Lucid Dreaming?

[Kas_Can_Fly]

I'm looking for any experiences of Lucid Dreaming so feel free to share whoever you are (supporters too), but here is my main query:

I have read a little about Lucid Dreaming and the one thing that is clear is that it very helpful in the prevention of nightmares. I've also read that it's supposed to be useful for PTSD too, although most of the information about Lucid Dreaming and PTSD refers to Combat Vets, which in my case is less relevant as I wish to know (although I'm curious about it on all levels) in specific relation to complex, prolonged, childhood sexual abuse. I'm also curious as to whether it would still retain that level of helpfulness in cases involving dissociation, depersonalisation and derealisation.

Has anyone here encountered/experienced/used Lucid Dreaming to help them either as a natural ability or through some form of therapy. If so what are your opinions of it was it useful, re-traumatasing or unhelpful.

Thanks.

 

[CrazyHorse]

Lucid dreaming can be done and can be helpful for everyone regardless of PTSD etc. It has been practiced for thousands of years in various cultures. First of all, it is quite fun :-) It takes a bit of practise though, and you have to keep it up or you will slip back into your old sleep pattern where you are not awake in your dreams.

Go for it and see how you find it :-)

P.S I will not say lucid dreaming will prevent nightmares per se, but it will help you get control of them.

 

[Hashi]

I've heard this idea about lucid dreaming and nightmares and can't say I think it's a good thing to try if you've been traumatised. I sometimes lucid dream naturally, and something that I find (which I've also heard other people say) is that there's very little between lucid dreaming and hypnagogic/hypnopompic states (really horrible hallucinations when slipping into a state which is neither waking nor being asleep.) I've experienced hypnagogic states as well as lucid dreams, and I experience lucid dreaming as no more than a different point on the same scale. It can be hard to stay on the right side of the scale, and I'd caution any trauma survivor against messing with the mind like this.

Another thing is that lucid dreaming isn't always complete control. It can often be a battle between lucid intention and dream consciousness trying to take you in other directions. That might end up as something like trying to fly, but then keeping hitting things or not being able to take off properly. It might not matter very much if you're just trying to fly, but if you're trying to deal with what happens in a nightmare, things could get really bad. I've had some distressing experiences of trying to fight unpleasant things in dreams with lucidity, which is exhausting, and if it ends up unsuccessful that can make things even worse, for a number of reasons.

More than anything, I think trying to learn lucid dreaming t deal with nightmares is a long, difficult and effortful process that might well have no good results at all. I've heard of people spending a huge amount of time and practice to bring even the tiniest bit of lucidity into their dreams. I can't imagine how someone with PTSD could invest effort and energy into something like this. I'd strongly recommend visualisation instead, because that doesn't involve any esoteric or difficult skills. You don't even have to be able to see pictures in your mind - for me, visualisation is simply consciously imagining in some way, which might be saying something like a story, drawing it, daydreaming it, or other ways.

I've successfully used visualisation to stop nightmares, which is far more straightforward and reliable than attempting lucid dreaming. I have a number of visualisations which are that things both inside myself and outside myself (positive and benevolent towards me) are always watching out for nightmares approaching, and drive them off if they try to get near. I have backup visualisations so that if anything still gets through I'll be woken up in various ways. I've done these visualisations every single day and initially for about an hour a day. Now I only need to do a minute or so, because they're so established. As a result, I haven't had a nightmare, hallucination or flashback for over three years, although sometimes I'm aware that my subconscious has fought one off.

Something I'd emphasise along with that is that I see nightmares and similar as the damaged mind trying to process things and bring them to our attention. My experience is that simply trying to squash that won't work well. They need to come out - but we can shape things so they come out in less distresing ways. In using visualisation to stop this damaged kind of processing and communication, I've had to give my mind a gentler alternative way to communicate trauma to me. That means dreams instead of nightmares, memories instead of flashbacks etc. I have to pay enough attention to the dreams, memories and so on, otherwise my mind is going to start "shouting" again because it's not being heard.

I can't recomnd lucid dreaming generally for a survivor of any kind of trauma, and I wouldn't recommend it as a way to try to deal with nightmares. I'd strongly recommend visualisation though.

 

[Hashi]

Out of interest, what have you read that says it's useful for PTSD?

 

[PurpleSurvivor]

I'm trying to master lucid dreaming, and it has helped me. I became lucid in one of my recurring nightmares and basically started asking things in it what they mean, after that I've had fewer nightmares. I still try to improve, there was one dream last month where I would have loved to talk to my subconscious, but I didn't realize that I was dreaming. It would have been a perfect opportunity to find out more about myself. I was just floating in a white space with a projection of my subconscious, but that projection decided to take a nap and I woke up. I know exactly what I would have started talking about if I had become lucid, I even touched the topic when it was a normal dream. It's not the first time I've had a dream like that, and it won't be the last. I guess I'll just have to try again.

The first time I became lucid I was dreaming about the bullying I went through, and started quoting something from a movie I would see 3 years later. Somehow my memory responded to that, and I remembered that I would see that movie later, which made me realize that I was dreaming. The thing I'll never forget was that at this point the leading bully backed away from me, looking terrified. I started defending myself instead of trying to run and hide, which is my usual reaction in normal dreams. Next thing I knew I woke up and thought "I love lucid dreaming".

 

[CrazyHorse]

I guess it is the same with everything, some find it useful, some do not, but I would disagree that lucid dreaming is an esoteric, difficult skill.

I think the sucsess and good experience comes down to making a plan about what it is you want to accomplish in your lucid dream. I can only speak for myself, but when I am lucid, I know I can do anything I want, so I do not fail, and that is really my defination of lucid dreaming: a world of unlimited possibilities where you are in control and you feel safe, cause you know it is just a dream, and that gives you a chance to turn the tables in your nightmares like PurpleSurvivor explained. I would prefer that any day to the dreams where I am tossed around as a helpless victim.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

what have you read that says it's useful for PTSD?

Err, not a lot. The thing is after reading that Lucid Dreams were helpful for nightmares (I can't even remember what drew my evolving search to Lucid Dreaming, but I ended up there), I searched Lucid Dreaming PTSD and also trauma and Lucid Dreaming, there on the front page I saw several pages all relating to just that and each of them in their description bar seemed to relate positively. From someone saying it was personally useful, to therapeutic treatment for trauma and PTSD involving Lucid Dreaming and some other things. I think I only skimmed over a couple of them and they essentially both said that for vets with PTSD, Lucid Dreaming was useful in improving sleep, combating nightmares and as a result reducing flashbacks.

Now fascinating as that was, other than making me think about it, it was doing two things for me: 1. Relief that there might be a way to reduce nightmares and to take some control over them. 2. Setting off massive warning bells because of the ways I know my traumas affect me. So I took a step back and knowing very little read some very basic beginners FAQs for Lucid Dreaming and saw that yes they were helpful for nightmares, improving sleep etc, etc. But At the same time I read things like, that sounded like grounding within the dream to make sure that you know you are dreaming and vice versa when you're awake.

And there's the thing, I feel so confused by reality when I am awake - I mean I know that everything's real but nothing feels like it (actually the more I try to be sure, usually the less sure I am), neither myself nor my surroundings that I think trying to get a similar level of consciousness in my dreams might add to the confusion. I have enormous problems with dissociation, depersonalisation, derealisation, general confusion, self-doubt and fear that whilst I would love to try this (if it's got a good chance of helping), I don't know if I should be because of my personal issues or maybe not until after quite a bit of therapy.

I would prefer that any day to the dreams where I am tossed around as a helpless victim.

Yes, this is the exact reason I would love to try but I can't seem to keep a grip on my thoughts while I'm awake, is it possible (this is what I'm scared of) that I would have some active role in the dreams and that I may be able to chose my own actions but my dream would still be stronger than me. And also that my heightened awareness of the dream could be potentially more traumatising than what I have already.

I suppose what I'm saying is I don't know if I'm willing to take the risk of it making things worse, I think I would and that I want to if it had a strong possibility of making things better, but I am terrified and would rather things stayed bad than risk them getting worse. :S

 

[Anna]

Lucid dreaming. I do it a lot and when I realise I am asleep and dreaming I tend to fly around in my dreams.

The worst I have experienced is sleep paralysis. I have woken up paralysed and unable to move. I scream out to my family, but of course they cannot hear it. I noticed this happens when I take a nap during the day. Also I have had the old hag where it feels like someone is sitting on my chest. I have heard voices, seen demons and other people in my room. Also felt my arm and toes being touched during this "sleep paralysis" My guess is my brain is not fully awake. So I am dreaming whilst being awake.

The worst was once I saw this white demon like creature with black egg like eyes, it made my legs twist and turn. I kind of had the feeling it was trying to scare me. I thought to myself I wasn't scared and yelled at it to F*off. This seems to work, staying calm and waiting until the paralysis wears off.

Never ceases to amaze me though, the power of the brain over the body, and how you see all kind of freaky things when you are inbetween sleep and consciousness.

 

[CrazyHorse]

is it possible (this is what I'm scared of) that I would have some active role in the dreams and that I may be able to chose my own actions but my dream would still be stronger than me. And also that my heightened awareness of the dream could be potentially more traumatising than what I have already.

I guess it is a possibility. I think it was what Hashi experienced. It is the opposite of my own experience though. The dreams are stronger than me when I am not lucid in them, simply due to the fact that I am not aware it is a dream. When I am lucid, I am aware it is a dream and just by that alone, I am not affected by the dream in a negative way when I wake up.

I would like to add that lucid dreaming has not made me experience more sleep paralysis. I have had SP all my life, and it is a bitch, right Anna? :-) On the contrary, my SP has lessend in frequenzy.

 

[Anna]

I would like to add that lucid dreaming has not made me experience more sleep paralysis. I have had SP all my life, and it is a bitch, right Anna? :-) On the contrary, my SP has lessend in frequenzy.

Yes, it is indeed. I hate not being able to move. As I have grown older, it also occurs less frequently. Strange is seeing your bedroom and not being able to get up. I find I cannot sleep in front of a mirror. Mirror's seem to make it worse?!

About a week ago, I saw a demon in a dream. I was dreaming about work, suddenly it appeared in the dream, stared at me. I woke up and had my pillow clutched across my face shouting "No, go away" at it. Was totally bizarre. It suddenly appeared in a dream turned and looked at me. Was really freaky. Especially as I woke up immediately and put the pillow over my face.

 

[CrazyHorse]

Oh yes, the demon dreams! I have them once in a while. They are so different from normal dreams/nightmares. One demon presented itself to me at one time and said its name was Legion.

Demons appear in my sisters dreams too, and we often talk about it.

 

[Hashi]

Maybe I should have been clearer about my meaning when I said difficult - I meant for people who haven't naturally experienced much (if any) lucid dreaming or sleep paralysis. I know quite a lot of people who've tried to achieve it from scratch, and their experiences are the perspective I'm talking from. They've achieved things, but only with a lot of effort and the effects aren't reliable or consistent.

I would have some active role in the dreams and that I may be able to chose my own actions but my dream would still be stronger than me.

Yes, this is what I meant and what I find exhausting and distressing. I probably wouldn't have experienced this if I did more work with lucid dreaming and strengthened that ability (bearing in mind that I'm starting with quite a high natural ability), but I don't want to because I prefer to work on visualisation and other things instead.

And also that my heightened awareness of the dream could be potentially more traumatising than what I have already.

I've never had the sense that being lucid would make bad dream feelings or experiences more heightened. It's hard to explain, but I think the bad feelings stay at the same level while at the same time there are the other feelings of wanting and trying to change things. In that way it's more intense, because I'm feeling two lots of things instead of only one. But I wouldn't say more traumatising.

There is something I did that was a terible mistake though. The first time I had a lucid dream about trauma I realised I had the chance to access memories that I'd blocked from my conscious mind. The lucid part of me was determined to find these out and was asking one of the dream characters to tell. There was a struggle because my subconscious/dream character resisted strongly, but the lucid me was extremely forceful and overcame the resistance. However, the information had been blocked from my conscious mind for a reason. I wasn't ready to hear it at all, and it was too horrific to know.

This is one reason why I wouldn't deliberately try to bring the two consciousnesses together at the same time (conscious and subconscious). I believe the subconscious has a lot more wisdom and don't think it's a good idea for me to try to dominate it with my conscious mind. I much prefer to create safety (with visualisation) and then let my subconscious process things the way it wants to. I find it always does this better than my thinking mind can.

I have a long history of derealisation and dissociation. In response to your questions here I'm thinking that probably - a) that makes me feel less inclined to trust my conscious mind or want to encourage it to take control in my subconscious dream world and - b) I don't have much experience of consciously finding a way through evil and scary stuff, so I'm likely to make mistakes like I did forcing answers that I wasn't ready for.

I was asking about what you'd read because if it was linked to combat ptsd then there's the possibility that the people had a relatively stable history before trauma, rather than with childhood trauma which I think has all sorts of links with dissociation by defnition. I know there are people with combat ptsd who also had childhood trauma, and I don't know if that's even significant, but I'm wondering about it.