Question about people being "charming" (also in the context of grooming)

[Ecdysis]

I'm not sure if I've put this thread in the right place, so please move it, as appropriate.

I'm still trying to "understand" the abusive relationship I got into.

It was with someone who was incredibly "charming" and who did a love-bombing thing as an adult version of grooming and then one day, that suddenly turned around completely, Jekyll and Hyde style and things became abusive and dark and toxic and weird.

I'm still trying to work out what drew me to this person, why the factor of him being "charming" seemed to give him a "pass" as to all my hyper-vigilance security scanning...

I was just watching an interview on Times Radio between the UK politician and radio presenter Ed Vaizey (who I find very charming and kind of have a crush on) and two political journalists that came on his show and who were utterly "un-charming"... I dunno what the opposite is, but kinda bland/ non-descript. (I don't mean this to be a personal judgement regarding any of them, so anyone who comments, please be polite and respectful. I just watched this interview and was transfixed, because it's such a good example of the issue that I'm trying to understand.)

I should also say that this isn't Ed Vaizey at his most charming... There's lots of videos of him being ultra-charming and kind of flirty (for want of a better word) with whoever he's talking to. It doesn't feel like an inappropriate kind of flirty to me tho - just charming/ attentive/ gaze into your eyes/ cute grin type of thing...

At the same time, I've had to learn by my own shitty experience, that this kind of "charming" thing is something that perp's can be really good at - it can be a trap for something very sinister and broken.

Having said that, it's normal, as a human to respond to someone being "charming", isn't it?

I feel like I've lost all bearing on this topic... I see people being charming these days and think "Oh, a (covert?) narcissist/ a perp!" and while that feels like a crazy over-reaction, it also feels like there's a core of truth to it... I just dunno...

 

[Rose White]

Don’t have much to say other than I think about this too. Interested in the conversation. Makes me think of Morrissey singing “This Charming Man.”

 

[Friday]

I feel like I've lost all bearing on this topic... I see people being charming these days and think "Oh, a (covert?) narcissist/ a perp!" and while that feels like a crazy over-reaction, it also feels like there's a core of truth to it... I just dunno...

That’s the trauma response painting all _______ equals ________. (Cognitive Distortion)

((Technically there are 4 cognitive distortions JUST in what I quoted above. Jumping to conclusions, reverse logic fallacy, labeling & mislabeling, emotional reasoning.))

And it “feels” right (emotional reasoning), because our brains are doing exactly what they were designed to do, and learning / associating hot burner equals burned. EXCEPT??? The trauma thing means our brains are latching onto random shiny elements (triggers & stressors) that happened to be around at the time, to associate together. So they’re completely wrong. As wrong as if we touched a hot burner and associated the neighbors dog barking, or the lace curtains above the sink blowing in the breeze as the dog barked, or the new shoes were wearing… as what’s “hot”.

- Charming people in general? Stressor.
- Specific inflections of voice, a glint in the eye, a quirk of a grin, etc.? Trigger
- My Abuser = Charming (therefore!) Charming = Abuser <<< Reverse logic fallacy*

 

[Weemie]

Being charming is a social skill, it can be used for good or ill. Just like manipulation, it is neutral. Abusers will use these skills to harm, normal people use them to put others at ease or direct the flow of conversation. You can't accurately predict who will or won't hurt you based on traits that aren't abusive.

All you can do is move through life with strong boundaries, which makes it harder for predators to target you. It still doesn't make you safe, though. That's a fallacy, there's no such thing as absolute safety. If someone gives you red flags and you want to stop talking to them? Well within your rights. That's a solid boundary.

But believing every charming person is a red flag, because some abusers are charming? You can, you're allowed to. But it'll make it difficult for you to have a real social group, since you will be trying to stay ahead and mind-read everyone.

 

[Friday]

'm still trying to "understand" the abusive relationship I got into.

It was with someone who was incredibly "charming" and who did a love-bombing thing as an adult version of grooming and then one day, that suddenly turned around completely, Jekyll and Hyde style and things became abusive and dark and toxic and weird.

I'm still trying to work out what drew me to this person,

Before you realized you were in an abusive relationship, what would your answer have been for why you were drawn to him?

why the factor of him being "charming" seemed to give him a "pass" as to all my hyper-vigilance security scanning...

That’s one of the fundamental aspects of charm/charisma; saying/doing just. the. right. thing. So I’d give yourself a pass on THAT one!!! However? You might look at other components of charm & charisma to see what was filling a need/want/desire.

A teeny tiny minority of people are just naturally charismatic, but it’s such a desirable trait (especially for prospective leaders) that a tremendous amount of time/energy/studies/thinkers over the course of eons… in order to learn those skills… that it’s one of the “easier” things to look up to find answers to things one can’t quite verbalize.

For some modern examples?

- Forbes defines charisma as containing 3 core attributes; Presence, Power, & Warmth. <<< So if you have a history of feeling unseen/unheard, unsafe, unloved? BOOM! Moth to a flame, right there.

- Psych Today lists confidence, exuberance, optimism, expressive body language, and a passionate voice (amongst BIG others, like trustworthy, respected & respectful, profoundly empathetic)….

Ancient Examples (Greeks/Romans/Etc.) go into other -just as relevant- examples that I’m going to skip over for now, as you can undoubtedly read faster than I type… ditto any more modern examples… as it’s a fun rabbit hole to fall down! Because those ZINGS! of recognition? Aren’t wrong. The. Abuse. Was. Wrong. The positive attributes / things you want in your life, or a partner, (who IS NOT abusive)? The truest desires of your heart? Are both good shivers & tingles down your spine (putting words/giving voice) & very very key in NOT cutting yourself off from them (throwing the baby out with the bath water) because your abusive ex was also charming/charismatic.

 

[BuildingSelf24]

I'm not sure if I've put this thread in the right place, so please move it, as appropriate.

I'm still trying to "understand" the abusive relationship I got into.

It was with someone who was incredibly "charming" and who did a love-bombing thing as an adult version of grooming and then one day, that suddenly turned around completely, Jekyll and Hyde style and things became abusive and dark and toxic and weird.

I'm still trying to work out what drew me to this person, why the factor of him being "charming" seemed to give him a "pass" as to all my hyper-vigilance security scanning...

I was just watching an interview on Times Radio between the UK politician and radio presenter Ed Vaizey (who I find very charming and kind of have a crush on) and two political journalists that came on his show and who were utterly "un-charming"... I dunno what the opposite is, but kinda bland/ non-descript. (I don't mean this to be a personal judgement regarding any of them, so anyone who comments, please be polite and respectful. I just watched this interview and was transfixed, because it's such a good example of the issue that I'm trying to understand.)

I should also say that this isn't Ed Vaizey at his most charming... There's lots of videos of him being ultra-charming and kind of flirty (for want of a better word) with whoever he's talking to. It doesn't feel like an inappropriate kind of flirty to me tho - just charming/ attentive/ gaze into your eyes/ cute grin type of thing...

At the same time, I've had to learn by my own shitty experience, that this kind of "charming" thing is something that perp's can be really good at - it can be a trap for something very sinister and broken.

Having said that, it's normal, as a human to respond to someone being "charming", isn't it?

I feel like I've lost all bearing on this topic... I see people being charming these days and think "Oh, a (covert?) narcissist/ a perp!" and while that feels like a crazy over-reaction, it also feels like there's a core of truth to it... I just dunno...

I totally relate to this. After being with someone who ended up reneging on all his promises and lying about himself last year, I went through the same phase. I think it’s natural to look for signs we missed and try to find patterns so we don’t end up in the same scenario. Can’t say I’m completely out of the phase. The sense of safety that I feel being hyper vigilant is kind of intoxicating.

I think it’s hard to come to terms with the fact that even with all of our hyper vigilance someone slipped through the cracks. But unless you missed giant red flags in the beginning (like I did lol), he was just good at being manipulative. The important thing is that you left when his mask slipped. You can pat yourself on the back for that instead of being hard on yourself thinking you must of missed something and looking for a way to prevent it in the future. You left and you’ll likely leave again if faced with someone so duplicitous.

 

[Ecdysis]

Thanks @all

I don't think it's as simple as "charming behaviour has become a trigger"... tho I guess it's a part of it.

I think whatever it is that I now find concerning about "charming" behaviour is subtler/ deeper than that, but I can't quite put my finger on it/ can't word it right.

I'll have to let it percolate in my brain a bit, to see if I can make better sense of it.

I think looking at the definitions you posted @Friday may hold some clues. Thank you.

Edit to add: since I developed this hideous depression, being charming myself is something I have zero energy for and my affect is sooooo flat

But, I used to be able to do it. In part, I think it's a "skill" I learned growing up in an abusive situation - learning to read and respond to peoples' micro-cues and "co-dependently" putting all my own needs aside and focusing fully on the other person. This can feel charming to a lot of people who love the attention and feel seen and heard and validated and held in positive regard. I guess it's similar to what our T's do - focus warmly/ kindly on us. I've been told over the years "You should become a therapist - you'd be great at it!" (Which is not true, I definitely wouldn't be great at it, but people's responses showed that I'm "good at" that co-dependent thing of "putting someone else first")

Hmm... lots to mull on...

 

[Ecdysis]

I took this question into my Ketamine session today... I like to view each session like a shamanic vision quest journey... as opposed to just some chemical process... So I take a deep question that's part of my depression/trauma mix into the session with me and see what happens.

It was a super intense session, probably the most intense so far, except maybe the initial session, which was intense cos it was the first.

It's hard to put it into words, but it feels different now. Calmer, gentler, not as urgent.

Still a way to go until I can resolve it, but grateful for progress of any kind.

 

[Muttly]

I am glad your last session was helpful.

I don't have a lot of thoughts but it's a very interesting topic to me. I think, for me, getting at the core of what pulls me towards a certain charming person is key. My paternal grandfather was charming, but he was so openly sexist, racist and abusive that I just disliked him intensely. My brother was charming and had a serious case of hero-worship in spite of the fact that he regularly abused me./

 

[Rose White]

I used to be able to do it. In part, I think it's a "skill" I learned growing up in an abusive situation - learning to read and respond to peoples' micro-cues and "co-dependently" putting all my own needs aside and focusing fully on the other person

I get this. I interpreted it as “ I am manipulative “ for a long time. But I guess growing up in an abusive situation everyone is manipulating each other, including the enabler. That was my conclusion anyway.

 

[Rose White]

growing up in an abusive situation everyone is manipulating each other, including the enabler.

In my family dynamic the enabler can end up being seen as the one who caused it all. The abuser can be seen as like a grizzly bear who shouldn’t be poked and the enabler like the person who won’t stop poking. That’s how my mom viewed her parents. Her abusive dad wasn’t manipulative just tired (and drunk) but her weaseling mom couldn’t leave well enough alone and perpetually took pot shots at him until he couldn’t help himself and roared and smacked her. That’s the narrative anyway. That there’s a sort of purity to the abuser and a manipulative quality to the enabler. And I am repeating that story sometimes with my parents. That my dad was a pathological pedo/narcissist/abuser/on-the-spectrum (who couldn’t help himself) and my mom manipulated him for the money. But in my case I’m not saying my mom provoked him to abuse me. And so many women, especially from older generations had to make great sacrifices to secure money in order to raise their kids.

Anyway I am definitely rambling and processing some shit which is probably not very relevant.

Regarding the charming; I used to see my dad put on his charming mask when we were at a party and it was so… strange. It was a side that we at home never were on the receiving end of. As I got older I heard some people complain that he was “too much” in the sense of trying too hard to seem interested. My mom was very charming because she worked as a receptionist so it was kind of conditioned in her to be that way with patients and doctors to some extent.

I embodied that, being a pleaser, and still fall into it sometimes. My oldest son seems to have picked it up as well and he said it can be draining sometimes.

 

[Tinyflame]

I heard (from criminology) being charming is an act- not a character trait. So not bad in itself, and sometimes almost innate to an individual, but I just don't assume it comes from a place of deep authenticity. Tbh a lot of celebrities (as above), women or men, they call charming I find pretty phony. More like a sales pitch.

((Technically there are 4 cognitive distortions JUST in what I quoted above. Jumping to conclusions, reverse logic fallacy, labeling & mislabeling, emotional reasoning.))

^^ I think this and @Friday 's post is brilliant. How did I never learn this?? This is much easier to remember and apply than trying to go through all the cognitive distortions. Loved the examples also. First time someone ever explained in a way I could understand why emotional reasoning is a distortion too. Thank you. @Ecdysis I would really focus there.

I think it's reasonable @Ecdysis to try to understand and thus avoid repeating what we have suffered, and make sense of it. But sometimes I think it's important to remember we can't control everything, in particular because we only know what we know at any given time. I hope you give yourself credit for what you don't regret, also, in the process of learning to trust yourself and a few, at least select, others.