Relationship No intimacy, denies we are in relationship. Need advice!

[Butterfly64]

You can’t think about “what might have been without PTSD”, because there never will be a time without PTSD. That’s him.

I think a lot of supporters have that fantasy. I know I have had it.

No there will never be a time without PTSD, but at the beginning I saw the real him...the one who hugged me and kissed me...the one who wanted a relationship...then PTSD kicked in and his head couldn’t cope with it. So what might have been....the real him I saw....that is hard to let go of. My heart cries for him.

 

[Tinyflame]

Remember though @Butterfly64 , (and I'm only saying from being on both sides), every relationship has issues of inter-connectedness, communication, attachment, commitment, honesty, maturity, etc, etc. And seems to me, I have much to work on simply about myself (the only person I can change). So I imagine most of us also do. Irrespective of ptsd. I've never had a relationship 'not go well'. in the beginning. But it's the long-haul that brings up challenges.

Best wishes to you. :hug:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

at the beginning I saw the real him

Him with PTSD is the real him. He just hide that part of him but him with PTSD is all the real him!

 

[Butterfly64]

Remember though @Butterfly64 , (and I'm only saying from being on both sides), every relationship has issues of inter-connectedness, communication, attachment, commitment, honesty, maturity, etc, etc. And seems to me, I have much to work on simply about myself (the only person I can change). So I imagine most of us also do. Irrespective of ptsd. I've never had a relationship 'not go well'. in the beginning. But it's the long-haul that brings up challenges.

Best wishes to you. :hug:

Thanks ?
I was married twice before I became involved with my ex sufferer...for 13 years with my first husband and 17 years with my second husband.....so I know all about the long-haul ? As for my ex sufferer, we had been friends for four years, so we knew each other well. The first few weeks after we became involved, he showed me what it could have been like. During our four years of friendship, he had been attracted to me the entire time...dreaming of entering a relationship with me....but I was married. When I was divorced, my ex sufferer’s dream finally came true...he had a chance to be with me. But he soon realized that dreaming of being together with me was “safe”...but once it became reality, PTSD kicked in super hard and he stressed out...big time. As soon as I got too close...as soon as it felt too good...too much like a relationship, he would run and come back, run and come back. I have been patient...overly patient...and if he was only able to communicate...if we could talk about how PTSD affects him, if he saw a therapist...then I would be in for the long-haul, but the fact is, he is not in therapy. I can’t force him, so I have walked away....it is the best thing to do for both of us...we were in Limbo for two years.

 

[Tinyflame]

You can’t think about “what might have been without PTSD”, because there never will be a time without PTSD. That’s him.

Yes.

No there will never be a time without PTSD, but at the beginning I saw the real him...the one who hugged me and kissed me...the one who wanted a relationship...then PTSD kicked in

I think it's difficult to simply say that is from ptsd. It could also be other issues, or other issues simultaneously, New and distracting is actually a way to try to deny and ignore the ptsd (temporarily).

Him with PTSD is the real him

I agree. ^^

One thing I feel sadly about (though mostly I feel sadly for what I've done than received), and find quite heartbreaking, is very few seem to understand that ptsd isn't something that can simply be cured in all cases, or turned on and off, and then a person becomes lovable or acceptable. There is no magic pill, and what you see is what you get. (This doesn't mean that all behaviour is acceptable). I (personally) feel more broken after that response than without it.

As for my ex sufferer, we had been friends for four years, so we knew each other well.

I never allowed myself to be known to that degree in (simply) 4 years (maybe he was different?) Being known would include inner thoughts, feelings, doubts. The feelings behind having ptsd (including potentially times of numbness, and/ or ambivalence).

...if we could talk about how PTSD affects him, if he saw a therapist...then I would be in for the long-haul, but the fact is, he is not in therapy. I can’t force him, so I have walked away....it is the best thing to do for both of us.

Beginning therapy (and for sometimes very very long thereafter) it gets worse, rather than better. It's said going through it the 2nd time is worse than the first. It would likely produce a new set of problems and challenges- worse potentially than these now, by definition. By long haul I don't mean suffering or forbearance (though no doubt that and much forgiveness and heartache would likely be involved), but rather knowing yourself and setting boundaries. Coming to know what conditions attracted you to your ex's, what contributed to the dissolutions, what your expectations are, and what qualities and health others need to have to meet you 1/2 way. And what their expectations are of you. Etc.

I am glad you are being pro-active in what you want and need. You should choose what is best for you (not think for him. He only can think for himself and decide what is best for him).

I'm very sorry it's been so difficult and sad. It's too bad the talking didn't begin at the start of the limbo. But it really takes two. :(

But I did hear a very interesting definition of 'intimacy': 'In-to-me-you-see'. Which is much more than sex, or hopes and dreams. It's all of it, good and bad, fears, faults and all.

 

[Butterfly64]

Him with PTSD is the real him. He just hide that part of him but him with PTSD is all the real him!

Well I guess that is a matter of semantics...? let’s just say, that for a few weeks I saw who he was before

Yes.

I think it's difficult to simply say that is from ptsd. It could also be other issues, or other issues simultaneously, New and distracting is actually a way to try to deny and ignore the ptsd (temporarily).

I agree. ^^

One thing I feel sadly about (though mostly I feel sadly for what I've done than received), and find quite heartbreaking, is very few seem to understand that ptsd isn't something that can simply be cured in all cases, or turned on and off, and then a person becomes lovable or acceptable. There is no magic pill, and what you see is what you get. (This doesn't mean that all behaviour is acceptable). I (personally) feel more broken after that response than without it.

I never allowed myself to be known to that degree in (simply) 4 years (maybe he was different?) Being known would include inner thoughts, feelings, doubts. The feelings behind having ptsd (including potentially times of numbness, and/ or ambivalence).

Beginning therapy (and for sometimes very very long thereafter) it gets worse, rather than better. It's said going through it the 2nd time is worse than the first. It would likely produce a new set of problems and challenges- worse potentially than these now, by definition. By long haul I don't mean suffering or forbearance (though no doubt that and much forgiveness and heartache would likely be involved), but rather knowing yourself and setting boundaries. Coming to know what conditions attracted you to your ex's, what contributed to the dissolutions, what your expectations are, and what qualities and health others need to have to meet you 1/2 way. And what their expectations are of you. Etc.

I am glad you are being pro-active in what you want and need. You should choose what is best for you (not think for him. He only can think for himself and decide what is best for him).

I'm very sorry it's been so difficult and sad. It's too bad the talking didn't begin at the start of the limbo. But it really takes two. :(

But I did hear a very interesting definition of 'intimacy': 'In-to-me-you-see'. Which is much more than sex, or hopes and dreams. It's all of it, good and bad, fears, faults and all.

The last time we were together he said, that he had wanted me for a long time before it actually happened, and when it finally did, things didn’t just fall into place for him....somehow he expected getting me, would...not make PTSD go away, but he expected things to get a lot better for him. When that obviously did not happen, he started the dance of push-pull because being with me made his head explode...due to constant back pains, prior relationships that weren’t especially successful and PTSD, he survived on a day to day basis (he still does) and the thought of real relationship and the expectations and obligations that entail for him, he couldn’t go through with relationship, but he couldn’t let go of me either.

He is quite social and has many friends...both men and women are drawn to him due to his charm and warmth. According to him, most of the times, he forces himself to be social in order not to isolate completely. I did not know about his PTSD when we first became involved....I had no clue! He only mentioned that about seven months later....maybe he forgot...he did mention that being trapped in the system of trying to get his early retirement for app. 6-7 years, had affected his memory ( he forgets stuff) and also affected him mentally. So when he finally mentioned PTSD I did some research online...only problem is, that in my country, the information about PTSD is inadequate....it was not until I found this Forum, that I really learned what the sufferers go through...hell! Had I known that before, my approach to him would have been different....I would not have pushed him for intimacy and relationship....I would have trusted him, when he said a year ago, that him keep coming back to me is him showing me, that he loves me...he just can’t tell me directly in words.

You are absolutely right about the talking should have stated in the beginning! For some reason he couldn’t do that....he is a very proud guy...I think that maybe he hates the fact of him having PTSD so much, that maybe he doesn’t tell his friends about it...which is wrong in so many ways. Actually he has no need to talk about his mental condition....whenever I said that he ought to be in therapy, he would just go...some day, I don’t have the energy for that now. He used to work in family therapy! He knows how important it is for people with personal issues to see a therapist! And yet he has not done so himself so far! Maybe he is in complete denial...I don’t know...maybe he thinks that a therapist can’t help him...and I could not ask him, because he would just give me a blah blah answer! About a month ago I texted him that if we were to continue seeing each other....just as friends to start of with...that would entail that we could talk about his PTSD...that he would allow me to ask questions because I need to understand him better....but he replied that he doesn’t want to talk about it. So there is nothing I can do, but walk away. This is his struggle, not mine. I would gladly have stood by his side because he is truly a remarkable, strong, intelligent and lovable man and he loved me as best as he could, but having loved me for for years and finally getting me could obviously not cure PTSD...it only made PTSD flare up even more...made his head explode with fear of having to take responsibility of being in a relationship when he can barely take responsibility for himself....when he has to take one day at a time. So the only right thing to do is walk away...maybe when I am not around to make him feel guilty, to fuel his desire for me, he will find the energy to go to therapy.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

One thing I feel sadly about (though mostly I feel sadly for what I've done than received), and find quite heartbreaking, is very few seem to understand that ptsd isn't something that can simply be cured in all cases, or turned on and off, and then a person becomes lovable or acceptable. There is no magic pill, and what you see is what you get. (This doesn't mean that all behaviour is acceptable). I (personally) feel more broken after that response than without it.

I don't mean behavior. I mean him with PTSD. PTSD isn't cureable. Manageable, yes, but not cureable. Him with PTSD is the real him no matter what behaviors he has. There are unacceptable behaviors and acceptable behaviors and there are behaviors that another wouldn't accept and behaviors that another would. But him with PTSD is still him.

Not sure if that makes better sense or not.

Well I guess that is a matter of semantics...? let’s just say, that for a few weeks I saw who he was before

No, it's not semantics. You are seperating him and PTSD and unless you were seeing him before his trauma then now is still the real him just as the time he was intimate. It's just that his symptoms were not getting in his way of being intimate back then but they are now. But the entire time it was the real him. Then and now.

he survived on a day to day basis (he still does)

We all do to an extent. Some are more day to day then others. But, unless healed or mostly healed, we are all going at this day to day or very near day to day. At least when sympthomatic.

I had no clue! He only mentioned that about seven months later....maybe he forgot.

Doubt he forgot. Typically when I have advised people, they instantly bolt or they are stuck in a "don't understand" dance and end up making things really worse for me. Likely he didn't want that bombshell to ruin the relationship he had already built.

Plus advising is a very intimate thing to do. I am advising to you that I am basically broken and this horrible trauma happened to me that broke me. Yeah, very personal and intimate and I don't advise most people. Even friends and family. Most have no idea.

About a month ago I texted him that if we were to continue seeing each other....just as friends to start of with...that would entail that we could talk about his PTSD...that he would allow me to ask questions because I need to understand him better....but he replied that he doesn’t want to talk about it.

He may be thinking that you mean the actually trauma. Which no one but my therapist is privey to. That is something supporters just don't need to know about.

If you ever talk to him again about it, I would be clear that you mean PTSD symptoms and not the actual trauma and that you wouldn't ask about the trauma. And on that flip side, don't ask him about the trauma. Just those symptoms that effect you too.

Push and pull is very normal for a PTSD realtionship. I am seeing you mention that a lot so just advising here. There should be boundries around it but push and pull is normal.

That said, he does need to be in therapy. Untreated PTSD is a bitch and I am glad you made your boundry there, personally

 

[Tinyflame]

I don't mean behavior. I mean him with PTSD. PTSD isn't cureable. Manageable, yes, but not cureable. Him with PTSD is the real him no matter what behaviors he has. There are unacceptable behaviors and acceptable behaviors and there are behaviors that another wouldn't accept and behaviors that another would. But him with PTSD is still him.

Not sure if that makes better sense or not.

Sorry, ^^ i didn't make sense. That IS what I meant.
,

I did not know about his PTSD when we first became involved....I had no clue! He only mentioned that about seven months later....maybe he forgot...

I think it's like a piece of broken glass in your shoe- hard to forget. Talking about it involves trust, acceptance, and truth. With some degree of assurance it won't be used against you, and some requirement the person has a need to know. If nothing else to not blame themself. And taking ownership of your own 'stuff'. And most of all- trust, of the person and all those things.

.maybe when I am not around to make him feel guilty,

I've rarely found guilt to be a motivator. Guilt, or being triggered, or mistrust, or fear, or shame, lead to avoidance for me. Same behaviour, different geneses.

Push and pull is very normal for a PTSD realtionship. I am seeing you mention that a lot so just advising here. There should be boundries around it but push and pull is normal.

^^ Agree. Avoidant attachment is another, and may or may not show up necessarily in friendship.

No, it's not semantics. You are seperating him and PTSD and unless you were seeing him before his trauma then now is still the real him just as the time he was intimate. It's just that his symptoms were not getting in his way of being intimate back then but they are now. But the entire time it was the real him. Then and now.

^^ Agree with this also.

But, unless healed or mostly healed, we are all going at this day to day or very near day to day

And this. ^^

Plus advising is a very intimate thing to do. I am advising to you that I am basically broken and this horrible trauma happened to me that broke me. Yeah, very personal and intimate and I don't advise most people. Even friends and family. Most have no idea.

^^ Also agree.

If you ever talk to him again about it, I would be clear that you mean PTSD symptoms and not the actual trauma and that you wouldn't ask about the trauma. And on that flip side, don't ask him about the trauma. Just those symptoms that effect you too.

^^ Also agree, as per the comfort level in your relationship.

I think (for anyone), what we think they 'ought' to do, may or may not be what they should choose. He has to find what works for him.

@Freida's thread '"What are they Thinking?" might provide better insight. PTSD is not something that can be romanticized. Which is also part of why it's not talked about, IMHO.

 

[Butterfly64]

I don't mean behavior. I mean him with PTSD. PTSD isn't cureable. Manageable, yes, but not cureable. Him with PTSD is the real him no matter what behaviors he has. There are unacceptable behaviors and acceptable behaviors and there are behaviors that another wouldn't accept and behaviors that another would. But him with PTSD is still him.

Not sure if that makes better sense or not.



No, it's not semantics. You are seperating him and PTSD and unless you were seeing him before his trauma then now is still the real him just as the time he was intimate. It's just that his symptoms were not getting in his way of being intimate back then but they are now. But the entire time it was the real him. Then and now.



We all do to an extent. Some are more day to day then others. But, unless healed or mostly healed, we are all going at this day to day or very near day to day. At least when sympthomatic.



Doubt he forgot. Typically when I have advised people, they instantly bolt or they are stuck in a "don't understand" dance and end up making things really worse for me. Likely he didn't want that bombshell to ruin the relationship he had already built.

Plus advising is a very intimate thing to do. I am advising to you that I am basically broken and this horrible trauma happened to me that broke me. Yeah, very personal and intimate and I don't advise most people. Even friends and family. Most have no idea.



He may be thinking that you mean the actually trauma. Which no one but my therapist is privey to. That is something supporters just don't need to know about.

If you ever talk to him again about it, I would be clear that you mean PTSD symptoms and not the actual trauma and that you wouldn't ask about the trauma. And on that flip side, don't ask him about the trauma. Just those symptoms that effect you too.

Push and pull is very normal for a PTSD realtionship. I am seeing you mention that a lot so just advising here. There should be boundries around it but push and pull is normal.

That said, he does need to be in therapy. Untreated PTSD is a bitch and I am glad you made your boundry there, personally

He told about the assaults app. 6 years ago...maybe 5. How he was assaulted by mentally ill, violent men at his job. I am not sure that his PTSD only stems from that though...I think it simply got worse and worse from being trapped in the system for many years before he obtained early retirement.
As for now, we both need a looong break from each other...I don’t think it will permanent, not with 6 years of history between us. I am definitely not going to se him until I have fallen out of love with him...and then it would still be a risk to see each other...even if a couple of years went by, I am sure the mutual attraction is still there? I know that even if he goes to therapy, PTSD will still be there and right now, I don’t think I ever want him back....these two past years have been hard, so if he asks me for another chance down the line...I don’t think I would dare to risk having my heart broken again

 

[Butterfly64]

Sorry, ^^ i didn't make sense. That IS what I meant.
,

I think it's like a piece of broken glass in your shoe- hard to forget. Talking about it involves trust, acceptance, and truth. With some degree of assurance it won't be used against you, and some requirement the person has a need to know. If nothing else to not blame themself. And taking ownership of your own 'stuff'. And most of all- trust, of the person and all those things.


I've rarely found guilt to be a motivator. Guilt, or being triggered, or mistrust, or fear, or shame, lead to avoidance for me. Same behaviour, different geneses.

^^ Agree. Avoidant attachment is another, and may or may not show up necessarily in friendship.


^^ Agree with this also.

And this. ^^

^^ Also agree.

^^ Also agree, as per the comfort level in your relationship.

I think (for anyone), what we think they 'ought' to do, may or may not be what they should choose. He has to find what works for him.

@Freida's thread '"What are they Thinking?" might provide better insight. PTSD is not something that can be romanticized. Which is also part of why it's not talked about, IMHO.

Avoidant attachment...the push-pull....he only did that with me, because it is much easier to spend time with family and friends...both male and female....because they are just friends...whereas I was so much more.

 

[Freida]

According to him, most of the times, he forces himself to be social in order not to isolate completely.

yep.

You are absolutely right about the talking should have stated in the beginning!

Nope. Not talking about ptsd anyway. I have people who have been in my life for decades who have no idea I have it. because of this....

I am advising to you that I am basically broken and this horrible trauma happened to me that broke me. Yeah, very personal and intimate and I don't advise most people. Even friends and family. Most have no idea.

people will either take me as I am or they wont. I'm trying to get on top of my issues and change my behaviors, but I know there are people around me who think one day my fairy godmother will come down and bop me on the head and I'll be all better. I'll be the person they want me to be.

that's never going to happen

It's a tough thing for me to admit

Its something my ts have been working on forever --- that there is no magic wand. I'm always going to push/pull, I'm always going to have triggers and symptoms and run when I'm scared. The best I can hope for is to manage it better. So I will have a very small group of people in my life who can accept me as me. And I'm ok with that

I think its a good thing that you know yourself well enough to know this kind of relationship is not for you. That deserves some major kudos :)

 

[Butterfly64]

yep.

Nope. Not talking about ptsd anyway. I have people who have been in my life for decades who have no idea I have it. because of this....


people will either take me as I am or they wont. I'm trying to get on top of my issues and change my behaviors, but I know there are people around me who think one day my fairy godmother will come down and bop me on the head and I'll be all better. I'll be the person they want me to be.

that's never going to happen

It's a tough thing for me to admit

Its something my ts have been working on forever --- that there is no magic wand. I'm always going to push/pull, I'm always going to have triggers and symptoms and run when I'm scared. The best I can hope for is to manage it better. So I will have a very small group of people in my life who can accept me as me. And I'm ok with that

I think its a good thing that you know yourself well enough to know this kind of relationship is not for you. That deserves some major kudos :)

Thanks ??