like "down" isn't down at all.

 

[Sideways]

If I try to spend time around people in order to solve the loneliness, it's neutral at best, and severely destabilizing at worst

Would it make it slightly easier if the people-contact occurred as part of a routine?

The people I catch up with socially, I do as a routine. They know that the only way it’s going to work for me is if it’s the same time & place at a fixed interval. That seems to take a lot of the emotional-level work out of it, because the interaction, and even the conversation, is consistent. I know what to expect, I can put on the same performance I did every other time, and after a while it gets to the point where I can usually pull off that routine even on my bad days. It also means the person I’m with gets very familiar with my mannerisms, and they understand that I need to go after a certain time just because that’s the time I go.

Just wondering if maybe that routine might make it just a little bit easier to get that connection and interaction without some of the issues that come with more spontaneous interactions...

 

[Multitudes]

I'm an aspie, and this is the catch-22 I try to explain to people as well. Being alone is energizing, but it doesn't solve the loneliness.

No offence taken at all - I can relate to everything you've said in your post.

I know just what you mean about performing, wearing/hiding behind a mask every day, for years, trying so hard to be acceptable for yourself and for others.. I'm not sure if I've forgotten who I am, or if ingrained reflex makes it impossible to be my real self unless I'm alone.
I learned to tolerate the pain of isolation a long time ago, though, recently, it seems to be getting harder to manage as I get older, depression gets worse and the World doesn't hold the same interest for me as it used to. I think that low self esteem, lack of validation, incur a personal shame that I'm strange, weird, wrong - it's all my fault and I must deserve this.

Would it make it slightly easier if the people-contact occurred as part of a routine?

Routine works for me, but only with two good friends who have an Aspie son - we meet up once, lately twice, a week and I am able to be more myself than I've ever known as, while they don't fully understand Aspergers, they accept that I function differently and are not put off or offended by any 'odd' behavior.
There is/was one other, an Aspie female I met online a few years ago. We decided to explore a more intimate, long distance relationship last year, but issues cropped up in her life and communication has become increasingly sparse..
I've been able to share more of myself with her than anyone I've ever known (routine not required), though I find it difficult lately, when we do talk, as I'm unsure what's happening now..


I've found that the only times I don't feel alone are when I go off hiking by myself in remote areas well away from people, and in the early stage of this relationship - I felt connected with someone for the first time though, unfortunately, the current uncertainty has manifested a curious lethargy I seem unable to push through. Still, I came close to feeling genuinely and deeply happy for the first time, too, and that has been an experience!

 

[Sideways]

Still, I came close to feeling genuinely and deeply happy for the first time, too, and that has been an experience!

So, if that’s a connection you enjoyed? That’ll what you aim for. It’s pretty rare for anyone to strike gold with their very first genuine relationship, we all have to keep at it a few times. What this experience tells you? Is it’s possible or you:)

If going hiking by yourself brings you close to your own kind of happiness, it’s maybe something to make space for in your life. Finding things that bring a genuine sense of calm are rare, and are worth making a commitment to.