Lets Create A Ptsd Diagnosis - Off-topic Discussion

[Sighs]

@Ragdoll Circus - agree absolutely. I'm certainly not suggesting that those people are not suffering. Being cheated on hurts! Being humiliated in front of others hurts. But I do not believe that it causes the same brain response that Capital T - Trauma causes. To me, its not about whether someone is suffering "more" or "less" as that is purely subjective.

 

[anthony]

if killing or mutilating animals in order to torture or terrorize someone else would ever exist in a context that didn't already qualify as CritA?

This is called criterion creep... and is the single largest issue. The simple answer to this question is, what about all the other diagnoses that exist to adequately cover someones symptoms if their pet is killed, regardless who by?

I am left with feeling like someone doesn't want so many people labeled with PTSD.

You obviously don't spend much time reading or researching PTSD, and have no idea about its controversies. This thread is not going to teach you, and you need to research the issues yourself, as they're diverse and are well documented over the last 20+ years.

I find it really insulting to those who have suffered capital T - Trauma to open the floodgates and say "well, if you were upset by your small t - trauma then you can have the same label

Not really my purpose for this. There are many facets about society as a whole that change over time, and society becomes more sensitive and the result can mimic the same outcome, yet the recovery is often quick compared to legitimate PTSD cases. Many things mimic PTSD symptoms... but it should not mean you have PTSD when your recovery is very rapid or your severity is not severe.

If a person presents to a doctor and says "my husband died"

This is absolutely one of the big issues... there are disorders already surrounding bereavement, and quite honestly, because it takes a person years to grieve, they should not be diagnosed with PTSD just because for their unique personality it takes them years to grieve, and consequently they lost their job, friends, and the snowball effect that occurs from one action, yet under normal circumstance.

 

[Friday]

This is called criterion creep... and is the single largest issue. The simple answer to this question is, what about all the other diagnoses that exist to adequately cover someones symptoms if their pet is killed, regardless who by?

Meant it the other way around... That animals wouldn't need to be added, because they -and all the other fun and exciting things involved in severe abuse & torture- are already covered, right? I was trying to think of exceptions to that (like the media one, where what if CritA media was the only abuse perpetrated on a child)... And failing. If it's in a DV context, torture context, trafficking context, etc., CritA would be met under DV/ torture/ trafficking/ etc. & doesn't need to be met twice.

Just continuing the thought... Some sick shit, like grooming, doesn't meet CritA. Is it still sick? Yep. Within the context of the sexual abuse that follows. Killing a rabbit for dinner, or buying an icecream cone for your kids = radically different than 'Today's adventures in pain and suffering will be animal mutilation' & 'what goes better with rape? Mint chocolate chip or strawberry?' If it never reaches the threshold of larger context? Torture & CSA? Then it's just rabbits & ice cream. It's the context that makes it IMO. But I could be wrong. Often am. Hence the ask. I couldn't think of anything outside of context that made sense.

 

[KwanYingirl]

I proved my point. I can hopefully express my opinion but from the hundreds of peer reviewed articles on PTSD as well as many books that I have read and comprehended, I still feel it is not my job to judge degrees of suffering. It is not my right to judge the opinions of members here that are suffering.

 

[Sideways]

Sexual violence (@Changeling )
Sexual Violence has been expressly recognised by the UN Security Council as a "serious breach" of International Humanitarian Law (Res 1960(2010)), as well as constituting crimes against humanity and genocide in conflict zones (Res 1820(2008)).

The World Health Organisation has recognised both short and long term psychological consequences of sexual violence, including in domestic partnerships or within a larger community structure (WHO Report on Violence & Health, 2002).

Local community attitudes might not be up to scratch on sexual violence, but given it is recognised by both the UN and WHO in this context, it is the local community attiudes, rather than medicine, which need updating.

There remain countries where 80%+ of women still undergo sexual genital mutilation, but irrespective of what the locals in those countries might think of the practice, I'd be prepared to acknowledge psychological consequences of that practice as well, you know!?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I wonder, though, if killing or mutilating animals in order to torture or terrorize someone else would ever exist in a context that didn't already qualify as CritA? My brain just keeps throwing out CritA examples; DV, Trafficking, K&R... & then my mind just shuts off.

I dont understand much of this stuff, i stopped researching it a long time ago cuz it was confusing me; I thought I was understanding it better lately, but then got re-confused here recently; so I might he completely wrong or off but, in my view (have no idea if its Crit. A or something else):

I was forced to slowly kill an animal (kittens usually but rabbits and other small animals were involved) and drained their blood;

That is the single most traumatizing item in my past, i think. Their screams are heard in my head every night, I wake up to in many times a night, and though it was the only ritual I never continued into adulthood, I found myself just last week petting my cat and watching tv and had no clue that I was, with my hand, finding her jugular in her neck like i was taught to back then, automatically (not hurting her, she was purring but i didnt know i was doing it).

I think, that with this single item, forced through age 12 to 18 that it would have caused PTSD.

Again, it all confuses me and i dont know if thats correct and im not researched on PTSD because it all confuses me but thats just my thought.

Other stuff was done with them, with the blood etc, just a thought and probably a wrong thought...

 

[joeylittle]

That is the single most traumatized item in my past, their scream are heard in my head every night,

Why was it horrible, to you? Do you know? (you might not). And what was the detail around 'forced'?

You don't have to answer those questions, they might be too disturbing. I'm just offering this as food for thought. Personally, I don't think the act of killing an animal is necessarily enough to cause PTSD. Killing a human being isn't enough to cause PTSD.

The context around it is what matters.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Why was it horrible, to you?

Actually killing a living being, hearing their screams that arent normal for any animal, draining blood out of it, being forced to buried them, being thrown in the hole with animal carcases thrown on top of me, sleeping inder the window of their 'graves', trying to save one to have his neck broke and thrown on top of me...........

 

[KwanYingirl]

@lostforgottensoul quoted from the DSM-V Criterion A for PTSD is
The person was exposed to: death, threatened death, actual or threatened serious injury, or actual or threatened sexual violence, as follows:
1. Direct exposure
2. Witnessing, in person.
3. Indirectly, by learning that a close relative or close friend was exposed to trauma. If the event involved actual or threatened death, it must have been violent or accidental.
4. Repeated or extreme indirect exposure to aversive details of the event(s), usually in the course of professional duties (e.g. First responders, collecting body parts: professionals repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse). This does not include indirect non-professional exposure through electronic media, television, movies or pictures.

I certainly don't have the skills to tell you one way or the other that your experiences fit under these criteria. There are other stress related disorders and if you'd like to read the other criteria for PTSD you can do a search on the Internet. As you can read here the person is not the cause of the traumatic event. So the argument could be made that you causing the death of the animals does not result in you having PTSD. But what about the things you witnessed? Does that mean you do meet the criteria? See where the water is murky with this disorder? Who decides? Not me. But I can see that you are suffering and for that you have my sympathy. What a horror that must have been for you.

 

[anthony]

And failing. If it's in a DV context, torture context, trafficking context, etc., CritA would be met under DV/ torture/ trafficking/ etc. & doesn't need to be met twice.

Yup... pretty any of those you have mentioned all fall into criteria A as we have rewritten. We haven't tried changing it for the worse, but amending it for what is accurately known for PTSD, removing all the holes that people keep slipping through with. It seems psychiatrists are quite useless at writing diagnoses. To be honest... they should write them, then give them to lawyers to find holes. That is what lawyers do, it is the bread and butter of their job, to find holes in which they can exploit for benefit.

Killing a rabbit for dinner, or buying an icecream cone for your kids = radically different than 'Today's adventures in pain and suffering will be animal mutilation' & 'what goes better with rape?

Again though, everything IS NOT PTSD. You're starting to head down the road of where personality disorders develop, not PTSD. They trump PTSD for severity.

I was forced to slowly kill an animal (kittens usually but rabbits and other small animals were involved) and drained their blood;

This is not a thread to discuss your specific trauma. This is the off-topic aspect for creating a diagnosis. What you're writing is for your diary or elsewhere, not in this thread.

 

[Sideways]

@lostforgottensoul - the things that happened with those animals, you weren't participating because it was all part of a child's learning curve. You were in a situation where there was actual threat of death, catastrophic injury and sexual violence if you didn't participate...personally, I think that fits pretty squarely within criteria A...

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@anthony i didnt post noise, to me, you asked for catigory of symptoms:

Before we get into symptoms themselves, we need to create a structured symptom category profile. I would like to try and fit complex trauma into this.

I was trying to come up with catigories for symptoms. Maybe i missunderstood, im sorry.