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Knowing Your Own Mind

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I'm working through the tests from the link that Eleanor left. I think they're perhaps more productive for me to see the possibilities within my personality. I'm only just beginning therapy, so I have many ptsd thoughts and habits in my life and symptoms of depression. So to be reminded of aspects of my personality that have been shown over the years, helps me to be open to the possibilities.

Woundedsoul, I'm soon to be 39.
 
Happy hunting for yourself Meadowsweet! :) I really do think once you find you, it will help with everything else. Sure, I go through sucky times still, but I at least have the proper tools for 'me' and ways to keep functioning through them. I know it seems easier than it is -- to know 'you'. I do understand the 'not knowing' and how that can happen. I wrote a funny riddle-esk ode to 'knowing' a long time ago ... if I can find it I'll post it here. I think you'll like it -- maybe even give you a few chuckles. :p
 
39, a perfect age. So ripe and full of possibility!:giggle:

I do have quite strong principles and ideals. But many of them have a damaging side because we don't live in my ideal bubble. I guess I can take on my ideals as a core part of my personality. But I need to find sensible barriers to keep safe.

Also, I've struggled with the idea of mindfulness. I can't cope with looking at the details of experiences. But having just sat here eating pringles habitually until I notice that I'm not actually enjoying them, I think it would help to simplify mindfulness to catagorise experience into pleasureable or unpleasant.

I think I'm so conditioned to feel what I'm told I should feel, that I don't have much of a measure of what I actually feel.

Not quite sure what you mean by "having a damaging side". Maybe you could clarify a bit?

The thing about principles is that they are most useful as guides to developing our own response-abilities. When our actions result in damage to ourselves and others and relationships we can use that to help us "wake up" to what is going on inside us - what limited our actions? What response-abilities might we cultivate to be able to deal with such situations more effectively in the future? What were we feeling/thinking and how did it help/hinder us in responding effectively to the world as we found it?

So really identifying the principles is just one more tool to help with developing mindfulness of your own feelings. Just looking for pleasure or pain responses is an excellent place start. You could also set an alarm every three hours or so to remind you to "check in" and see how your body and emotions are feeling. Further along it might also be helpful to look at a list of emotion words and see if you associate different 'feels" with them.

I think the last line I quoted is HUGE. Just HUGE. That realization makes a heck of a difference. :tup::tup:
(In my own case - "why am I not able to file this piece of paper? because of uncertainty about where it goes - an anxious feeling" "Why am I not able to put away this bag of stuff that has been in the hall for two months? What am I feeling? Anxiety." Hmmm. noticing a theme here... start small.)
 
Not quite sure what you mean by "having a damaging side". Maybe you could clarify a bit?

I believe in loyalty (not being a fair weather friend), finding compassion and understanding for others. Looking first at what I can change in myself before critisizing others. Not betraying the personal trust put in me by others.

When you put those principles into an abusive situation, they become detrimental. They are the reasons not to leave, to consistently forgive, to feel empathy for the abuser and to keep what they are doing to yourself.

Thats an extreme situation, but I've had many more one sided friendships too.

Responsability is something I've been brought up with and was one of the principles that attracted me to the group that I was with when I was attacked. It was a principle that was abused there - while some took responsibility, others took the role of pointing out everybody elses responsibilities. In the end I took too much responsibility, but it was a saving grace in helping me find my way out of the group. So I do still hold it as a pronciple, but am wary of it too.
 
I think any personality trait is potentially "damaging". Everything has a light side and a shadow side. Having a good work ethic means job satisfaction/success but you might overwork. Being kind is good for you and others, but you might be taken advantage of. Being impulsive means you grasp opportunities and live adventurously, but you might made bad decisions. I don't think there's any personality trait that doesn't have two sides to it.

I agree that it's about boundaries, needing to be aware of the pitfalls and working to avoid them.

That doesn't detract from having those things as principles, though. That's just who you are.
 
Here is that little tongue twisting ode to 'know' I promised. I wrote it a long time ago when I was frustrated that people couldn't (or wouldn't try to) see things from my point of view. You may need to read it out loud. There are no paragraph breaks because it is one long twisting journey from beginning to end. The fun is getting through it and understanding what was said, lol. :p

I know what I know. Just because you don’t know what I know, doesn’t mean I don’t know what I know. I know you don’t know what I know, but I don’t know what you want me to do about what you don’t know. You know, I don’t know the exact amount of my knows against your knows; it just goes to show, you don’t really know what you know until you can show others what you know against their knows; so they say. Then they all collaborate together, comparing and contrasting, to see if what you know and what they know match up. It usually turns out that your knows and their knows, and sometimes my knows, have some similarities; however, those in-the-know about such things won’t really need to validate their knows against anyone else’s knows. Although, those that don’t need validation tend to be way too secure in their selves than they ought to be; you know?
 
I agree that it's about boundaries, needing to be aware of the pitfalls and working to avoid them.

That doesn't detract from having those things as principles, though. That's just who you are.

I wonder if maybe this is the mistake I make. I see the dark side of having principles and then just don't trust my own mind and beliefs. When maybe I should stick to the pronciples and work at finding the boundaries.

712xx I love that piece of writing, put a smile on my face:) I think I have a poem from when I last felt like this.
 
I believe in loyalty (not being a fair weather friend), finding compassion and understanding for others. Looking first at what I can change in myself before critisizing others. Not betraying the personal trust put in me by others.
If I may suggest an angle on this that might make it easier to at the same time be compassionate to yourself? You should be loyal to others - but not to their pleasures. To be totally loyal we have to be committed to the best in our friends, not the worst in them. This is obvious if we have a choice between being, say loyalty to their desire for alcohol or loyal to their desire to pay the rent. That's not really worth calling loyalty - that is what Kant has in mind when he talks about servility. (Although people who want us to be servile will often label compliance with their desires "loyalty.")

It is less obvious when the virtue or vice in question is not so clear - how loyal do you have to be to someone's desire to be in control? Or to feel good about themselves at all costs? I'm thinking not very. So it always makes sense to check your principles and make sure you are treating everyone in the situation (INCLUDING YOURSELF!!!) with compassion and loyalty. It is a matter of faith, but I've gotten pretty good at this and I have only ever found 3 situations I couldn't unravel and find how to honor all my principles.

When you put those principles into an abusive situation, they become detrimental. They are the reasons not to leave, to consistently forgive, to feel empathy for the abuser and to keep what they are doing to yourself.
In my view, the problem here is not the principles - loyalty, compassion and understanding - it is that you are not treating them as moral/universal principles because you are not applying them to everyone in the situation. Specifically, you are not including YOURSELF in the scope of the principles application. (Hence the inclusion of servility in Kant's list - that is why I like his...) As well, you are not really taking accont of everyone outside the situation - who also has to deal with the "monster" you are supporting, or helping to create with your compliance.

Sorry if that comes across as harsh. I don't mean to blame you in particular, only to point out that the pattern that keeps abusers going is that abusees don't take action against them- if they did the game would have less players and end much sooner. Right? Once you recognize this you can leverage the compassion, understanding and loyalty to others to better protect yourself. You just expand the range of "others" past the abusers. You cultivate loyalty to others in a broader sense, including both yourself and unknown others. You use your principles to help define your boundaries in ways that really are good for everyone.

It also might be worth remembering that "sacrifice" means "trading the lesser good for the greater." A lot of people find they've been thinking it means: "giving up your own good for other people's reasons."

Responsability is something I've been brought up with and was one of the principles that attracted me to the group that I was with when I was attacked. It was a principle that was abused there - while some took responsibility, others took the role of pointing out everybody elses responsibilities. In the end I took too much responsibility, but it was a saving grace in helping me find my way out of the group. So I do still hold it as a pronciple, but am wary of it too.

But that group dynamic is not supporting individuals' responsibility! It is co-dependence! And that encourages selfishness in some and servility in others. Responsibility has two parts - the one being accountability and other being response-ability. When lack of (what would seem like "natural") response-ability to protect yourself on the part of the abusee meets up with lack of (again what sould seem like "natural") responsibility/accountability for their own actions on the part of the abuser(s) it is a dangerous situation for everyone. The tip off of co-dependence in practice is the lack of compassion for the victim, the "necessity" of the victim's swallowing even very large hurts, and the total denial of accountability for specific people's actions.

Every virtue has an excess and a deficiency - or a deficiency and a counterfeit. So, courage is a virtue - and having too little is cowardice. Having "too much" or the counterfeit is foolhardiness. Loyalty is a virtue - and having too little is being "a fair weather friend" but having too much/the counterfeit is servility or "blind loyalty." Compassion is a virtue - and having too little is being insensitive, and too much is being an emotional sponge - a kind of doormat. Does that make any sense?

Hope this is clear and helps! (and isn't just pedantic...)
 
Its not at all pedantic and makes enourmous amounts of sense.

I think it is something I will come back to again and again. Where I am now is ofcourse influenced by a mind that does strange things and doesn't always manage to think sensibly. But that is one of my goals in therapy. So hopefully, putting this learning into practise will become easier.

Thanks for writing all that out, it is a really good explanation.
 
I have hope that sometimes principles can "short circuit" the PTSD loops, at least some times. My H once was super mad at me for "contradicting him all day." He was about to take a shower and I asked him "what did I say? When did I contradict you?" and he couldn't think of anything in the shower - and it helped him de-escalate - gave him a little space from the "loop". He recognized that if there was NO evidence... it must not be true.

The mathematician in "A Beautiful Mind" finally realized and acknowledged his delusional people because, after decades, he realized they hadn't aged - and that was impossible so they must not be real.

So maybe it CAN help having reliable "guidepost beliefs"... Hoping!
 
My PTSD symptoms so far havn't been delusional. They can be over the top, an exagerated response to something that other people don't see any harm in doing. My perception or the meaning I relate to the evidence might be sqewy, but the evidence is there.

As an example, if someone was mad at me, I might react to the possibility that they might kill me. It doesn't mean I've imagined that they are mad at me, its just that I've anticipated something much worse coming out of their anger.

The problem with my principles is that they've been used as part of the psychological manipulation that abusers use. So the dark side of them is part of the loop of re-living stuff and I can't always find the line that makes them a good thing.
 
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